Wikipedia:Candidatos a artículo destacado

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Nominaciones

Libelos de Littlehampton

Nominadores: SchroCat ( discusión ) 17:52, 16 de octubre de 2024 (UTC)[ responder ]

Los libelos de Littlehampton son una de esas notas a pie de página de notas a pie de página de la historia. Se enviaron algunas cartas levemente insultantes por una pequeña ciudad, y dieron lugar a cuatro juicios y dos apelaciones, e involucraron al Director de la Fiscalía, al Asesor Jurídico del Tesoro, a un detective de alto rango de Scotland Yard y al Presidente del Tribunal Supremo. La culpable, Edith Swan, engañó a tres jurados y dos jueces, hizo que otra mujer fuera enviada a prisión dos veces y fue declarada inocente antes de ser finalmente condenada. Y luego Olivia Coleman la interpretó en una película. Este es un artículo nuevo y espero cualquier comentario constructivo. Saludos – SchroCat ( discusión ) 17:52, 16 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Universidad de California

Guardando un espacio por ahora. UndercoverClassicist ^{T · C} 19:18, 16 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Soporte de Crisco 1492

• Lede se siente un poco pesado: ¿hay alguna posibilidad de simplificarlo un poco?
• "Dos mujeres de unos treinta años, ambas de pelo negro". ¿En la treintena o en la década de 1930? Dado que la fuente data de 1921, creo que se trata de lo primero, pero quería confirmarlo. Creo que una redacción menos ambigua ayudaría.
• En diciembre de 1920 fue declarada culpable y encarcelada durante dos semanas. El sujeto de esta oración era "Swan". Es posible que sea necesario volver a redactarla.
• Está basado en la costa sur de Inglaterra. ¿Es correcto en inglés? Sé que quiero agregar una "" después de "Inglaterra".
• Kent: Podría valer la pena incluir un enlace para los lectores no británicos.
• por varios vecinos - probablemente tan explícito como lo da la fuente, pero "varios vecinos" parece una cobardía.

  Eso es lo mejor que puedo decir, según la fuente. - SchroCat ( discusión ) 08:27 17 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

• Aunque había sido despedida - La misma pregunta, ¿es correcto en inglés? Normalmente diría "aunque había sido despedida"
• Con mi resolución actual (4k, zoom de 200% + 125%) los dos mapas se superponen, lo que hace que la prosa tenga la forma de una "pistola de dedo". ¿Hay alguna manera de dividir el texto de forma un poco más elegante?

  No lo creo (intentar formatear en función de la ubicación de la imagen es una locura, creo). Tengo una pantalla ancha y no causa problemas, y mejora con pantallas más estrechas. - SchroCat ( discusión ) 08:27, 17 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

• fingiendo que Rose todavía estaba en la casa, para intentar engañar a los Swans haciéndoles creer que ella todavía estaba en Littlehampton - todavía... todavía
• Formularios de registro nacional: ¿vale la pena agregar un enlace rojo?

  No lo creo (advertencia: esto se basa únicamente en una búsqueda en la web, en lugar de una investigación profunda). - SchroCat ( discusión ) 08:27, 17 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

• Casas Swans y Goodings: como son posesivos, ¿deberían tener apóstrofes?
• que Gooding y Russell le habían pedido prestado papel secante. Bill Gooding y Russell negaron haberlo pedido prestado. Parece que estamos repitiendo los nombres.

  Intenta aclarar que en la primera instancia se trataba de Rose y en la segunda de Bill. He intentado ser coherente refiriéndome a Rose como "Gooding" y luego marcando con el dedo cuando hablo de Bill. - SchroCat ( discusión ) 08:27 17 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

• En julio de 1921 se escuchó una apelación ante el Tribunal de Apelaciones Penales ; Travers Humphreys era el abogado que comparecía en nombre de Gooding; dijo al tribunal que comparecía habiendo sido instruido personalmente por el Fiscal General y que la apelación tenía la aprobación del Ministro del Interior; el tribunal anuló ambas condenas de Gooding sin escuchar ninguna de las pruebas. - Esto es un poco prolijo. Aparte de los dos puntos y coma (si no recuerdo mal, fuera de una lista con comas, la prescripción es un máximo de dos oraciones unidas por un punto y coma), parece que falta un verbo entre "la aprobación del Ministro del Interior" y "el tribunal anuló ambas".
• Para follar a la vieja puta May, 49, Western Rd, Local - ¿Coma después del 49 en el original? (a juzgar por la ortografía neybor , sospecho que sí... y hablando de neybor , puede justificar un {{ sic }} basado en WP:SIC )

  La coma está ahí. Es la forma en que me enseñaron a escribir la dirección en los sobres hace mucho tiempo, aunque ahora la etiqueta ha cambiado en ese punto. - SchroCat ( discusión ) 08:27 17 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

• Se reanudaron a principios de 1923. ... En octubre de 1922 - Parece que hay un error tipográfico en uno de estos años.
• ¿Dos fiadores de £25 cada uno, o combinados?

  Lamentablemente, no está aclarado en la fuente. - SchroCat ( discusión ) 08:27 17 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

• El pequeño asunto de las cartas insultantes: "pequeño asunto" suena como un juicio de valor y, por lo tanto, es probable que deba atribuirse.

• Eso es todo por mi parte. Excelente, como siempre. —  Chris Woodrich ( discusión ) 20:51 16 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

  Saludos Chris, todo resuelto, excepto lo comentado anteriormente. - SchroCat ( discusión ) 08:27 17 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

  ¡Excelente! Con apoyo... lectura interesante. El infierno no tiene furia... —  Chris Woodrich ( discusión ) 09:12 17 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

  Gracias Chris. Sí, es un tema interesante: el verdadero misterio es por qué Swan de repente se volvió contra Gooding. Como ella nunca admitió haberlo hecho, no hay explicación de por qué todo salió tan mal entre ellos, o por qué ella tomó ese camino bastante extraño. Saludos - SchroCat ( discusión ) 09:23 17 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Revisión de imágenes

• Varias imágenes usan PD-UK-unknown; según esa plantilla, asegúrese de que la descripción de la imagen analice los pasos tomados para intentar identificar al creador.
• El archivo:William_Stocker_Shaw_postcard.jpg necesita una etiqueta de EE. UU. Nikkimaria ( discusión ) 04:34 17 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

  Todo solucionado, muchas gracias - SchroCat ( discusión ) 08:27 17 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Apoyo de Tim Riley

Revisé el borrador hace un rato (en la página de discusión del artículo) y mis pocas objeciones fueron resueltas satisfactoriamente. Al volver a leerlo, encuentro que el texto es claro y muy legible, el tono neutral y equilibrado, y las fuentes son amplias y aparentemente sólidas: hay, es cierto, cincuenta citas de la fuente principal, pero se equilibran con múltiples citas de otras cuatro fuentes importantes. También lo has hecho sorprendentemente bien con las ilustraciones. En mi opinión, cumple con todos los criterios de la FA y me complace agregar mi apoyo . – Tim riley talk 14:41, 17 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Gracias Tim . Tu ayuda en el proceso fue muy apreciada, como siempre. Saludos - SchroCat ( discusión ) 14:45 17 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Huracán Dennis

Nominador(es): ♫ Hurricanehink ( discusión ) 21:28 15 oct 2024 (UTC)[ responder ]

Este artículo trata sobre el huracán Dennis , el primer huracán importante que azotó los Estados Unidos durante la agitada temporada de huracanes del Atlántico de 2005 (sería uno de los cuatro). Dennis solía ser un artículo destacado entre 2006 y 2010. A lo largo de los años, Juliancolton  ( discusión  · contribuciones ) creó una serie de subartículos para Dennis relacionados con los Estados Unidos, y el artículo estuvo cerca de convertirse en un tema destacado, solo que el artículo principal era extremadamente corto (para un artículo sobre tormentas retirado). Entonces, después de la fusión de los subartículos, más el contenido adicional y la edición, ahora siento que el artículo es uno de los relatos más completos del huracán. Espero poder abordar cualquiera de sus inquietudes, si surgen. ♫ Hurricanehink ( discusión ) 21:28, 15 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Revisión de imágenes

• No utilice un tamaño de px fijo

• A algunas imágenes les falta el texto alternativo

• Archivo:Dennis_2005_path.png: el formato de la página de descripción de la imagen parece estar dañado. ¿Podrías confirmar qué debería aparecer y qué no? Nikkimaria ( discusión ) 01:20 16 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Gracias por la revisión de la imagen, Nikkimaria  ( discusión  · contribuciones ). Zzzs  ( discusión  · contribuciones ) ayudó a corregir los dos primeros puntos. En cuanto al tercero, no estoy seguro de haber entendido bien. La página de la trayectoria de Dennis 205 tiene la información estándar que aparece en todos los mapas de trayectorias de ciclones tropicales, como el hecho de que es de dominio público, lo que significan los símbolos y cuándo se hizo. Compárelo con los mapas de trayectorias de otros artículos destacados sobre huracanes aquí y aquí. ♫ Hurricanehink ( discusión ) 15:48 17 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

También arreglé ese, para que lo sepas. El código estaba dañado por el formato de información de archivo estándar. Eso es todo lo que voy a hacer por esta nominación. _Z Z ^Z 'S 16:20, 17 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Oh, gracias por arreglar eso también. ♫ Hurricanehink ( discusión ) 16:40 17 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

John Wick (película)

Nominador(es): Darkwarriorblake ( discusión ) 12:17 15 oct 2024 (UTC)[ responder ]

Este artículo trata sobre la película de acción de 2014 John Wick , o John Vick como algunos de los gánsteres rusos pueden decirlo. Esta ha tenido dos nominaciones anteriores: la primera tuvo algunas buenas respuestas y mejoras agregadas/sugeridas por TheJoebro64 , Piotrus , Pamzeis , TompaDompa, zmbro y The Corvette ZR1 , aunque la segunda lamentablemente fracasó debido a una falta general de respuestas. Desde la primera nominación en 2023, se han publicado nuevos libros que me han permitido reforzar significativamente la sección de Análisis temático, que fue una crítica común ya que había luchado por identificar fuentes que discutieran específicamente la primera vez, ya que estaban más enfocadas en evoluciones en sus secuelas, particularmente la tradición en torno a la Mesa Alta y el inframundo que solo se toca brevemente en John Wick . También es el décimo aniversario de la película este año, por lo que sería bueno llevarla al estado de FA antes de fin de año si es posible. Sus comentarios son muy apreciados, gracias. Darkwarriorblake ( discusión ) 12:17 15 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Apoyo Al leer esto, el artículo es sólido. Los únicos puntos (menores) que mejoraría serían invertir las subsecciones de escritura y desarrollo, ya que las encuentro un poco confusas. Las "Evaluaciones retrospectivas", si bien son breves, están bien, pero dejaré que otros ofrezcan sus opiniones. Como te costó encontrar buenas fuentes, busqué y encontré un par con información (menor) relacionada con esta película. Puedes agregarlas o no.

• “En breve”. Film Comment, vol. 51, núm. 4, 2015, págs. 79–79. JSTOR, http://www.jstor.org/stable/43577930. Consultado el 15 de octubre de 2024.
• SWEENEY, R. EMMET. “Muscle Memory”. Film Comment, vol. 54, núm. 1, 2018, págs. 16-17. JSTOR, http://www.jstor.org/stable/44991186. Consultado el 15 de octubre de 2024.

Paleface Jack ( discusión ) 18:41 15 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Gracias por eso, Paleface Jack. Revisé las referencias que proporcionaste, pero parecen estar más relacionadas con la compañía de especialistas y una de sus especialistas, respectivamente. Darkwarriorblake ( discusión ) 21:15 15 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Eso pensé. Valía la pena echarle un vistazo. Paleface Jack ( discusión ) 00:44 16 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Lo siento, olvidé responder a tu comentario sobre las subsecciones de Desarrollo y Escritura. Normalmente, en las películas esto sería al revés, pero en este caso la sección de desarrollo no puede suceder sin la sección de escritura, ya que toda la escritura se realizó primero como un guion independiente en lugar de como parte de un proyecto planificado. Darkwarriorblake ( discusión ) 20:41 16 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Soporte . Parece que ha mejorado con respecto al año pasado, y en aquel entonces era bastante bueno. Bien hecho. -- _{Piotr Konieczny, también conocido como Prokonsul Piotrus | responder aquí} 00:48, 16 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Apoyo Nunca tuve ningún problema con el artículo para empezar: DWB escribe algunos de los mejores artículos sobre WP. Pero estoy de acuerdo en que la sección de análisis en particular se ve mejor esta vez. Mi única crítica sería que la imagen de Ian McShane en recepción (a partir de esta revisión), no parece relevante para la sección en sí (en comparación con la imagen de Lance Reddick en el análisis). Recomendaría hacer que el título de McShane sea más relevante para la sección o eliminarlo. Aparte de eso, estoy de acuerdo. – zmbro _{( discusión ) ( cont )} 15:12, 16 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Gracias Zmbro, arreglé el título, la imagen estaba allí porque algunos críticos lo habían señalado, pero yo también sentí que el título la hacía parecer una adición débil. Darkwarriorblake ( discusión ) 20:41 16 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Batalla del puente Big Black River

Nominador(es): Hog Farm _Talk 19:03, 13 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Después de Raymond, Grand Gulf y Lake Providence, llega el siguiente artículo de mi serie sobre Vicksburg. La división de Loring del ejército confederado de Pemberton había quedado aislada tras la desastrosa batalla de Champion Hill. Pemberton, que no sabía que Loring no había podido reunirse con él, defendió el cruce del río Big Black con la división de élite pero diezmada de John Bowen y la brigada de reclutas inexpertos de dudosa lealtad de John Vaughn. Los hombres de Michael Lawler utilizaron un canal seco del río para acercarse a las líneas confederadas y, cuando los hombres de Lawler cargan, atacan la parte de la línea que defendían los reclutas de Vaughn. Los hombres de Vaughn no ofrecen mucha resistencia, las tropas de Bowen en los flancos se ven obligadas a retirarse para evitar quedar aisladas del cruce del río y la línea confederada entera tarda unos tres minutos en derrumbarse. Más de 1.700 confederados son capturados y los confederados pierden su artillería porque los equipos de caballos necesarios para mover los cañones se quedaron en el lado equivocado del río. Pemberton se retira a la campaña de Vicksburg y se rinde aproximadamente un mes y medio después. Hog Farm _Talk 19:03, 13 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Revisión de imágenes

• No utilice un tamaño de px fijo
  • Se eliminó la codificación rígida del tamaño de px. Hog Farm _Talk 14:34, 14 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]
• A algunas imágenes les falta el texto alternativo
  • He intentado agregar texto alternativo. Hog Farm _Talk 14:34, 14 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]
• Archivo:The_Battle_of_Big_Black_River_Bridge,_Harper's_Weekly,_June_20,_1863.jpg: el enlace de origen no funciona
  • Este es un problema conocido (temporal) con Internet Archive; creo que la expectativa es que vuelva a estar en línea pronto. Hog Farm _Talk 14:34, 14 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]
• Archivo:Big_Black_River_Bridge_Battlefield_Mississippi.jpg: ver MOS:COLOUR . Nikkimaria ( discusión ) 04:45 14 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]
  • Se eliminó la imagen porque no creo que sea fácil hacerla compatible. Hog Farm _Talk 14:34, 14 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Matarísvan

Hola Hog Farm , mis comentarios:

• ¿Por qué no tenemos las bajas y las pérdidas en el cuadro de información cuando sí las tenemos en el frente y el cuerpo? Además, ¿se conocen las fortalezas de las unidades antes de la batalla?
  • No he visto una buena estimación de la fuerza de la Unión en la batalla en ninguna de las fuentes que he consultado para esto. No sé qué relevancia tiene publicar las bajas cuando no hay fuerzas enumeradas en el cuadro de información para las comparaciones de proporcionalidad y los registros de pérdidas confederadas son tan incompletos. Hog Farm _Talk 13:25, 14 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]
• "Menos de 300 soldados de la Unión resultaron muertos": suena un poco extraño, ¿consideraría reformularlo como "El ejército de la Unión sufrió menos de 300 bajas"?
  • Terminado _Charla sobre granjas porcinas 18:56, 14 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]
• "captura" de Nueva Orleans, Luisiana: ¿Enlazar "captura" con "Captura de Nueva Orleans"?
  • _Charla sobre granjas de cerdos vinculadas 18:56, 14 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]
• ¿Estás considerando vincularte al campo de fuego?
  • _Charla sobre granjas de cerdos vinculadas 18:56, 14 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]
• "Osterhaus reemplazado por": "¿Osterhaus fue reemplazado por"?
  • Corregido Hog Farm _Talk 18:56, 14 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]
• ¿Podríamos considerar agregar el DOI y el ID JSTOR para Smith 2024?
  • En el pasado no he hecho esto con los libros, solo con los artículos de revistas. ¿Es esta una práctica estándar? Hog Farm _Talk 13:25, 14 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

  Todavía no está disponible para artículos que no sean de ciencias exactas, pero creo que debería estarlo. Los identificadores y DOI de JSTOR permiten el acceso directo a la fuente si se ha iniciado sesión a través de la biblioteca de Wikipedia. Por otro lado, es relativamente más difícil acceder a los ISBN. Matarisvan ( discusión ) 15:32, 16 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

  ¿Este libro está en JSTOR? Pensé que JSTOR era más para artículos de revistas. Intenté abrir la biblioteca de Wikipedia en JSTOR, pero mi conexión a Internet no es muy buena en este momento y no pude hacer que la biblioteca se cargara correctamente. Tengo entendido que los DOI se utilizan para señalar documentos en línea. ¿Sería útil para un libro impreso en papel? Hog Farm _Talk 01:41, 17 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

  Bueno, esto no es un impedimento en absoluto. Añado mi apoyo . Saludos Matarisvan ( discusión ) 09:19, 17 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

• En Smith 2013, ¿el primer editor es Stephen Woodworth o Steven Woodworth? Google Books indica este último. Supongo que se trata de un error de pasada.
  • Este es el mismo autor que Woodworth 2005. Corregido y vinculado. Hog Farm _Talk 13:25, 14 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Eso es todo por mi parte. Saludos Matarisvan ( discusión ) 07:56 14 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

@ Matarisvan : - ¡Gracias por la reseña! Tengo una pregunta arriba. Hog Farm _Talk 18:56, 14 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Universidad de California

Una pequeña protesta por el uso de hombres como equivalente de tropas , soldados , fuerzas , etc. Sabemos que al menos una pequeña, pero muy real, porción de las fuerzas combatientes no estaban cubiertas por esa etiqueta, antes incluso de empezar a pensar en las que no hemos podido detectar. Según MOS:GNL , se debe utilizar un lenguaje neutro en cuanto al género cuando hacerlo no sacrifique la precisión, y creo que aquí hay suficientes buenos sinónimos como para que se aplique la directriz. UndercoverClassicist ^{T · C} 09:48, 16 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Algunos más:

• Durante la retirada de Champion Hill : Me costó mucho entender los movimientos que se estaban produciendo en ese lugar; creo que mi ignorancia de las direcciones implicadas me impidió hacerlo. ¿Entiendo bien que Pemberton y compañía se estaban retirando hacia el oeste , que el cuerpo principal de la fuerza había cruzado la BBR y que él le dijo a una pequeña fuerza que esperara atrás para que cualquier avance de la Unión no cortara la oportunidad de que la división de Loring hiciera lo mismo?
• Una cicatriz de meandro antigua : ¿existen cicatrices de meandro nuevas ? Por su propia naturaleza, deben tener cierta antigüedad.
• El colapso de esta parte de la línea confederada obligó a las tropas de ambos lados a retirarse : posiblemente sea ambiguo, gramaticalmente si no por sentido común, si nos referimos a "el resto de las tropas confederadas" o "tanto la Unión como los confederados".
• El 18 de mayo, el ejército de la Unión cruzó el río Big Black. Los soldados confederados supervivientes entraron en las fortificaciones de Vicksburg : ¿se incluyen aquí las tropas de Loring?
• El liderazgo militar de la Unión desarrolló el Plan Anaconda, que era una estrategia para derrotar a los Estados Confederados de América. Creo que generalmente damos por sentado que los planificadores militares buscan derrotar a sus enemigos: ¿quizás agregar "bloqueándolo" o algo para aclarar la anaconda de este plan en particular?
• un ejército y una marina conjuntos : MOS:DASH quiere poner fin a esto y a cosas similares.
• Un intento de cortar el Canal de Williams : Me pregunto si cortar podría ser malinterpretado como "interdicto" en lugar de "construir".
• A fines de noviembre, alrededor de 40.000 infantes de la Unión comandados por el mayor general Ulysses S. Grant comenzaron a moverse hacia el sur en dirección a Vicksburg desde un punto de partida en Tennessee. ¿Alguna idea aproximada de cuán lejos estaba esto?
• y estuvo encabezado por las tropas del XIII Cuerpo del mayor general John A. McClernand : tropas parece superfluo, a menos que queramos decir que no eran todas, en cuyo caso creo que necesitamos elementos del XIII Cuerpo del mayor general John A. McLernand o similar.
• ¿Hay alguna razón por la que el mapa de campaña de Vicksburg esté alineado a la izquierda? MOS:ACCESSIBILITY recomienda alinearlo a la derecha, para mantener un margen izquierdo uniforme, a menos que haya una buena razón para variar.

Próximamente habrá más novedades. UndercoverClassicist ^{T · C} 19:36, 16 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

• Los elementos principales del ejército de Grant, el cuerpo de McClernand, cruzaron el río en Bruinsburg, Mississippi. : dos frases separadas por comas son un poco incómodas. Sugiera "El cuerpo de McLernand, que formaba el elemento principal del ejército de Grant, cruzó...", o bien poner guiones alrededor de "el cuerpo de McClernand" en lugar de comas.
• ¿Por qué David Dixon Porter no recibe un rango, mientras que casi todos los demás parecen tenerlo?
• McClernand avanzó hacia la izquierda de la Unión con su cuerpo, Sherman y el XV Cuerpo en el centro. ¿De quién es este cuerpo? Parece que las tropas de McClernand están en dos lugares a la vez.
• Pemberton decidió que las órdenes de Johnston no eran compatibles con las directivas anteriores que había recibido del presidente confederado. ¿Alguna idea de cuáles eran esas directivas (y, por cierto, deberíamos nombrar a ese presidente?)
• "Renunciar a utilizar" es una tautología: simplemente renunciar a utilizar . ¿Qué había hecho Grant en su lugar?
• hacia Edwards : sugiere la ciudad de Edwards ; se lee como el nombre de una persona aquí.
• Al sur se encontraba el lago Gin, el flanco derecho de la Confederación estaba en el lago con la línea que iba hacia el norte hasta el río Big Black : la primera coma debe ser dos puntos, punto y coma o un punto. Personalmente, me inclinaría por la primera.
• Sé que son comparativamente jóvenes, pero ¿deberíamos nombrar al comandante del 4º Regimiento de Infantería de Mississippi, como lo hemos hecho con otras formaciones consideradas lo suficientemente importantes como para mencionar su nombre?
• como la división de Carter L. Stevenson : por coherencia, daría su rango.
• la región del este de Tennessee, que era leal a la Unión : reformularía " era leal a la Unión" , que se lee más naturalmente como "que no se había separado" en lugar de "en la que la mayoría de la gente apoyaba a la Unión, a pesar de ser parte de la Confederación"
• Mientras estaban frescos, su lealtad a la Confederación era incierta : se necesita una coma después de frescos , y yo cambiaría mientras por aunque para eliminar la ambigüedad (¿eran más confiables cuando estaban agotados?).
• La división de Bowen era la unidad de élite del ejército de Pemberton, pero estaban exhaustos después de duros combates en Port Gibson y Champion Hill y habían sufrido casi 1.000 bajas en la última batalla : creo que necesitamos una idea de lo grande que era esta división para empezar a poner ese número en contexto.
• sostuvo la parte sur de la línea confederada y el área donde Jackson Road cruzaba la línea : ¿la cruzó ?
• Lindsey avanzó con su brigada a lo largo del ferrocarril 300 yardas (270 m), podría ser una cosa de BrE, pero ¿no se suele dar la distancia antes de la dirección: 100 millas al norte ?
• Este avance se llevó a cabo sin víctimas significativas : se podría considerar ajustar "significativas" a "muchas " o algo similar: ¿queremos decir "murieron pocas personas" o "no murió nadie importante"? Como preguntaría un viajero frecuente por aquí: ¿qué significaron?
• En el 1.º Regimiento de Caballería de Misuri (desmontado) : reescribiría la palabra entre corchetes como una cláusula: "¿que se empleaba como infantería desmontada"? En este momento, parece que (desmontado) es parte del nombre. Si es parte del nombre, ¿no debería estar en mayúscula?
• 90 hombres y el comandante de la unidad, el coronel Elijah Gates, fueron capturados : a pesar de mi punto general sobre los "hombres", aquí hemos dado a entender que Gates era una mujer.
• Otros dos barcos de vapor confederados, Charm y Paul Jones, que se encontraban río abajo del puente, también fueron quemados : No creo que usemos "quién" para los barcos, incluso si vamos por "ella" .
• El 4º de Mississippi, uno de los regimientos de Vaughn, y la brigada de Cockrell : ¿podría reformularse esto? Actualmente no está del todo claro si estamos hablando de dos unidades o de tres.
• no reportar pérdidas : ¿significa esto que informaron que no habían sufrido ninguna, o que no hicieron ningún informe sobre sus pérdidas?
• ¿Deberíamos llamar a Fred Grant como Frederick? No hablaríamos de Abe Lincoln o Ike Eisenhower en un contexto formal.
• Grant lanzó ataques importantes el 19 y el 22 de mayo : otro ataque importante en el que creo que debemos distinguir entre lo grande y lo importante .
• ¿Consideraría la posibilidad de vincular el mapa del Atlas de West Point más arriba como medio externo? A mí, al menos, me parece mucho más claro que el mapa del PD que ya tenemos.

Eso es todo por ahora: en su mayoría, críticas quisquillosas, como siempre, pero espero que algunas sean útiles. UndercoverClassicist ^{T · C} 08:41, 17 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Ferrari FF

Nominador(es): 750 h+ 02:19, 12 de octubre de 2024 (UTC)[ responder ]

Este artículo trata sobre una impresionante camioneta familiar construida por el destacado fabricante de automóviles italiano Ferrari . Recientemente, este artículo fue objeto de una buena revisión por parte de Arconning, por lo que estoy muy agradecido. Con 1300 palabras, es el segundo artículo más corto que he publicado aquí, después del Lagonda Taraf . Gracias por todas las revisiones recibidas, y serán respondidas de manera oportuna. Saludos, 750 h+ 02:19, 12 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Revisión de imagen - aprobado

Hola 750h+ , me complace hacer la revisión de imágenes. El artículo contiene las siguientes imágenes:

• https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki//File:2013_Ferrari_FF,_Blu_TdF,_front_left.jpg
• https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki//File:Ferrari_612_Scaglietti_front.JPG
• https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki//File:2013_Ferrari_FF,_Blu_TdF,_rear_left.jpg
• https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki//File:Ferrari_SP_FFX.jpg

Las tres primeras son obras propias publicadas bajo CC BY-SA 3.0, la última es de Flickr publicada bajo CC BY 2.0. Todas las imágenes son relevantes para el artículo y están ubicadas en los lugares apropiados. Todas tienen textos alternativos y las imágenes en el cuerpo del artículo tienen subtítulos. Creo que el subtítulo "2013_Ferrari_FF,_Blu_TdF,_rear_left.jpg" debería nombrar el modelo para evitar confusiones, ya que también tenemos imágenes de otros modelos. Por lo demás, no he detectado ningún problema. Phlsph7 ( discusión ) 09:04 12 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Listo, gracias por la reseña Phlsph! 750 h+ 09:14, 12 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Se ve bien. Phlsph7 ( discusión ) 11:43 12 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Luna (canción de Feid y ATL Jacob)

Nominador(es): Santi ( discusión ) 01:52, 12 de octubre de 2024 (UTC)[ responder ]

"Luna" es la canción más exitosa del cantautor colombiano emergente Feid hasta el momento. La canción se volvió viral en América Latina a través de TikTok (sí, es una de las muchas canciones afectadas por las redes sociales) pocas semanas después del lanzamiento de su álbum, Ferxxocalipsis . También se interpretó en la ceremonia de apertura de la Copa América 2024 , pero hubo demasiados problemas técnicos en la señal. Se iba a grabar un remix con el Rey del Reggaetón, Don Omar , pero Feid no se dio cuenta de que en la fecha de la invitación Omar estaba atravesando una enfermedad cancerosa, por lo que no fue posible hacerlo. Finalmente, es una de las canciones latinas actuales presentes en el chart de AFP en Portugal; alcanzó el puesto 35; esto también muestra su impacto en algunas partes del mundo a través de ser elevado por los latinos. Después de la reestructuración y más información obtenida, creo que esto podría ser un FAC ahora. Santi ( discusión ) 01:52 12 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Zorro corazón

Las referencias se beneficiarían de parámetros trans-title. Heartfox ( discusión ) 02:55 13 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

@Heartfox : Listo . Muchas gracias. Santi ( discusión ) 03:57 13 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

María Stromberger

Nominador(es): El extraterrestre grande y feo ( discusión ) 01:17 12 oct 2024 (UTC)[ responder ]

Maria Stromberger fue a Auschwitz por decisión propia. Era enfermera y había oído hablar de los horrores que se producían en el campo. Recibió un trabajo como enfermera jefe para poder verlo con sus propios ojos. Era mucho peor de lo que temía. Stromberger hizo lo que pudo para ayudar a los que estaban allí, arriesgando su vida para robarles comida y medicinas.

Cuando el movimiento de resistencia clandestino se puso en contacto con ella, se volvió aún más audaz. Stromberger introdujo de contrabando información y suministros en el campo, entregó algunas de las primeras pruebas del Holocausto en el mundo exterior e incluso adquirió armas para utilizarlas en un posible levantamiento. Cuando terminó la guerra y Stromberger regresó a casa, fue arrestada junto con otros empleados de Auschwitz. Esto provocó indignación en Polonia, lo que llevó a su liberación. Regresó para testificar contra Rudolf Höss en 1947, pero por lo demás vivió el resto de sus años tranquilamente en Austria.

Un agradecimiento especial a Per exemplum por una útil revisión de GA, a BorgQueen por su ayuda para encontrar fuentes y a Toadspike por ayudarnos con algunas de las fuentes en alemán. El gran alienígena feo ( discusión ) 01:17 12 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Llewee

Primeros años de vida

• "Maria Lapeiner y Franz Seraphin Stromberger" - ¿Sabes cuánto tiempo vivían sus padres?
  • Agregado.
• "Tenía ocho hermanos mayores, cinco de los cuales sobrevivieron a la infancia". Supongo que era la hija menor. Si es así, sugeriría que se aclarara más.
  • Cambiado a "ella era la más joven de nueve hijos, incluidos tres que murieron en la infancia".
• La primera formación que se menciona es la de profesora. ¿Hay alguna información disponible sobre si asistió a la escuela y durante cuánto tiempo?
  • Agregó que completó su educación obligatoria .
• "su prima y el marido de su prima" Sugeriría mencionar sus nombres si están disponibles.
  • Agregado.
• "Stromberger permaneció un tiempo en Bregenz en los años 20 con su hermana Karoline Gräbnerm" - ¿Hay más información disponible sobre este periodo entre 1917 y 1926?
  • La fuente dice que no está claro el período entre 1921 y 1926, lo cual he añadido. He añadido algunos pequeños detalles sobre el período entre 1920 y 1921.

Carrera de enfermería

• "Sintiéndose obligada por sus creencias religiosas a ayudar", es la primera vez que oímos hablar de sus opiniones políticas. ¿Sabemos cuál era su actitud hacia los nazis antes de ese momento?
  • No lo sabemos. Sabemos que después de salir de Auschwitz tenía poco interés en la política, pero no lo suficiente como para extrapolarlo a antes.
• Aunque no se dispone de información sobre sus opiniones políticas anteriores, creo que sería útil presentar brevemente la situación política. Tal vez se pueda mencionar la anexión de Austria por parte de Alemania en 1938, la invasión de Polonia y el comienzo de la Segunda Guerra Mundial en 1939.
  • Se ha añadido una mención a la anexión. Se menciona la Polonia ocupada por los nazis poco después. ¿Es importante que se incluya la hora exacta de la invasión?
• "Ella solicitó una transferencia": el "ella" debe tener una "s" minúscula ya que sigue a un apóstrofe.
  • Fijado.
• "en un hospital de enfermedades infecciosas" - ¿Era un hospital civil? ¿Cómo se llamaba?
  • Todas las fuentes lo llaman hospital de enfermedades infecciosas sin más información.
• "Cuando los hombres dijeron que había enfermeras con el mismo uniforme que ella", supongo que esto no puede ser literalmente cierto dada la diferencia de sexo. ¿Es una metáfora para los miembros de la misma organización?
  • Aclarado "Enfermeras en Auschwitz".
• "La administración creyó" - ¿Podría aclarar qué significa esto (por ejemplo, "Las autoridades alemanas en Polonia creyeron...")?
  • Aclarado “La administración de enfermería” con una fuente diferente.

Me detendré aquí por ahora, haré el resto del artículo mañana. Llewee ( discusión ) 22:30 12 octubre 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

• "incluida su limpieza étnica del pueblo judío" - creo que esto podría expresarse de forma más directa.
  • No estoy seguro de qué cambio estás sugiriendo. Nunca he oído hablar de un artículo de Wikipedia escrito "sin rodeos".
• "El asunto casi provocó que ella se fuera". Esto se podría explicar más claramente: ¿Por qué consideró irse?
  • La fuente dice lo mismo que el artículo. Él la amenazó con matarla si se salía de la línea y ella pensó en irse debido a eso.
• "ella tenía autoridad sobre las enfermeras y sobre los internos que estaban obligados a trabajar allí" - ¿Era ella responsable del personal interno que cuidaba a los internos enfermos o sólo de aquellos que cuidaban a los alemanes enfermos?
  • El artículo especifica que trabaja en la enfermería de las SS.
• "Había aproximadamente una docena de enfermeras trabajando en la enfermería". - ¿Se trata sólo de enfermeras profesionales, excluyendo a los internos?
  • La fuente sólo dice "una docena de enfermeras". He añadido "además de los internos".
• "Por qué tantos reclusos se suicidaron": "Se suicidaron" es un término delicado en Wikipedia. Sugeriría cambiarlo por uno de los términos que aparecen en MOS:SUICIDE .
  • Se cambió a "se suicidaron", ya que es la única opción de la lista que podría aplicarse aquí. Parece una forma más sensacionalista de decirlo, pero si eso es lo que quiere la comunidad.
• "Pero el oficial de las SS Geiger descubrió a un interno con la leche" - No creo que sea necesario el "pero" aquí.
  • Cambiado a "y cuando"
• "y el dueño de la leche" - Sugeriría hacerlo más claro (por ejemplo, "y el recluso encontrado con la leche").
  • Cambió.
• "Stromberger les dijo que Kaulfuss" Supongo que se trata de Wirths. Si es así, aclare.
  • Intenté aclarar un poco la situación. Tanto Kaulfuss como Wirths estaban presentes. Ahora dice: "Kaulfuss presionó a Wirths sobre el tema, por lo que Stromberger solicitó que estuviera presente para escuchar las acusaciones que se hicieron contra ella. Cuando esto ocurrió, ella le dijo a Kaulfuss y Wirths que Kaulfuss, borracho, había roto una fotografía del comandante de las SS Heinrich Himmler". ¿Aún no está claro?
• "Pys le ofreció aguantar los abusos para evitar sospechas, pero ella se negó". Esta frase parece un poco fuera de lugar al final del párrafo. ¿Cuándo se produjo la oferta?
  • La fuente no ofrece más detalles que decir que Pys se ofreció. He estado pensando dónde poner esta frase y estoy abierto a otras sugerencias.
• "Pys le preguntó si estaba dispuesta a ayudar en formas más peligrosas" - ¿cuándo sucedió esto?
  • La fuente no dice cuándo fue reclutada específicamente, y las otras fuentes que cubren esta área tampoco parecen decirlo. Pude encontrar una que decía que comenzó a trabajar para ellos a principios de 1943, así que la agregué a la siguiente sección donde detalla qué trabajo estaba haciendo.
• "dentro de las instalaciones de Auschwitz": "instalación" parece un término extraño para usar en este contexto
  • Intercambiado con "complejo", que es lo que se usa en el encabezado del artículo sobre Auschwitz.
• “También llevaba información que detallaba datos más sensibles sobre el campamento” - ¿Podría darnos algún ejemplo?
  • Agregó que llevaba listas de los muertos.
• "un pueblo cercano para entregárselo" - Puede ser una diferencia en la variedad del inglés, pero yo sugeriría "sobre" en lugar de "fuera".
  • Para mí, "entregar" implica algún tipo de confrontación u obligación mientras que "entregar" implica que se hizo de manera clandestina.
• "Colaboradores fuera del campo": Sugiero no utilizar el término "colaborador". Es un término asociado con personas que cooperaron con los alemanes en los países ocupados.
  • Cambiado a "miembros de la resistencia"
• "como "Hermana" y "S"" - Suponiendo que hubieran usado polaco, sugeriría escribir la palabra original y una traducción
  • La fuente en idioma alemán los proporciona en alemán, por lo que supongo que enwiki debería proporcionarlos en inglés.
• "Las armas finalmente no fueron utilizadas, ya que el campo fue liberado antes de que pudiera producirse un levantamiento". El artículo dice que hubo un levantamiento en 1944.
  • Aclaró que se trató de un operativo más pequeño y con apenas unos cuantos reclusos.
• "Judíos y comunistas que no celebraban la festividad" - ¿Los comunistas no celebraban la Navidad? Supongo que la mayoría de ellos tenían un trasfondo cristiano.
  • Creo que es porque los comunistas en cuestión eran marxistas-leninistas: ateísmo marxista-leninista
• "Ella le dio a Pys la opción de elegir entre los dos". - Este no parece un detalle importante para incluir.
  • La idea detrás de incluir esto es que ella mostró favoritismo hacia Pys, colocando su seguridad por encima de la de cualquier otra persona involucrada en la resistencia. ¿Sugerirías reformularlo o debería omitirse por completo?
• "El vivero de Rajsko viaja para conseguir flores para la enfermería" - Clarifica el vivero
  • Hecho.
• "Cuando los reclusos planearon un levantamiento el 27 de octubre de 1944, Stromberger fue uno de los pocos no reclusos que conocía sus intenciones". - ¿Hay más información disponible sobre esto?
  • Como se especificó anteriormente, el artículo exageró la importancia de esto y he aclarado que era una situación menor.
• "Salió de Praga el 31 de enero[83] y llegó a su casa en Bregenz el 3 de febrero[84]" - ¿Estos lugares todavía estaban controlados por Alemania en ese momento?
  • Reelaboré un poco esta sección para que mencione cronológicamente la toma de Bregenz por parte de los franceses de manos de los alemanes en mayo.
• "Después de Auschwitz": Creo que esta sección podría tener un nombre más específico, por ejemplo, "arresto y exoneración".
  • Sí, tuve algunos problemas con los títulos de este artículo. ¡Es una buena sugerencia!
• "El caos en Austria y Polonia que vino después de la guerra" - ¿Se podría añadir alguna información adicional aquí?
  • La fuente no ofrece más detalles, salvo que la correspondencia no era confiable.

Lo dejaré aquí por ahora. Llewee ( discusión ) 20:20 13 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Llewee , ya he respondido a todo hasta ahora. El extraterrestre feo y grande ( discusión ) 02:24 16 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Hola Thebiguglyalien , preferiría que se aborden las inquietudes sobre el abastecimiento antes de continuar con esto. Quizás envíe un mensaje cuando se hayan abordado las inquietudes de Buldhe. -- Llewee ( discusión ) 13:01 16 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Oposición de Buidhe

Sencillamente no puedo apoyar un artículo sobre un tema como este que se basa casi exclusivamente en una sola fuente de un historiador no destacado. Aunque no he investigado en profundidad al autor o al editor, la cantidad de exageraciones, conceptos erróneos y engaños descarados relacionados con el Holocausto requiere un estándar más alto de fuentes, a menos que, como mínimo, haya evidencia de que otros historiadores han examinado el libro y respaldado su precisión (en revistas académicas, no en artículos de periódicos, que carecen de experiencia en el tema). ( t · c ) buidhe 05:12, 16 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

¡Hola Buidhe ! Pensé un poco en la fuente y lo mencioné brevemente en la página de discusión de FAC . Luego hice pequeñas modificaciones para que algunas secciones dependieran menos de ella antes de nominar.

Estoy seguro de que Harald Walser es un experto en la materia. En 1982, escribió su tesis doctoral, "Die Hintermänner. Vorarlberger Industrielle und die NSDAP 1933-1934", sobre las primeras actividades nazis. Lo amplió hasta convertirlo en un libro, "Die ilegale NSDAP in Tirol und Vorarlberg 1933-1938", al año siguiente en Europa Verlag. En 1985, contribuyó a Von Herren und Menschen: Verfolgung und Widerstand in Vorarlberg 1933-1945 , publicado por Fink's Verlag (ahora parte de Brill Publishers ), con los artículos "Anpassung und Widerstand: Vorarlbergs Kirche im NS-Staat" y "Die Zeugen Jehová". Publicó su primer artículo sobre Maria Stromberger, "'Der Engel von Auschwitz' – Zum Wirken der Krankenschwester Maria Stromberger" en Montfort en 1988. También escribió o coescribió varios libros y artículos a través de la Sociedad de Autores de Vorarlberger en los años 80 y En los años 90, con la Sociedad Histórica de Vorarlberg, que cofundó. Su producción disminuyó en los años 2000, cuando se convirtió en director de escuela y miembro de la legislatura nacional, pero ha vuelto a escribir desde que se retiró de la política. En algún momento, podría escribir su Artículo enwiki junto con algunos otros enlaces rojos en este artículo.

¿Qué partes del artículo te preocupan en cuanto a exageraciones, conceptos erróneos y engaños? La mayor parte del contenido relacionado con el Holocausto trata sobre sus propias interacciones y pensamientos personales, así que tengo curiosidad por saber en qué punto cruza ese umbral. Cuando existan esos casos, estoy dispuesto a desviarme de una de mis reglas personales sobre las fuentes para hacer una doble referencia de algunos de ellos con fuentes académicas no relacionadas con Stromberger, si eso es lo que crees que es necesario. The big feal alien ( discusión ) 18:44 16 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

En la medida en que el artículo trata sobre sus propias interacciones y pensamientos personales, basados ​​en una única fuente escrita a partir de documentos personales, me inclino a pensar que es INEXACTO. En la medida en que se trata de hechos que podrían verificarse de forma independiente (aparte de una cantidad limitada de información básica que es genuinamente indiscutible), esperaría que otra fuente lo respalde. ( t · c ) buidhe 19:51, 16 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Es una biografía. Si una biografía completa sobre una persona no es apropiada como fuente más destacada para su artículo, entonces honestamente no sé qué lo es. El gran alienígena feo ( discusión ) 20:11 16 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

La mayoría de las biografías de Wikipedia tratan sobre los logros de la persona, no sobre sus pensamientos o sentimientos. No creo que sea ilógico esperar una confirmación independiente cuando las afirmaciones realizadas son sustancialmente controvertidas y, a veces, rayan en wp:redflag. ( t · c ) buidhe 21:09, 16 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Está bien, no tengo ningún problema con eso. ¿Qué tipo de cambios estás recomendando? ¿Qué WP:REDFLAGs detectaste cuando leíste el artículo? The big flawed alien ( discusión ) 23:33 16 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Claro, cualquier afirmación sobre la participación en actividades de resistencia. Esto parece especialmente propenso a la exageración. Si Wikipedia hubiera existido en 1980, odiaría que hubiéramos ascendido a Raoul Wallenberg a FA mientras afirmaba que rescató a 100.000 personas, lo que resultó ser incorrecto. Hay algunos errores en el artículo: incluida la limpieza étnica del pueblo judío (¿es limpieza étnica la palabra utilizada en la fuente? El Holocausto no se considera generalmente un ejemplo de limpieza étnica, además de que es bastante eufemístico en este caso). Algunas de las personas con las que su artículo dice que trabajó publicaron sus propios libros (por ejemplo, Langbein), así que si las afirmaciones son ciertas, debería poder encontrar apoyo para ellas en otros lugares. ( t · c ) buidhe 00:58, 17 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

¿Estás diciendo que debería buscar y utilizar más fuentes primarias escritas por los propios miembros de la resistencia? Tengo las de Langbein en el artículo, por supuesto, pero definitivamente puedo consultar los escritos de los demás (con suerte, Internet Archive volverá a estar en línea en los próximos días como dijeron que lo haría, pero imagino que puedo encontrar una buena cantidad de ellos en otros lugares). El gran alienígena feo ( discusión ) 02:07 17 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Creo que el libro de Langbein está bien para respaldar otras fuentes, pero esperaría que hubiera fuentes secundarias sobre el movimiento de resistencia en general que deberían mencionar a Stromberger si ella fue importante para él. ( t · c ) buidhe 03:14, 17 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Anactoria

Nominador(es): UndercoverClassicist ^{T · C} 18:38, 10 de octubre de 2024 (UTC)[ responder ]

Este artículo trata de una figura mencionada en la poesía de Safo , aunque no está claro exactamente con qué frecuencia, quién era e incluso si existió. Anactoria surge de las páginas fragmentarias de Safo sin casi ningún detalle biográfico, lo que por supuesto no ha impedido que los estudiosos, desde la antigüedad hasta el presente, se dediquen a conjeturas audaces y especulaciones escandalosas sobre quién podría haber sido. Luego tiene un Nachleben interesante (sincero) en poesía romana y en inglés, donde proporcionó un trampolín para la "francamente pornográfica" "Anactoria" de Swinburne , y para que Robert Lowell llenara muchos de los vacíos que dejó el relato de Safo sobre ella. El artículo se sometió a una buena revisión de artículo de Simongraham en abril, y recientemente recibió comentarios previos a la FAC extremadamente útiles de Caeciliusinhorto . Los inevitables errores e infortunios siguen siendo míos. UndercoverClassicist ^{T · C} 18:38 10 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Revisión de imágenes

• Archivo:Spence_disciples_of_Sappho.jpg: ¿cuándo y dónde se publicó por primera vez y cuál es la fecha de fallecimiento del autor? Nikkimaria ( discusión ) 04:23 11 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

El autor murió en 1918 (según Wikipedia y algunos otros) o en 1903 (según Sotheby's y algunos otros); exhibido por primera vez en la Exposición de Verano de la Royal Academy (que es gratuita y pública) en 1896, según Sotheby's UndercoverClassicist ^{T · C} 06:37, 11 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

apoyo de caeciliusinhorto

Es agradable ver otro artículo relacionado con Safo en FAC (¡algún día terminaré con Safo , lo juro!). Me quedan algunos comentarios textuales, aunque ya has aclarado mis críticas sobre Safo...

• "Poeta griego antiguo": ¿"Griego antiguo" es un nombre propio aquí o debería ser "griego antiguo"?
  • Debería ser así, y lo es ahora. UndercoverClassicist ^{T · C} 14:21, 11 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]
• En la introducción se dice que se ha sugerido Anactoria como seudónimo de Anagora de Mileto; en el cuerpo se dice que Page sugirió que Anagora era el seudónimo. ¿Cuál? (¿O se ha sugerido de ambas maneras?)
  • "Anactoria" es el supuesto seudónimo (que la nombró en honor a un nombre poético para su lugar de origen) -- ahora corregido. UndercoverClassicist ^{T · C} 18:18, 11 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]
• "Es poco probable que la digamma (Ϝ) escrita al comienzo del nombre de Anactoria, con un valor de sonido similar a la w inglesa, haya sido pronunciada en el dialecto de Safo". La ortografía griega que se da para Anactoria en la introducción no tiene digamma inicial, y la edición de Neri de Safo 16 no dice nada sobre digamma; puede que valga la pena señalar de dónde proviene el digamma. (No soy lingüista, pero supongo que porque Anactoria está relacionada con anax ? ¿Aeolic mantuvo el digamma allí después de que se eliminara de los dialectos jónicos?)
  • No creo que haya ninguna base para suponer que la digamma alguna vez fue *escrita* en griego real (aunque uno asumiría que fue pronunciada en algún momento, ya que como dices es un derivado de (w)anax -- pero puedes verlo en la pintura. UndercoverClassicist ^{T · C} 12:18, 11 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]
    • Ah, vale, entonces, ¿el hecho de que Alma-Tadema lo tenga es simplemente victoriano? ¿No me estoy perdiendo una fuente griega que sobreviva para "Ϝανακτορία"? Caeciliusinhorto-public ( discusión ) 12:59 11 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

      Exactamente, aunque apostaría a que no existe una fuente griega que haya sobrevivido, y de ahí la redacción un poco cautelosa (en lugar de, por ejemplo, "la digamma está mal"). UndercoverClassicist ^{T · C} 13:05, 11 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Caeciliusinhorto-public ( discusión ) 11:29 11 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

• Ah, una cosa más: la mayoría de las fuentes parecen buenas, pero soy escéptico con respecto a Paul Chrystal; véase Talk:Cleitagora#Citogenesis: Cleitagora como la "Homera femenina" para mi encuentro anterior con esta obra. Este parece otro caso en el que ha copiado de Wikipedia: nuestro artículo de 2016 decía "Algernon Charles Swinburne escribió un largo poema en Poems and Ballads titulado Anactoria, en el que Safo se dirige a Anactoria con imágenes que incluyen sadomasoquismo, canibalismo y disteísmo"; el libro de Chrystal, publicado en 2017, dice "... Anactoria, en el que Safo se dirige a Anactoria con imágenes que incluyen sadomasoquismo, canibalismo y disteísmo ..." (eso es todo lo que obtengo de la vista de fragmentos de Google Books, pero es una coincidencia exacta). Caeciliusinhorto-public ( discusión ) 11:52 11 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

  Oh, muy buen artículo. He logrado encontrar algunos buenos artículos académicos que dicen lo mismo, así que los he cambiado. UndercoverClassicist ^{T · C} 21:15, 11 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

No tengo mucho más que decir excepto ofrecer mi apoyo. He comprobado un par de fuentes que tenía a mano y todo parecía estar bien; la parte de literatura antigua de este artículo es ciertamente bastante completa y, aunque no estoy tan seguro de proclamar con certeza las recepciones posclásicas, no falta nada de lo que esperaba ver. Caeciliusinhorto ( discusión ) 11:15 13 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Gracias por esto y por tu consejo de antemano. ¡Espero ver a Sappho (seguramente una futura FA si alguna vez hubo alguna) aquí a su debido tiempo! UndercoverClassicist ^{T · C} 13:37, 13 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Apoyo de Tim Riley

No tengo mucho que decir. Mis pocos comentarios se refieren más a la prosa que al contenido (los adolescentes de los años 60 no conocían los versos de Safo en sus clases de griego).

• “También se ha especulado…” – No soy de esos absolutistas que piensan que usar la voz pasiva es un pecado contra el Espíritu Santo, pero creo que la voz pasiva nos deja un poco en desventaja en este caso. “X, Y y Z especulan…” o algo similar tendría más impacto.
  • No estoy seguro de estar en desacuerdo, pero es una especulación antigua y muy extendida: atribuirla a las dos fuentes citadas sería darles erróneamente el crédito (que, para ser justos, ninguno de ellos reclama) por haber tenido la idea. UndercoverClassicist ^{T · C} 16:45, 12 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]
    • Lo entiendo, pero sigue siendo una construcción confusa. Algo como "Varios/muchos escritores a lo largo de los años han especulado..." tendría un poco más de fuerza. Tim riley talk 09:55, 13 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

      Seguiré dándole vueltas a esto: puede que dependa de cuánta munición pueda encontrar en las fuentes. UndercoverClassicist ^{T · C} 13:35, 13 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

• "escrito a otra de las compañeras femeninas de Safo" - "compañeras" me parece un término un tanto impreciso, incluso evasivo. ¿Significa amante? ¿Buen amigo? ¿Colega?
  • La ambigüedad es deliberada: menciono el motivo en la nota al pie c. Palabras como "amantes", "estudiantes", "seguidores" y "compañeros poetas" se encontrarían en la erudición, pero distintas personas discutirían hasta qué punto se aplica cada una de ellas. UndercoverClassicist ^{T · C} 16:45, 12 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]
    • Vale. Tim riley habla 09:55 13 octubre 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]
• "la enciclopedia bizantina del siglo X conocida como Suda " – se menciona en el párrafo anterior, donde debería estar el enlace y probablemente la descripción.
  • No creo que lo sea, a menos que me esté perdiendo algo. UndercoverClassicist ^{T · C} 16:45, 12 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]
    • Mi error. Disculpas. ¿En qué estaba pensando? Tim riley talk 09:55, 13 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]
• "Glenn Most señala que…" – un término bastante cargado, que quizá implica el respaldo de Wikipedia más que un informe neutral de sus comentarios.
  • Creo que queremos respaldar esto, es evidentemente cierto al observar el poema. Estaría de acuerdo si dijéramos, por ejemplo, "Glen Most cree [esta declaración de opinión], pero Most en realidad no ha llegado a esta conclusión, solo ha leído el texto". Sin embargo, creo que sería SINTÉTICO simplemente entrar y decir, en Wikivoice sin dar un nombre, que todos los académicos mencionados anteriormente están especulando descontroladamente (sobre lo cual véase la página de discusión del artículo). UndercoverClassicist ^{T · C} 16:45, 12 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]
    • No estoy convencido, pero no haré un número de producción de esto. Tim riley talk 09:55, 13 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]
• "Sócrates y sus acólitos masculinos como Alcibíades" - ¡Orden, orden! Creo que "acólito" es un término demasiado condescendiente para referirse a Alcibíades. El OED define la palabra en este contexto no cristiano como "un asistente o asistente en alguna ceremonia, operación o similar; (también) un seguidor o admirador devoto; un novato o neófito". Un admirador devoto, te lo aseguro (conozco, o más bien conocía, mi Simposio ) y creo que "admirador" en lugar de "acólito" sería la palabra correcta aquí.
  • Hm... aquí discrepo un poco: el punto es que no eran solo admiradores desinteresados, sino en realidad sus estudiantes, seguidores, séquito y descendientes intelectuales: estas son las personas de las que hablaba el tribunal cuando ejecutó a Sócrates por "corromper a la juventud de Atenas". Creo que "admirador" es un término un poco débil para eso, e implica una distancia mucho mayor de la que estamos hablando con un grupo muy unido (en varios sentidos). Por el contrario, creo que un seguidor o admirador devoto; un novato o neófito es justo lo que busca. UndercoverClassicist ^{T · C} 16:45, 12 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]
    • Sigo pensando que "acólitos" es generalmente una palabra peyorativa cuando se usa en este sentido (en contraposición a su significado original de "monaguillos", del griego ἀκόλουθος). Si alguien se refiriera a mí como acólito de alguien, me sentiría menospreciado. Si estás hablando de "estudiantes, seguidores, séquito y descendientes intelectuales", ¿por qué no lo dices? Pero no insistiré en el tema. Tim riley talk 09:55, 13 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

      Ah, ya veo... No estoy seguro de que yo comparta esa lectura peyorativa; sin duda se oye a gente describirse a sí misma como "acólitos" de profesores distinguidos, en particular en los obituarios de estos últimos. Pero seguiré pensando en ello... puede que haya una mejor redacción que transmita el mensaje de forma más eficaz. UndercoverClassicist ^{T · C} 13:34, 13 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Eso es todo lo que encuentro que objetar. Sería una exageración elogiar la prosa concisa y legible o la admirablemente amplia variedad de fuentes (ningún libro se cita más de tres veces). No esperamos menos de este editor. Tim riley talk 15:05, 12 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

• Gracias como siempre, Tim. Me temo que he sido más obstinado de lo habitual anteriormente, pero espero que las respuestas tengan sentido. Estaré encantado de seguir debatiendo sobre los temas en los que he entendido mal o me he equivocado. UndercoverClassicist ^{T · C} 16:45, 12 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Mmm. Lo miraré de nuevo mañana. No voy a oponerme ni negar mi apoyo a ninguno de los puntos anteriores, pero mientras tanto no descarto una pelea encarnizada antes de firmar en la línea de puntos. Tim riley talk 17:58, 12 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Mis comentarios finales, arriba, no son de tanta gravedad como para impedirme apoyar la elevación de este artículo a FA. Las fuentes parecen admirables para mi ojo de profano, el texto es claro y un placer de leer, y estoy seguro de que no ha tenido otra alternativa que las espantosas pinturas victorianas, que son innegablemente relevantes. En mi opinión, cumple con todos los criterios de FA. Tim riley talk 09:55, 13 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Gracias, Tim. Como siempre, eres sabio y te hace reflexionar. Seguiré pensando en los puntos que has planteado anteriormente: espero que se presenten mejores soluciones. UndercoverClassicist ^{T · C} 13:36, 13 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Jens

• Me pregunto por qué se ofrece una traducción completa de Safo 31 pero no se cita Safo 16 , a pesar de que gran parte de la discusión se centra en este último y se lo describió como "los versos más bellos de toda la poesía de Safo". Tener el original como referencia podría ayudar a apreciar el artículo.
  • Es un problema de extensión: el problema es que ella solo hace referencia a Anactoria a mitad de camino, pero se necesita la primera mitad para entenderlo, y citar el poema completo, pensé, sería un poco largo. Hay una versión aquí: ¿qué opinas? Me preocupa que haga que el cuadro de información/ilustración sea demasiado grande. UndercoverClassicist ^{T · C} 20:12, 15 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]
    • Como lector, personalmente preferiría mucho más la cita de Safo 16, que es la que menciona a Anactoria. Es un poco más larga, pero no creo que eso sea un gran problema. Sin ella, el artículo se parece un poco a la discusión de una pintura que no se puede ver. -- Jens Lallensack ( discusión ) 21:19 15 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

      Sí, estoy de acuerdo. Sin embargo, hay otro problema aquí, que es encontrar una buena traducción de PD: Storer no hizo 16. La que vinculé no es PD, por lo que no podemos incluirla aquí: hasta ahora, las únicas que puedo encontrar están aquí y aquí (busque "Anactoria" en cualquier caso). Honestamente, no creo que ninguna de las dos sea excelente, y si la traducción que ofrecemos no puede hacer al menos la mayor parte del trabajo de mostrar por qué personas como Robinson la admiran tanto, no va a hacer mucho bien. Pinging @ Caeciliusinhorto : ¿conoces una buena traducción de Safo 16 que sea utilizable (es decir, publicada antes de 1929, probablemente por un autor que murió antes de 1954?) UndercoverClassicist ^{T · C} 06:22, 16 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

      La mayoría de las traducciones de Safo 16 anteriores a 1929 que conozco se basan en la edición de John Maxwell Edmonds , que no me encanta. Se diferencia en algunos lugares clave de las lecturas modernas (en la segunda estrofa, el Loeb de Edmonds, por ejemplo, tiene "Helen examinó mucha belleza mortal", mientras que el Loeb moderno tiene "ella que superó con creces a la humanidad en belleza, Helen") y tiene algunas de las reconstrucciones características de Edmonds, incluyendo, por ejemplo, agregar "porque la mujer es muy fácil de doblar" al comienzo de la cuarta estrofa (no traducido en el Loeb moderno; Rayor 2014 tiene "... [in]doblando ... mente".
      El papiro se publicó inicialmente en el vol. X de los Papiros de Oxirrinco , y creo que Grenfell y Hunt todavía estaban haciendo traducciones exempli gratia en ese momento, así que puede intentar verificar eso, pero no tengo acceso mientras archive.org siga inactivo hasta la próxima vez que me arrastre a una biblioteca que lo tenga, así que no puedo comentar sobre eso con certeza. Caeciliusinhorto ( discusión ) 17:35, 16 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

      Gracias. Veré si puedo encontrar algo cuando Archive.org vuelva a estar disponible. Me preguntaba si había algún equivalente adecuado de Template:External media que pudiera funcionar aquí, pero no creo que exista para una fuente puramente textual. UndercoverClassicist ^{T · C} 19:21, 16 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

• ¿Por qué "En otra literatura clásica" es una subsección de "En Safo"? No parece encajar allí; en la sección "En Safo", esperaría que hubiera contenido únicamente sobre la literatura de Safo.
  • Otro caso en el que me sentí entre la espada y la pared: podríamos cambiar el título de L2 a "En la literatura clásica", pero eso parecería no darle a Safo el peso que le corresponde: pasaría por alto que escribir sobre Anactoria en la literatura clásica es , fundamentalmente, escribir sobre Safo. Por otro lado, esas otras menciones en la literatura clásica son derivados directos de la representación de Safo, mientras que las modernas tienen al menos una tenue pretensión de ser adaptaciones (por ejemplo) de Ovidio. Se me ocurrió una pequeña idea aquí: rebajé la subsección clásica a una "Recepción" ampliada. ¿Cómo se ve? UndercoverClassicist ^{T · C} 20:17, 15 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]
    • ¡Se ve bien! -- Jens Lallensack ( discusión ) 21:19 15 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]
• Una referencia a "Anagora" en la enciclopedia bizantina del siglo X conocida como la Suda . Me resultó un poco difícil de leer y no está del todo claro si "conocida como la Suda" se refiere a la enciclopedia o a la referencia. ¿Quizás "Una referencia a Anagora en la Suda, una enciclopedia bizantina del siglo X"? -- Jens Lallensack ( discusión ) 20:07 15 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]
  • Lo he hecho de una forma ligeramente diferente para que el texto sea más fluido y claro, pero creo que he logrado transmitir el mensaje. Estoy de acuerdo con tu diagnóstico. UndercoverClassicist ^{T · C} 20:12, 15 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Gracias como siempre, Jens. Respuestas anteriores. UndercoverClassicist ^{T · C} 20:12, 15 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Matarísvan

Hola UndercoverClassicist , mis comentarios:

• ¿Enlace a Glenn Most en el cuerpo y la bibliografía?
• ¿Por qué no hemos incluido un enlace a Denys Page en la bibliografía cuando lo hemos hecho en el cuerpo del artículo?
• Enlace a Ilja Leonard Pfeijffer en la nota 1 y la bibliografía.
• Enlace a Richard Aldington en la bibliografía, si de hecho fue él el traductor junto con Storer.
• ¿Enlace a Patrick J. Finglass en Purves 2021?
• ¿Enlace a William Smith (lexicógrafo) en la bibliografía?
• ¿Enlace a Garry Wills en el cuerpo y la bibliografía?

También podría hacer la revisión de la fuente si fuera necesario. Eso es todo por mi parte, saludos Matarisvan ( discusión ) 11:07, 17 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

• • Todo muy sabio y bien hecho. ¡Me encantaría que me hicieras una reseña de la fuente si te animas! UndercoverClassicist ^{T · C} 13:15, 17 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Temporada 2003-04 del Gillingham FC

Nominador(es): ChrisTheDude ( discusión ) 19:59 9 oct 2024 (UTC)[ responder ]

¡Hola! ¿Leíste y disfrutaste mi última nominación de la FAC, sobre cuando el Gillingham FC logró su mejor resultado en la historia del fútbol inglés ? Bueno, lee esta y ¡verás cómo las cosas empezaron a desmoronarse casi de inmediato! Esta lo tiene todo: multitudes que salen a las calles para protestar por el color de las camisetas de los jugadores, el equipo pasando por encima de los porteros como si fueran a pasar de moda, el entrenador expulsado por el árbitro y (casi seguro solo para demostrar algo) entrando inmediatamente al juego como jugador, un portero que sufre una lesión que pone fin a su carrera después de chocar con el portero del otro equipo, ¡y un corredor desnudo! Como siempre, los comentarios serán recibidos con mucho agradecimiento y se actuará con rapidez. -- ChrisTheDude ( discusión ) 19:59, 9 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Comentarios de Eem dik doun in toene

• En el cuadro de información, se dice que Agyemang fue el único máximo goleador del club en la liga con 6, pero en la tabla de jugadores, Spiller y Shaw también aparecen con 6 goles.
• Para mantener la coherencia, yo pondría algo como (en la foto...) en el texto debajo de las cinco fotos del artículo.
• "después de un error de Brown" ==> ¿Jason o Wayne Brown?
• Hice dos pequeñas correcciones en el artículo.
• Eso es todo por mi parte. ¡Excelente lectura! Eem dik doun in toene ( discusión ) 14:51 12 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

@ Eem dik doun in toene : - ¡Gracias por tu reseña, todo resuelto! -- ChrisTheDude ( discusión ) 15:22 12 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

• Soporte - Eem dik doun in toene ( discusión ) 16:07 12 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Monumento conmemorativo de la guerra de Busbridge

Nominador(es): Harry Mitchell ( discusión ) 15:05 8 oct 2024 (UTC)[ responder ]

Este es otro monumento conmemorativo de guerra de Lutyens. Probablemente el último de sus monumentos en Inglaterra que tiene suficiente cobertura para un FA, pero luego pensé lo mismo sobre el cenotafio y ¡me las arreglé para traer otros dos a través del FAC desde entonces! Este está en un pequeño pueblo en lo que (a principios del siglo XX) era una zona rural de Surrey, al suroeste de Londres, pero cuenta una historia interesante. Lutyens se convirtió en un arquitecto de renombre nacional, responsable de una serie de edificios famosos, pero su carrera comenzó en Busbridge cuando tenía unos 20 años y el pueblo contiene varias de sus obras. De hecho, fue aquí donde escuchó por primera vez el término "cenotafio", un término que vinculó indeleblemente con los monumentos conmemorativos de guerra, por lo que era apropiado que diseñara el monumento conmemorativo de guerra del pueblo.

Creé el artículo en 2016, pero siempre sentí que había más que decir. Un viaje reciente a Busbridge me inspiró a ver si podía "terminarlo". Estoy en deuda con @ Carcharoth , KJP1 y SchroCat por su ayuda y consejos , incluida la búsqueda de algunas fuentes difíciles de encontrar. No es un artículo largo, pero creo que cuenta la historia de manera integral. HJ Mitchell | ¿Un centavo por tus comentarios? 15:05, 8 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Revisión de imágenes

• A algunas imágenes les falta el texto alternativo. Nikkimaria ( discusión ) 05:15 9 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

@ Nikkimaria ¡gracias! Un descuido por mi parte. Ahora añadí las otras dos imágenes. HJ Mitchell | ¿Me das tu opinión? 11:50, 9 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Comentarios de Steelkamp

• "7 metros (23 pies) de altura" -> "7 metros de altura (23 pies)"
• "y se actualizó a" -> "y se actualizó a"
• Recomiendo incluir el enlace a Surrey en la primera mención del texto. También recomiendo incluir el enlace a Berkshire y Somerset .
• "y poseer "el mismo sentido superdesarrollado de las relaciones volumétricas que" El Cenotafio." -> "y poseer "el mismo sentido superdesarrollado de las relaciones volumétricas que" El Cenotafio."
• Se debe colocar un espacio indivisible entre "HM" según MOS:INITIALS .
• "descubrió varios monumentos de guerra en el condado" -> "descubrió varios otros monumentos de guerra en el condado".
• "Himno nacional". ¿Puede vincularse Dios Salve al Rey ?
• Hay varios casos en los que se utilizan corchetes en los que creo que sería mejor utilizar comas. Recomiendo estos cambios:
  • "Historic England (el organismo gubernamental responsable de la inclusión en el listado) reconoció los monumentos de guerra de Lutyens" -> "Historic England, el organismo gubernamental responsable de la inclusión en el listado, reconoció los monumentos de guerra de Lutyens"
  • "La cruz fue inaugurada por el general Sir Charles Monro (coronel del regimiento local) el 23 de julio de 1922" -> "La cruz fue inaugurada por el general Sir Charles Monro, coronel del regimiento local, el 23 de julio de 1922"
• El prólogo dice lo siguiente: "La relación condujo a que Lutyens recibiera muchos encargos de casas de campo en los primeros días de su carrera". Pero en el cuerpo del libro, la parte que menciona a Gertrude Jekyll aparece después de la parte sobre las casas de campo. ¿Fue la relación de Lutyen con Jekyll realmente la razón por la que Lutyen recibió muchos encargos de casas de campo?

  Es un poco complicado sin salirse demasiado del tema. Ya tenía su propio estudio y diseñaba casas de campo, pero su carrera realmente despegó después de Munstead Wood, donde recibió una serie de encargos para los amigos y la familia extensa de Jekyll. En ese momento se puso de moda, aunque es difícil saber si eso habría sucedido si no hubiera conocido a Jekyll. HJ Mitchell | ¿Qué opinas? 11:57, 9 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

  De cualquier manera, se debe cambiar el plomo para que sea consistente con el cuerpo o viceversa. Steelkamp ( discusión ) 15:48 9 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Esos son todos los comentarios que tengo. Steelkamp ( discusión ) 10:14 9 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

alta frecuencia

• "y pasó gran parte de su tiempo a partir de 1917 conmemorando a sus víctimas". - No veo dónde la fuente hace referencia específica a 1917
• "El monumento fue designado edificio catalogado de Grado II el 1 de febrero de 1991". - Problema de ubicación de la cita; la siguiente cita es [17] que no menciona esto, aunque está respaldada por [1] que se cita más adelante en el párrafo.

Buen trabajo, espero que me apoyen. Hog Farm _Talk 01:25, 11 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Comentarios de Tim Riley

Excelente artículo. Algunos pequeños detalles:

• "Su conexión con Busbridge" es una elección inesperada de preposición: normalmente, una casa está conectada a la red de gas, pero una persona está conectada con algún lugar o algo.
• "y fue ascendido a Grado II*" – ¿ascendido?
• "condujo a múltiples otras comisiones": no creo que necesites el "otro", que parece un poco extraño
• "El monumento de guerra de Busbridge fue uno de los varios que Lutyens construyó…" –y presumiblemente todavía lo es.
• "Realizó múltiples diseños para la cuñada de Jekyll". No estoy seguro de cómo se diseña a una cuñada. Tal vez sería menos Frankensteiniano si cambiaras "para" por "encargado por", "en nombre de" o algo así.
• "un eje cónico en forma de rombo" - arriesgándome y bastante preparado para que me digan que estoy diciendo tonterías, pero pensé que un rombo tenía la forma del símbolo de diamantes en una baraja de cartas, al que la imagen del monumento no se parece.
• "por el reverendo HM Larner" – una t minúscula es habitual para "el reverendo" en mitad de una oración.
• "todos están listados como de Grado II" – no hay peligro real de que le malinterpreten, pero podría ser bueno agregar "tres monumentos", no sea que alguien decidido a malinterpretar piense que eran las tres personas las que estaban en la lista.

Eso es todo por mi parte. Espero que al menos algunos de estos comentarios sean de utilidad. Tim riley talk 13:44, 13 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Comentarios de Carcharoth

Sólo algunos comentarios:

• No estoy de acuerdo con la frase "el cenotafio de Londres, al que dio el nombre de un banco de jardín en Munstead Wood" que aparece en el encabezamiento. Aprender el término "cenotafio" y usarlo en otro lugar no es lo mismo que ponerle el nombre de un banco de jardín a algo. También tengo mis dudas sobre las vidrieras que se dice que "conmemoran la guerra" (frase un poco torpe; véase también el próximo comentario).
• Decir "un par de vidrieras de Archibald Keightley Nicholson" no representa lo que hay allí. Hay seis vidrieras de 1919 de Nicholson, que forman tres pares. Un par es para "la guerra" (la que describes). El segundo par es para dos viejos habitantes de Shirburn que cayeron en la guerra. El tercer par es para Charles Henry Tisdall (otro de los que cayeron).
• Parece un poco extraño decir "lugares de muchos combates durante la guerra" para la catedral de Amiens. Desde allí se dominaban los campos de batalla del Somme y los veteranos que pasaron por allí o estuvieron de guarnición allí o cerca de allí habrían estado familiarizados con ella. Scapa Flow también podría explicarse un poco mejor. ¿Quizás se trate de un caso de "explicar adecuadamente" en lugar de hacerlo demasiado brevemente?
• ¿Dónde puede un lector curioso leer los 42 nombres? (¡En Internet, no en la pared de la iglesia!) Entre los nombres que aparecen en la pared de la iglesia se encuentra Francis McLaren, que (como usted señala) está enterrado en el cementerio con su propio monumento. No estoy seguro de si McLaren (que no era local, pero se casó con un miembro de la familia Jekyll, un punto que tal vez valga la pena mencionar) está en el cuadro de honor de Busbridge (parece que cumplió con los criterios de inclusión del comité local de monumentos de guerra que habría decidido tales cosas).
• Dado que el monumento no incluye los nombres, se podría argumentar que el libro de recuerdos de la iglesia es "parte" del monumento, por lo que podría haber un caso para incluir File:WWI book of remembrance in Busbridge Church (cropped).jpg ? No es la imagen más visual, pero agregaría al artículo, en mi opinión (las vidrieras se muestran en el artículo de la iglesia, y realmente deberíamos tener una lista adecuada de las vidrieras de Nicholson).
• ¿Se puede utilizar o citar (o encontrar en otro lugar) algo útil de esta página donde se describe el proceso de toma de decisiones? Advertencia: el enlace a los "nombres" ha sido objeto de ciberocupación. Los nombres están disponibles aquí (Registro de monumentos conmemorativos del IWM). Seguramente debe haber más detalles sobre el enfoque que se le dio a Lutyens para diseñar el monumento conmemorativo. ¿Todas las fuentes guardan silencio al respecto?
• Uno de los nombres de aquellos a quienes se conmemora en el monumento es el del séptimo conde de Shannon , Richard Bernard Boyle. No tengo idea de qué conexión tiene con Busbridge. Heredó el condado de su padre a la edad de nueve años y murió a los 19 años poco más de diez años después (EDIT: Aparentemente, en el momento de su muerte su dirección era una casa llamada 'Trusca' en Ramsden Road cerca de Busbridge, hacia Godalming. Su hermano menor [el siguiente conde, de 16 o 17 años] estaba en la India en 'Havelock House' y fue nombrado en la sucesión como administrador de los asuntos de la propiedad).

Ese último punto fue un poco tangencial, pero lo menciono en caso de que haya algo útil en una fuente adecuada (me parece que los criterios de inclusión fueron bastante amplios aquí, pero dudo que alguien haya escrito sobre eso; no está del todo claro si era un monumento de guerra parroquial o un monumento de guerra "local" definido de manera más amplia para aquellos con conexiones con el área, o simplemente familiares en el área). Carcharoth ( discusión ) 05:28, 16 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Factor de necrosis tumoral

Nominador(es): AdeptLearner123 ( discusión ) 05:40 8 oct 2024 (UTC)[ responder ]

Este artículo trata sobre un mensajero químico que media en el sistema inmunológico y es un factor clave en varias enfermedades autoinflamatorias. Este artículo pasó la prueba GAR hace unos días, por lo que ahora lo estoy nominando para que tenga el estatus FA.

AdeptLearner123 ( discusión ) 05:40 8 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

• El párrafo que comienza con 'En 1975, Elizabeth Carswell y…' no tiene soporte. - SchroCat ( discusión ) 06:34 8 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

  Corregido después de reescribir la sección Historial AdeptLearner123 ( discusión ) 00:20 13 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Revisión de imágenes

• Sugerir agregar texto alternativo

• Todas las imágenes que estén más allá de la principal deben ampliarse.

• Todas las imágenes que aparecen después de la imagen principal también necesitan fuentes para los datos presentados. Nikkimaria ( discusión ) 05:11 9 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Listo, me gustaría saber si las imágenes deberían ampliarse más y si las referencias son válidas. AdeptLearner123 ( discusión ) 19:26 12 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Ajpolino

Hola AdeptLearner123, bienvenido a FAC. Me alegra ver que estás interesado en seguir mejorando este artículo. Seguiré leyendo el artículo e intentaré resumir los comentarios a continuación. En este momento, creo que el artículo necesita bastante trabajo para cumplir con los criterios de FA , que son un estándar más alto que los criterios de GA. Desafortunadamente, no recibimos muchos FAC de biología molecular; de hecho, no recuerdo ninguno en los varios años que he tenido un ojo vago en FAC (aunque alguien limpió PfEMP1 para WikiJournal of Medicine en 2017, así que tal vez ese sea un modelo decente para considerar). Todavía estoy revisando el artículo y, por supuesto, eres más que bienvenido a ignorarme, pero mi sugerencia sería retirar la nominación y comenzar una revisión de pares de WP para intentar solicitar más comentarios sobre cómo mejorar el artículo para el estándar de FA. Al mismo tiempo, estar atento al proceso de FAC y participar en él te ayudará a avanzar en el proceso tú mismo. Muy bien, los comentarios que aparecen a continuación, separados por criterio de FA. Todos son sugerencias, más que exigencias.

1c. Bien investigado: fuentes confiables y de alta calidad.

• Historia - Intentamos construir nuestros artículos a partir de fuentes secundarias (es decir, somos voluntarios no expertos que resumen a expertos que resumen la literatura). Es posible que esté acostumbrado a escribir artículos científicos académicos donde el objetivo es ligeramente diferente (en los que su nombre/institución/reputación lo establecen como el experto y usted ejerce su experiencia para resumir un tema). Por lo tanto, en lugar de resumir artículos clave y citarlos, busque revisiones sobre la historia del TNF y resúmalas. De esa manera, los expertos establecidos nos guían sobre qué momentos de la historia son importantes, en lugar de que el lector confíe en que un editor de Wikipedia haya curado la historia de manera apropiada. Puede que le resulte útil echar un vistazo rápido a Ayuda:Edición de Wikipedia para expertos médicos .
• Historia#Aislamiento - "Cuando el TNF tenía... un peso de 45.000 kDa" No soy bioquímico, pero creo que la distinción en el artículo es que en el primer caso desnaturalizaron lo que salió de la columna de HPLC con SDS PAGE (y así se obtiene el monómero). En el segundo, utilizaron condiciones no desnaturalizantes (y así se obtiene el trímero). Si tuviera que resumir la HPLC de fase inversa en pocas palabras (algo que nadie me confiaría) diría "que separa las moléculas por su hidrofobicidad". Su resumen "que rompe las proteínas en moléculas constituyentes" sería mi breve resumen de la espectrometría de masas en tándem .
• La editorial MDPI tiene una reputación dudosa y, a menudo (aunque no siempre), es un lugar donde los autores publican si carecen de los resultados, el prestigio o la aceptación general para publicar en otro lugar. Dado que nuestro objetivo es resumir las mejores fuentes disponibles, a menudo evitamos las revistas MDPI o, al menos, consideramos cuidadosamente por qué cada una de ellas aporta información irreemplazable y confiable al artículo. Usted cita tres artículos en International Journal of Molecule Science.
• Lo mismo ocurre con las revistas de Frontiers Media , aunque mi opinión personal es que la gente desconfía menos de las revistas de Frontiers que de las de MDPI.

1a. Bien escrito, "La prosa es atractiva..."

• Líder: No estoy seguro de si "media el sistema inmunológico" tendrá mucho significado para la mayoría de los lectores. ¿Podríamos aclararlo y decir algo como "... mensajero producido por las células inmunes que induce la inflamación"?
• Plomo - " receptores objetivo " No estoy seguro de que el objetivo aporte algún significado.
• Plomo: ¿Existe alguna diferencia entre “inmunocitocinas” y “citocinas” (a lo que esto redirige)?
• Plomo: “sin dependencia de la síntesis de otras proteínas”. No estoy seguro de que esta distinción deba estar en el plomo.
• Plomo - "incluir... [lista]... entre otros" es redundante.
• Líder: "El TNF desempeña un papel... como contribuir a..." la gramática es un poco rara. "¿Funciones... como..."? O si esa es la única función no inmune, puedes simplemente omitir "como".
• Plomo - “La producción excesiva de TNF es un factor clave en los trastornos inflamatorios…” ya nos lo decías al final del párrafo 1.
• Título: "Debido al importante y complejo papel del TNF en el sistema inmunológico..." Probablemente puedas omitirlo. Lo sabemos por el resto de la sección. Se lee como un editorial.
• Historia#Aislamiento - "con los segmentos ricos en proteínas identificados por su absorción de luz de 280 nm". Este parece un detalle sin importancia. Así es como funciona la cromatografía de proteínas.
• Historia#Aislamiento - Creo que los detalles experimentales en esta sección podrían recortarse un poco sin perder el hilo de la historia del TNF (por ejemplo, ¿nos importa que hayan usado una sonda de 42 pb?)
• Historia#Fisiología - "Junio ​​de 1981" Resulta extraño marcar cada descubrimiento con solo un año, excepto este, que lleva un mes. ¿Nos importa que este descubrimiento haya sido en junio?
• Historia#Fisiológica - "La evidencia acumulada...tratamiento del cáncer" se lee como un editorial y resulta una sorpresa ya que parece poco relacionado con el resto de la sección (que es un paseo por la historia).
• En general, la sección de historia es una lectura entrecortada. "En el año X, esto sucedió. En el año Y, esto sucedió. Etc." Y los pasos hacia atrás en el tiempo para cada subsección son un poco antinaturales. Sería genial si la sección pudiera desarrollarse cronológicamente, como es típico en las historias. Dicho esto, aprecio que haya varias líneas de investigación que se superponen parcialmente; por lo tanto, tal vez una historia cronológica no sea posible.
• Gene#Expression - "TNF se denota como TNFSF2 en la superfamilia del factor de necrosis tumoral" ¿Qué tiene esto que ver con la expresión genética?
• Gen#Mejorasom - "La composición... sitio de unión compatible" Esto parece un detalle innecesario.
• Gen#Enhanceosome - "El CRE y... y la maquinaria de transcripción". No entiendo muy bien la distinción que estás haciendo aquí entre complejos centrales y de anclaje. ¿Es este un concepto común en la regulación genética?
• Gene#Other - "El factor de transcripción NF-κB... al promotor" parece tener más detalles de los necesarios para la historia del TNF.
• Gene#Regulation - "Varios estudios... Otros estudios" es WP:WEASEL WORDS , o tal vez solo lenguaje científico. Podrías comenzar cada oración del artículo con "Algunos estudios han demostrado..."
• Gene#Regulación - "también se ha descubierto que regulan" = "también regulan" Esta última forma es más corta y clara.
• Evolución: tal vez sea una cuestión de gustos personales, pero creo que la evolución podría ser elevada a una sección completa. El material realmente se relaciona con el TNF en su conjunto, más que el resto de la sección sobre genética.
• Proteína: creo que el comienzo de esta sección podría estar escrito de forma más clara. Por ejemplo, nos dice que es una proteína TM de tipo 2 sin definición. Luego, unas pocas oraciones más adelante, define la orientación. Tal vez sería más claro darnos solo la orientación y ahorrarse la jerga. No necesita ser legible para un profano en la materia, pero debería ser legible e interesante para un estudiante universitario que estudie biología.
• Proteína#Forma transmembrana: "El extremo N es... El extremo C es". A menos que se trate de una cuestión regional, la gramática no es del todo correcta. Se podría decir "El extremo N es..." o "El extremo N es..."
• Proteína#Forma soluble - La prosa aquí es lo suficientemente aburrida como para que yo pensara "Vaya, apuesto a que un cristalógrafo escribió esto" y, efectivamente, el texto está tomado en algunos lugares del artículo citado. Las oraciones/fragmentos son lo suficientemente similares al texto protegido por derechos de autor como para que yo piense que es un problema:
  • "similar al motivo estructural "jelly-roll" característico de las proteínas de la capa viral" vs la fuente "similitud con el motivo estructural "jelly-roll" característico de las proteínas de la capa viral"
  • "La lámina β superior consta de tres largas hebras β complementadas con un bucle de dos hebras β adicionales, mientras que la lámina β inferior consta de cinco hebras β de longitud decreciente constante. La hebra β media de la lámina β inferior contiene los últimos 9 residuos del C-terminal, fijándolo en su posición". vs. la fuente "La lámina superior (lámina 1) está enroscada con tres largas hebras complementadas... por un bucle de dos hebras adicionales. La lámina inferior (lámina 2) comprende cinco hebras de longitud decreciente constante. La hebra media de esta lámina consta de los últimos 9 residuos del C-terminal".
• "la superficie interna" Me quedé un momento confundido pensando que esto se refería al núcleo de un monómero, y me sorprendí. Ahora veo que en cambio "superficie interna" se refiere a la superficie del monómero que toca los otros dos monómeros en el trímero. Tal vez podrías decirlo más claramente. "Superficie interna" suena casi a oxímoron.

Continuando, ¡sólo tengo que alejarme de la computadora por un momento! Mantente atento. Ajpolino ( discusión ) 20:44, 9 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) Voy a parar aquí por ahora y ceñirme a mi recomendación anterior. Si estás interesado en seguir mejorando este artículo para el estándar de FA (¡lo cual recomiendo! ¡Es gratificante!) y te gustaría recibir más comentarios, házmelo saber y estaré encantado de ayudarte. Todo lo mejor, Ajpolino ( discusión ) 19:47, 11 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

¡Gracias por los comentarios tan completos! He reescrito la sección de historia utilizando fuentes secundarias, que omiten detalles experimentales. Noté que el artículo al que se hace referencia, Plasmodium_falciparum_erythrocyte_membrane_protein_1 , cita fuentes primarias e incluye detalles experimentales en su sección Discovery. Como tal, estoy confundido sobre cuál es el alcance adecuado de una sección de historia de proteínas. ¡Cualquier orientación al respecto será apreciada! AdeptLearner123 ( discusión ) 01:33, 13 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

He revisado las secciones de genes y proteínas. Avísenme cómo se ven ahora y si hay algo más que deba cambiarse. También me pregunto si la sección de funciones contiene demasiados detalles sobre la señalización celular que deberían trasladarse a las páginas de TNFR1/TNFR2. AdeptLearner123 ( discusión ) 07:35 13 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Plaza Austin J. Tobin

Nominador(es): Sir MemeGod  15:02, 7 de octubre de 2024 (UTC)[ responder ]

Este artículo trata sobre una plaza que estaba ubicada en el sitio del World Trade Center en el Bajo Manhattan, Ciudad de Nueva York, hasta su (desafortunada) destrucción el 11 de septiembre de 2001. Tenía varias esculturas famosas que estaban ubicadas en ella y se convirtió en una ruta de evacuación durante el ataque terrorista más letal en la historia del mundo moderno. Yo (con el co-nominador honorario Epicgenius, debo admitir que no habría sido aprobado sin su extraordinaria ayuda) logré que el artículo alcanzara el estado de GA hace unos días, y voy a intentar obtener el estado de FA. Esta es mi primera nominación, así que pido disculpas si me equivoco en algo. :) Señor MemeGod  15:02 7 octubre 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Revisión de imágenes

• Sugerir agregar texto alternativo

• No utilices un tamaño de px fijo, consulta MOS:IMGSIZE . Nikkimaria ( discusión ) 05:14 9 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

@ Nikkimaria : Se han abordado los problemas. :) Señor MemeGod  12:40 9 octubre 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

1 Wall Street

Nominador(es): Epicgenius ( discusión ) 14:23 7 oct 2024 (UTC)[ responder ]

Este artículo trata sobre otro edificio de Wall Street en la ciudad de Nueva York. Esta vez, se trata de un rascacielos de oficinas que se construyó entre 1929 y 1931 como sede de un banco antes de convertirse en un edificio residencial. El edificio tiene algunas características arquitectónicas notables, como una fachada de piedra caliza en forma de cortina, una sala roja poligonal con relucientes mosaicos y (originalmente) un salón ejecutivo con un techo de triple altura. Incluso el sitio, al pie de Wall Street, alguna vez fue considerado uno de los sitios más valiosos del mundo. La estructura puede no ser el edificio más alto de la zona, o incluso de la calle, pero al menos en mi opinión, es una de las obras maestras del Art Decó menos conocidas de la ciudad de Nueva York.

Esta página se convirtió en un buen artículo hace cuatro años después de una revisión de GAN por parte de SurenGrig07 y Hog Farm, por la que estoy muy agradecido. Después de algunas correcciones de estilo más recientes, creo que la página está a la altura de la calidad de FA. Espero con interés todos los comentarios y opiniones. Epicgenius ( discusión ) 14:23 7 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Juego de cambio

Nominador(es): Iago Qnsi ( discusión ) 18:22, 6 de octubre de 2024 (UTC)[ responder ]

Este artículo trata sobre un partido de baloncesto histórico que se jugó en 1963 y marcó la primera vez que un equipo importante de Mississippi se enfrentó a un equipo con jugadores negros. El artículo actual no es muy diferente de la versión que se aprobó en 2020, pero después de hablar con algunas personas amables de WCNA , decidí buscar mi primer FA mientras estaba sentado aquí en el auditorio esperando la sesión informativa. Muchas gracias a todos los que se toman el tiempo de leer esto y brindar comentarios. Iago Qnsi ( discusión ) 18:22, 6 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Comentarios

• El baloncesto universitario Link se utiliza por primera vez en el cuerpo
• Link Loyola en su primer uso en el cuerpo
• "que no pudo tocarlo" => "que no pudo tocarlo"
• Enlace Miss State en primer uso en cuerpo
• "que había tenido un bye en la primera ronda" => "que había recibido un bye en la primera ronda"
• "incluido el senador estatal" - escriba esto completo, al menos en el primer uso
• "incluido el gobernador Ross R. Barnett" - escriba el texto completo
• En ninguna parte se menciona cuándo se le dio a este juego el título de "Juego de cambio" ni quién lo dio. ¿Se sabe esto?
• Eso es todo :-) -- ChrisTheDude ( discusión ) 10:10 7 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

  @ ChrisTheDude : ¡Gracias por la reseña! Seguí adelante e hice todas esas correcciones de estilo. En cuanto al origen del nombre, publiqué en la página de discusión con algo de investigación hace un tiempo. Parece haber sido acuñado por los creadores del documental de 2008 Game of Change . No tengo una fuente que indique explícitamente que la película inventó el nombre, pero me di cuenta de que simplemente describir la existencia de la película probablemente sería valioso; tal vez podamos confiar en que los lectores conecten los puntos. Amplié la sección Legacy para agregar un poco de información sobre la película; ¿te importaría echarle otro vistazo? Gracias, Iago Qnsi ( discusión ) 23:45, 7 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

• Soporte -- ChrisTheDude ( discusión ) 07:28 8 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Dirigible

Una pregunta rápida para empezar: ¿por qué una gran parte del artículo se basa en fuentes de periódicos contemporáneos y no en libros de aspecto útil consignados en la sección "Lecturas adicionales"? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 ( discusión ) 13:09 8 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Suelo preferir citar una fuente que sea más accesible para los lectores, por lo que hago un uso intensivo de los recortes de Newspapers.com. El libro de Michael Lenehan , Ramblers , el artículo de Russell Henderson en Journal of Southern History y el artículo de Alexander Wolff "Ghosts of Mississippi" fueron las principales obras que utilicé para descifrar los trazos generales del artículo, pero a menudo quería un poco más de detalle del que proporcionaban y, por lo tanto, terminé citando periódicos de la época. – Iago Qnsi ( discusión ) 14:02, 8 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Lamentablemente, ese método suele ser problemático: si un autor elige activamente qué partes del artículo "merecen" más detalles, a menudo termina con preguntas sobre el equilibrio y la ponderación (también conocido como criterio 1d) ; sin mencionar que 1c) coloca la exhaustividad por encima de la accesibilidad) .

Por ejemplo, en las páginas 193-196 de Ramblers , Lenehan hace mucho hincapié en el papel personal que desempeñó Babe McCarthy para que el equipo de Mississippi llegara al torneo. No es de extrañar que esa acción tras bambalinas no apareciera en absoluto en los periódicos de la época, por lo que el artículo actual evita cualquier mención de su papel.

Solo he revisado un par de páginas de Ramblers , pero ya veo los problemas que suele causar el uso excesivo de fuentes primarias. Le recomendaría que retire esta candidatura y que intente trabajar con el mayor detalle posible a partir de las fuentes académicas, recurriendo únicamente a las fuentes de los periódicos en caso de necesidad extrema, antes de volver a nominar. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 ( discusión ) 15:29 8 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

@ AirshipJungleman29 y Generalissima : Gracias por los comentarios. Originalmente, creé el artículo basándome en las fuentes académicas, pero luego busqué artículos de periódicos para profundizar más. No le di más importancia a los detalles adicionales que encontré; las fuentes adicionales solo me dieron más flexibilidad en términos de redacción, citas, etc. Creo que esto fue valioso en algunos lugares, pero también veo que debería haberme concentrado más en citar las fuentes académicas.

He rediseñado las citas y ahora casi todo en las secciones de antecedentes, resumen del juego y consecuencias está respaldado por Lenehan, Veazey, Henderson o Wolff. También he ampliado algunas de las partes más débiles de estas secciones con muchos más detalles, incluido el papel de McCarthy en impulsar la participación de la NCAA como mencionaste. He mantenido varias de las citas de periódicos contemporáneos en el artículo, pero el artículo no depende estrictamente de ellas. ¡Por favor, dime lo que piensas; realmente aprecio tus comentarios detallados! Gracias, Iago Qnsi ( discusión ) 05:06, 9 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Generalísima

En sintonía con Airship, creo que sería una buena idea citar los libros además de los periódicos. Las fuentes primarias están bien como apoyo, pero nunca deberían ser los pilares principales para algo que se cubre en fuentes académicas. Generalissima ( discusión ) (it/she) 14:26 8 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

La Isla Bonita

Nominador(es): Christian ( discusión ) 16:33, 6 de octubre de 2024 (UTC)[ responder ]

Este artículo trata sobre una de las canciones más emblemáticas y conocidas de la cantante estadounidense Madonna , "La Isla Bonita". Habiendo nominado este artículo anteriormente, y habiendo leído los comentarios dejados por otros usuarios, fui fuente por fuente, asegurándome de que todo lo mencionado esté citado correctamente. Christian ( discusión ) 16:33 6 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Benjamín F. McAdoo

Nominador(es): Generalísima ( charla ) (ello/ella) 14:57, 4 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Benjamin Franklin McAdoo Jr. fue el primer arquitecto negro con licencia en el estado de Washington. Tuvo una carrera larga y productiva, que incluyó trabajos en el área de Seattle, Jamaica y Washington, DC. También intentó (sin éxito) postularse para la legislatura del estado de Washington. ¡Me divertí mucho escribiendo este artículo y espero que la gente disfrute leyéndolo! Generalissima ( discusión ) (it/she) 14:57 4 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Comentarios de PMC

Ya hice mi revisión de GA con miras a que esto sea un FAC en el futuro, pero lo leeré nuevamente. ♠ PMC ♠ (discusión) 23:23 4 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Revisión de imágenes

• A la imagen principal le falta el texto alternativo

Además, no es un comentario sobre la imagen, pero sugeriría una revisión de los problemas con MOS . Nikkimaria ( discusión ) 04:47 5 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Fuego de nieve

Buen trabajo. Como es habitual, se aclara que estos comentarios son sugerencias, no exigencias. Algunos comentarios:

• Se interesó por la arquitectura, motivado por su creencia en el [[Derecho a la vivienda|la vivienda como un derecho humano]]

No estoy seguro de que esta sea la mejor redacción. ¿Es del artículo de Mahmoud? Porque dice: "Estaba muy preocupado por los derechos humanos... No solo creía en la vivienda justa, sino que sentía que debía participar en ella". No estoy seguro de que sea exactamente lo mismo, y el artículo sobre el derecho a la vivienda habla de ello como un concepto de los años 90 que vendría después. Es evidente que Mahmoud creía en la vivienda asequible, pero no estoy seguro de que la redacción actual sea la mejor manera de expresarlo, a menos que haya otra fuente que relacione esta conexión de forma más clara. (EDICIÓN: Veo que añadiste esto porque PMC lo recomendó en la revisión de GA. Bueno, supongo que depende de ti, yo diría que reformules y/o no incluyas el enlace, pero está bien sin importar cuál sea tu decisión).

• El distrito 37, con una población predominantemente negra

No estoy seguro de que esto sea exactamente lo que dice la fuente. "Este distrito contenía los barrios predominantemente negros de Seattle". A pesar del error tipográfico, creo que está diciendo que, en la medida en que Seattle tenía gente negra, vivían aquí, pero eso no significa que fuera "predominantemente negra" en general. Seattle tenía cierta reputación de ser completamente blanca fuera del Distrito Internacional en esa época, según tengo entendido vagamente. Creo que necesitamos una mejor fuente si el Distrito 37 realmente era predominantemente negro.

• Elecciones de 1954

Hay varias escuelas de pensamiento sobre el nivel adecuado de concisión, pero creo que el texto actual es demasiado conciso y hará que los lectores tengan que hacer clic en enlaces wiki para adquirir suficiente contexto para entender lo que realmente estaba sucediendo. Tal como está, el comentario sobre Charles M. Stokes parece que podría ser simplemente un trasfondo histórico sobre los políticos negros en Washington, y no es inmediatamente obvio que esté vinculado a la vacante. Además, los lectores no estadounidenses pueden no darse cuenta de que muchos distritos legislativos estatales eligen a los 2 candidatos principales y se confundirán sobre por qué el número 3 demandó al número 2. Finalmente, citar a un abogado del lado perdedor tiende a ser un poco dudoso en general: a menudo exponen el caso como lo entienden sus clientes y es un relato muy parcial. (No digo que no pueda ser cierto también , pero no es una fuente muy impresionante en general). En particular, según lo que dice el artículo, parece que la persona número 3 tenía razón: la casa de McAdoo realmente no estaba en el distrito 37. (Por supuesto, es posible que los abogados de McAdoo también tuvieran razón en que las reglas podrían no haberse aplicado tan estrictamente para un candidato bendecido por las máquinas). Sugeriría algo como "Charles M. Stokes fue elegido para la Cámara de Representantes de Washington por el distrito 37 en 1950 y 1952 por períodos de dos años, pero optó por postularse para el Senado estatal en su lugar en 1954. McAdoo se presentó a las primarias del Partido Demócrata para el escaño que Stokes estaba dejando vacante. Su plataforma..." (Y luego decir algo sobre la naturaleza de los dos primeros puestos del avance). Pero depende de usted.

• Fue arquitecto autorizado en cinco jurisdicciones: Alaska, el Distrito de Columbia, Montana, Oregón y el estado de Washington.

Este es un punto bastante menor. Entiendo que para las figuras menos famosas hay más espacio para los detalles, pero no creo que la mayoría de los arquitectos/abogados/etc. tengan mencionados los estados para los que están certificados, a menos que sea de alguna manera relevante (por ejemplo, que en realidad no tenían una certificación y estaban haciendo arquitectura en negro o algo similar). Tal vez sea mejor eliminarlo o verificar la relevancia de esta lista. SnowFire ( discusión ) 22:25 11 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Bueno, parte 2.

• Afroamericano

Las guías de estilo difieren en este caso en cuanto a si se debe incluir un guion, y no se pueden controlar las categorías ni ver también los enlaces a otros artículos de Wikipedia, pero yo diría que hay que ser coherentes en este artículo. Se utilizan tanto la versión con guiones como la versión sin guiones; yo diría que hay que elegir una.

• Comenzó a recibir encargos para diseñar residencias privadas.

Mega-nit: La intención de esto es clara y siéntete libre de dejarlo como está si así es como se expresa en la arquitectura, pero ¿quizás "encargos para diseñar residencias privadas"? En teoría, esto podría malinterpretarse como si los propios encargos diseñaran residencias privadas.

• Trabajaba de noche y asistía a clases durante el día, pero se vio obligado a retirarse de la universidad por razones económicas.

Discutir sobre comas es a menudo una cuestión de estilo que no merece la pena, pero yo diría que a pesar de todas las comas anteriores, hay que incluir una después de "día" para insinuar la diferencia de tiempo.

• Eligió inscribirse en la UW

Opcional: ¿Vale la pena decir que sí, que él y su familia se mudaron a Seattle? Solo que dijimos anteriormente que se mudó con su familia a Portland, y no es del todo raro dejar a la familia atrás y viajar de un lado a otro los fines de semana o días similares.

• 887 pies cuadrados (82,4 m2), 620 pies cuadrados (58 m2)

Meganit: Convert tiene un parámetro sigfig, por lo que recomendaría {{convert|887|sqft|m2|abbr=on|sigfig=2}}. Los 0,4 metros cuadrados adicionales no son realmente pertinentes ni relevantes. De manera similar, ¿eran exactamente 620 pies cuadrados o solo unos 620 pies cuadrados? Supongo que es lo último, por lo que sugeriría convertir esa conversión a solo 1 y ~60 m^2.

• La integración del diseño en el paisaje circundante.

¿Es esto del artículo de Mumford? Lamentablemente, no está en la biblioteca de Wikipedia. Es más una charla informal que una solicitud de cambio, pero es un poco sorprendente... la idea de la "Casa del Mérito" y las casas modulares en Jamaica parecen sugerir que los objetivos habituales de McAdoo eran que fueran más "asequibles y eficientes", mientras que la "integración en el paisaje" me sugiere un enfoque más a medida, artesanal y costoso (es decir, las casas de la cascada del mundo). ¿Realmente hizo casas pequeñas que también se integraban en los paisajes y cosas por el estilo? ¡Impresionante si así fuera!

• A finales de la década de 1960, regresó a la práctica privada a tiempo completo, donde se especializó en edificios cívicos y educativos como el Banco de Sangre de Southcenter (1970), el Centro Cultural Étnico de la Universidad de Washington (1972) y la Piscina Queen Anne (1977).

Charla aparte: esto es culpa de la fuente, no tuya, pero es una lástima que no se especifique con precisión qué hizo McAdoo por estos edificios ni cuál fue su papel. ¿Alguna de las otras fuentes entró en más detalles sobre su carrera en los años 70?

Se ve muy sólido en general, ¡gran trabajo!

Tyla (álbum)

Nominadores: dxneo ( discusión ) 08:45, 4 de octubre de 2024 (UTC)[ responder ]

Este artículo trata sobre... el álbum de estudio homónimo de Tyla , lanzado en marzo de 2024. Fue grabado en varios países durante más de dos años. Precedido por " Water ", que ganó el premio Grammy inaugural a la Mejor Interpretación de Música Africana , el álbum debutó en el puesto número 24 del Billboard 200 después de vender 24.000 unidades en su primera semana, lo que lo convirtió en el álbum con la posición más alta en la lista Billboard 200 de una solista africana en la historia de la lista. Fue descrito como un álbum que no se puede saltar.
Soy consciente de que este álbum está nominado a pocos premios, pero me he propuesto mantenerlo mientras siga activo. dxneo ( discusión ) 08:45, 4 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Incidente de Roswell

Nominador(es): Feoffer ( discusión ) 04:14 2 oct 2024 (UTC)[ responder ]

Este artículo trata sobre una teoría de la conspiración que sostiene que el accidente de un globo de las Fuerzas Aéreas del Ejército de los Estados Unidos en 1947 cerca de Roswell, Nuevo México, en realidad fue causado por una nave espacial extraterrestre. Con una amplia y pulida fuente, el artículo detalla los hechos reales de 1947, el posterior auge de las teorías de la conspiración sobre ovnis, el surgimiento de las teorías de la conspiración sobre Roswell, su evolución y su posterior desacreditación. Feoffer ( discusión ) 04:14 2 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Revisión de imágenes

• Archivo:Marcel-roswell-debris_0.jpg: ¿de dónde proviene ese etiquetado? No es coherente con lo que hay en el sitio de origen. Lo mismo ocurre con el archivo:Ramey-dubose-debris.jpg
  • Las imágenes se publicaron sin aviso de derechos de autor en julio de 1947 y nunca se renovaron, por lo que pasaron a ser de dominio público. Si bien las imágenes inéditas de la colección de la UTA quedarían bajo la licencia Creative Commons, la UTA no puede reclamar los derechos de autor sobre una réplica fiel en 2D de una imagen de dominio público. Feoffer ( discusión ) 06:43 2 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]
    • ¿Se sabe que estas imágenes en particular se publicaron en 1947? Tampoco veo eso en el sitio de origen. Si se puede demostrar, sugeriría que se elimine la licencia CC sobre la base de que las imágenes son PD. Sin embargo, si no se puede, la licencia CC que utiliza UTA es BY-NC, no BY-SA, que es la etiqueta que tienen actualmente las imágenes. Nikkimaria ( discusión ) 00:37 3 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]
      • Se arregló Ramey-dubose agregando la primera publicación y eliminando la licencia CC. Feoffer ( discusión ) 05:02 3 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

      La licencia indicada por la UTA probablemente no sea relevante. No veo ninguna razón por la que tendrían los derechos sobre la foto, por lo que la licencia sería para escanearla y subirla. Si las fotos son de dominio público, entonces no se necesita la licencia de la UTA, pero si no lo son, entonces la licencia de la UTA no es válida. J. Bond Johnson tomó ambas fotos para el Fort Worth Star-Telegram el 8 de julio de 1947. El Telegram y otros periódicos publicaron las fotos el 9 y el 10. El Telegram no tenía un aviso de derechos de autor. Rjj ⁱⁱⁱ ( discusión ) 02:27 4 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

• Archivo:Aztec-hoax-pic.png: el cargador no es el titular de los derechos de autor aquí
  • Corregido, el campo de carga ahora refleja la derivación de la imagen publicada en 1950. Feoffer ( discusión ) 06:50, 2 octubre 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]
• Archivo:Captura de pantalla de Alien Prop de Roswell, The OVNI Cover Up (1994).jpeg Necesita un FUR más fuerte. Lo mismo ocurre con Archivo:Alien_Autopsy_Fact_or_Fiction_1995_screenshot_cropped.png, Archivo:Jose_Chung_alien_autopsy_screenshot.png
  • He mejorado el primero. Estoy abierto a más consejos. Feoffer ( discusión ) 16:10 4 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]
  • También mejoré los otros dos. Feoffer ( discusión ) 05:07 5 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

• Archivo:Rosewell_Reports,_Volume_1.ogv: el enlace de origen parece dirigir a un video no relacionado, verifique

• corregido Feoffer ( discusión ) 04:49 2 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]
• También renombré el archivo. Rosewell->Roswell Feoffer ( discusión ) 05:18 5 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

• Archivo:Roswell_Sign_01_(cropped).jpg: ¿cuál es el estado de los derechos de autor del cartel? Nikkimaria ( discusión ) 04:32 2 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

  ¿Tienes algún consejo sobre cómo puedo averiguarlo? El cartel fue creado por la ciudad como parte de su campaña turística del 70.° aniversario, se encuentra en terrenos públicos y no hay ninguna indicación de que la ciudad reclame derechos de autor: NYTimes solo da crédito a su propio fotógrafo. Feoffer ( discusión ) 05:12 2 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

• ¿Se sabe cuándo se colocó el cartel? Véase Commons:Commons:Public_art_and_copyrights_in_the_US. Nikkimaria ( discusión ) 00:37 3 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

  He investigado esto para ti. Los carteles fueron creados por EG Structural de Phoenix para la ciudad de Roswell. Se dieron a conocer formalmente en mayo de 2017. Feoffer ( discusión ) 05:28 3 octubre 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

  Descripción actualizada en Commons para reflejar el origen del signo. Feoffer ( discusión ) 12:59 5 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

  @ Nikkimaria y Feoffer : cambié esta imagen por File:Roswell NM Main Street.jpg . Los ojos "alienígenas" aplicados a las farolas son solo un par de formas geométricas comunes y no están sujetos a derechos de autor. Intenté enviar un correo electrónico a la ciudad y a EGS la semana pasada, pero no recibí respuesta de ninguno de los dos. Rjj ⁱⁱⁱ ( discusión ) 22:53, 8 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Soporte de HAL

Marcando un lugar. Pronto habrá comentarios. ~ HAL 333 17:53, 5 octubre 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Gracias de antemano por los comentarios. Excelente nombre de usuario y firma. Feoffer ( discusión ) 13:58 6 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

• No me gusta mucho la frase "el accidente de un globo de las Fuerzas Aéreas del Ejército de los Estados Unidos en 1947 cerca de Roswell, Nuevo México, en realidad fue causado por una nave espacial extraterrestre". Implica que un OVNI provocó el accidente de un globo.
• "había restos metálicos y de caucho" --> "había"
• "La confianza en el gobierno de Estados Unidos disminuyó y se generalizó la aceptación de las teorías conspirativas". ¿Puede explicar por qué? Tal vez podría mencionar el asesinato de John F. Kennedy y el escándalo Watergate. Creo que mencionar este último es especialmente apropiado, ya que luego utiliza el término "Watergate cósmico".
• "El 20 de septiembre de 1980, la serie de televisión En busca de..." — ¿Puedes mencionar que este episodio fue presentado por Leonard Nimoy ?
• Stanton Friedman está vinculado más de una vez
• "en descomposición por la exposición y los depredadores" — creo que "carroñeros" es más apropiado que "depredadores".
• Yo pondría un enlace a Oliver Stone
• "Thomas DuBose... reconoció la historia del globo meteorológico" — Esta oración es confusa. ¿Reconoce que se trata de una historia del globo o que se trata de una tapadera? ¿O que se trata de una tapadera para Mogul? ¿O de un platillo? Por favor, aclare.
• "un congresista de Nuevo México" - ¿Podrías nombrarlo?
• "Santilli lo admitiría años después" --> "Santilli admitió años después" según WP:WOULDCHUCK , ¿y puedes dar el año real de la admisión?
• Este problema aparece en otros lugares:
  • "La Fuerza Aérea más tarde describiría el" --> "La Fuerza Aérea más tarde describió el
  • “Surgió Nuevo México que luego formaría elementos”
  • "Cuerpos extraterrestres que luego se asociarían con Roswell"
  • "Los investigadores independientes encontrarían patrones"
  • "Doty diría más tarde"
• Terminator 2 debería estar en cursiva, no entre comillas.
• Yo pondría un enlace a Kodachrome
• Quitaría los meses de "En septiembre de 2017" y de "En febrero de 2020". No son necesarios para la comprensión del lector, no se dan para la mayoría de las fechas más antiguas y me parecen recentistas .
• "Globo meteorológico" está vinculado en la subsección del Proyecto Mogul, pero no en su primera mención mucho antes...
• "Thomas DuBose" también tiene enlaces duplicados, pero aún no aparece vinculado en su primera mención.
• "Los ufólogos habían considerado previamente" - "previamente" es redundante ya que se utiliza el pasado perfecto

Muy buen trabajo. Te felicito por abordar un tema como este. ~ HAL 333 14:44, 6 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

¡Todos tienen muy buenos puntos! Creo que los tenemos todos. Feoffer ( discusión ) 02:41 7 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Un placer apoyarte . ~ HAL 333 05:35, 7 octubre 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

• Lamentablemente, solo necesito señalar que, por coincidencia, he identificado un problema de copyvio relacionado con un importante colaborador de este artículo. No he evaluado hasta qué punto sus contribuciones persisten en la versión actual, pero será necesario realizar comprobaciones puntuales cuidadosas. Nikkimaria ( discusión ) 02:05, 16 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

  @ Nikkimaria ¡Gracias por investigar! Al mirar las diferencias y ejecutar "Who Wrote That" (suponiendo que tengo el editor correcto), veo correcciones de estilo, referencias, formato y eliminaciones. Sin embargo, un mayor escrutinio nunca está de más, Rjj ⁱⁱⁱ ( discusión ) 02:40, 16 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

  También revisé las ediciones del usuario con copyvio (suponiendo que tengo la correcta), pero son principalmente eliminaciones y pulido de referencias. Feoffer ( discusión ) 10:33, 16 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Monumento a la Bota

Nominadores: ‍ Relatividad ⚡️ 22:12, 1 de octubre de 2024 (UTC)[ responder ]

Este artículo trata sobre un extraño monumento ubicado en el Parque Histórico Nacional de Saratoga, Nueva York. Tiene forma de bota. Sin embargo, el homenajeado del monumento nunca se menciona en el monumento porque su nombre era Benedict Arnold , alguien que traicionó al ejército continental ante el ejército británico. He llevado este artículo de la clase Start a la clase GA ( revisión ), y luego lo hice revisar para la clase A, que pasó. Creo que ahora está listo para FAC. ‍ Relatividad ⚡️ 22:12, 1 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Revisión de imágenes

• Sugiero agregar texto alternativo. Nikkimaria ( discusión ) 04:26 2 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

• Trabajando Lo siento, no tengo experiencia con el texto alternativo. Estoy trabajando en leer sobre cómo agregarlo a una imagen en un cuadro de información. Con suerte, lo descubriré pronto. ‍ Relatividad ⚡️ 02:59, 17 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Matarísvan

Fui revisor en la ACR y puedo respaldar el artículo para la promoción a la clase FA. También hice la revisión de fuentes y las verificaciones puntuales en la ACR, que fueron aprobadas; puedo volver a hacerlas si es necesario. Matarisvan ( discusión ) 19:11 2 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Comentarios

• "continuó volviéndose cada vez más amargo hacia el Ejército Continental cuando lo pasaron por alto para el ascenso, perdió su negocio y fue sometido a un juicio militar" => "continuó volviéndose cada vez más amargo hacia el Ejército Continental cuando lo pasaron por alto para el ascenso, perdió su negocio y fue sometido a un juicio militar"

• Hecho

• Enlace Arnold sobre el primer uso en el cuerpo

• Vinculado en la sección Antecedentes; no estoy seguro si necesito vincularlo en otro lugar

• "El mayor general estadounidense Benedict Arnold contribuyó a ambas batallas de Saratoga". ¿Podemos obtener un poco más de contexto sobre esto? Dudo que casi nadie fuera de los Estados Unidos tenga la menor idea de qué o cuándo fueron las batallas de Saratoga, por lo que debe explicar que esto ocurrió durante la Guerra de la Independencia de los Estados Unidos y posiblemente incluso agregar que se libró entre los estadounidenses y los británicos.

• Añadió "dos batallas cruciales de la Guerra de la Independencia de Estados Unidos que tuvieron lugar cerca de Saratoga, Nueva York ".

• "escritor de varias historias militares sobre la batalla de Saratoga" - ¿en singular? Antes era plural.

• cambiado a "batallas"

• "El único monumento en el Parque Nacional de Saratoga que no dice el nombre de su homenajeado" - como un monumento no puede hablar, sugeriría que "mostrar el nombre" sería mejor

• Hecho

• "La punta del Monumento a la Bota fue robada por unos universitarios que estaban de visita" - ¿Alguna idea de cuándo fue esto? -- ChrisTheDude ( discusión ) 10:01 3 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

• Como dije en el ACR, lamentablemente no. Todas las fuentes que se usaron en esa pequeña sección datan de 1927-1931, pero nunca se menciona una fecha específica. ‍ Relatividad ⚡️ 18:01, 5 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

• En cuanto al último punto, creo que deberías al menos decir que el incidente del "informante misterioso" ocurrió en 1931, porque eso parece indiscutible. Actualmente no hay nada que permita establecer un marco temporal dentro de los más de 130 años de historia del monumento... -- ChrisTheDude ( discusión ) 14:02 9 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

  @ ChrisTheDude : Listo. ¡Gracias por la reseña! ‍ Relatividad ⚡️ 00:45, 15 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

• Soporte -- ChrisTheDude ( discusión ) 07:27 15 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Gog el suave

Rehusarse a revisar.

• "Sin embargo, al final del conflicto, Arnold recibió un disparo en la pierna y en el caballo. Cuando el caballo cayó, la pierna de Arnold se destrozó". Esto no tiene mucho sentido, está escrito casi en viñetas. Hay que desmenuzarlo un poco y expresarlo en prosa completa.
• "Esto contribuyó a la amargura de Arnold... Esto junto con el hecho de que su..." ¿Podríamos evitar dos oraciones consecutivas que comiencen con "Esto"?
• Además, se sugiere reformular el primer párrafo: "Junto con sus heridas de combate, sus problemas comerciales, el hecho de que el Congreso haya promovido a algunos generales rivales y más jóvenes antes que él, y un tribunal militar que resultó en su condena por dos cargos menores de usar su papel como comandante militar de Filadelfia para obtener ganancias, el hecho de que esto se pasara por alto hizo que Arnold desarrollara una amargura creciente hacia la causa revolucionaria". o algo similar.
• "con Sir Henry Clinton finalmente ofreciendo". Presentar a Clinton.
• "y permaneció allí como general hasta que terminó la guerra". ¿Podríamos saber el año en que terminó?

Seguiremos hablando de esto. Gog the Mild ( discusión ) 20:53 16 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Reemplazo de la moneda de cobre británica en la década de 1860

Nominadores: Wehwalt ( discusión ) 17:12, 30 de septiembre de 2024 (UTC)[ responder ]

Este artículo trata sobre... otro aspecto de la historia numismática. Nunca tuve que utilizar las monedas de bronce británicas predecimales, ya que mi primera visita al Reino Unido no fue hasta 1986, y para entonces ya habían desaparecido hacía 15 años. Se consideraban grandes e incómodas, pero una vez fueron incluso más grandes y estaban hechas de cobre puro que se desgastaba fácilmente. Así es como eso cambió Wehwalt ( discusión ) 17:12 30 sep 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Apoyo de la UC

Me conquistaste con "sus nimiedades pedantes" - aparecerá. UndercoverClassicist ^{T · C} 06:47, 1 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

• El cobre se desgastó, se oxidó o se le estampó publicidad : parece, sobre todo en la segunda cláusula, como si se tratara de una característica de las monedas en el momento de su fabricación , en lugar de un defecto que apareciera con el uso a largo plazo. Creo que también ayudaría a aclarar que el cobre es un metal blando, mientras que el bronce no lo es. Mencionaremos la durabilidad un poco más adelante, pero eso no es estrictamente relevante para la estampación, y el punto sería útil aquí.

Añadido.-- Wehwalt ( discusión ) 16:28 2 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

• Más adelante, la cuestión del tamaño parece surgir como un motivo importante, que no se menciona en el prólogo (solo el peso, que no es lo mismo).

El primer párrafo dice: "en una variedad de tamaños".-- Wehwalt ( discusión ) 16:28 2 octubre 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Lo hace, pero no dice que un motivo principal de la reforma fue hacer que las monedas fueran físicamente más pequeñas (en lugar de simplemente más livianas ). Sin embargo, la primera oración del cuerpo del texto menciona esto como el problema principal con las monedas de cobre. UndercoverClassicist ^{T · C} 16:39, 2 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Vale, lo he dejado más claro. -- Wehwalt ( discusión ) 18:32 2 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

• La Comisión Real sobre Moneda Decimal : ¿podríamos dar un paso atrás y explicar quién, cuándo y por qué se tomó la decisión de estudiar la decimalización?

¿Quieres decir que el sistema LSD era inconveniente o la motivación política que llevó al nombramiento de la Comisión Real?-- Wehwalt ( discusión ) 16:51 2 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

¿De dónde viene la Comisión Real sobre Moneda Decimal? ¿Quién decidió crearla, cuándo y por qué? Creo que ya hemos enterrado el tema por el momento. UndercoverClassicist ^{T · C} 16:53, 2 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

No tanto como se podría pensar, ya que las investigaciones sobre la moneda decimal se produjeron repetidamente en el siglo XIX. Pero he añadido un poco. -- Wehwalt ( discusión ) 18:32 2 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

• ¿Debe el debate sobre la inscripción pasar al primer plano?

Bien.-- Wehwalt ( discusión ) 16:51 2 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

• el dos peniques raramente visto : MOS:HYPHEN aconseja raramente visto .

OK.-- Wehwalt ( discusión ) 16:51 2 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

• En el Vector 22, obtengo un MOS:SANDWICH entre la segunda y la tercera imagen, y (ligeramente) entre Victoria y su centavo.

He trasladado a Victoria, lo que espero que solucione el problema. ¿Tienes alguna sugerencia sobre cómo solucionar el otro problema? -- Wehwalt ( discusión ) 16:51 2 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Un poco radical, pero ¿qué tal si ponemos el penique de Boulton donde está ahora el que tiene una acuñación exagerada y juntamos las dos monedas "defectuosas" en una plantilla de doble imagen donde está actualmente el cuarto de penique desgastado? UndercoverClassicist ^{T · C} 16:54, 2 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Cada uno de los conjuntos de imágenes muestra ambas caras de una moneda. ¿Te refieres a un conjunto de cuatro imágenes o a algo más? -- Wehwalt ( discusión ) 18:32 2 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Ah, no me había dado cuenta de que cada una tenía dos imágenes, pero parece que el |perrow=parámetro de la plantilla de imágenes múltiples puede crear una cuadrícula de dos por dos. UndercoverClassicist ^{T · C} 19:50, 2 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Todavía estoy mirando esto.-- Wehwalt ( discusión ) 01:21 3 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

• Aunque no todos lo hicieron, ya que muchos tenían el metal de cobre blando muy desgastado : creo que es necesario analizarlo para aclararlo. Asimismo, la confusión aumentó ligeramente con las monedas acuñadas con otros dos estándares que también se mantuvieron en el comercio . Estaré encantado de sugerir alternativas si fuera de ayuda.

Lo he intentado.-- Wehwalt ( discusión ) 16:51 2 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

• ¡Qué lote tan magullado, desparejado y en mal estado son las monedas de medio penique que valen un chelín ! Vale la pena señalar a pie de página: ¿de cuántas monedas está hablando aquí?

Supongo que sí. Hecho.-- Wehwalt ( discusión ) 16:51 2 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

• Se eligió el bronce por ser más duro que el cobre puro : no estoy seguro de que esto sea del todo gramatical: tal como era , creo.

Quizás sea ENGVAR, ya que la redacción simplemente me suena a economía de palabras. -- Wehwalt ( discusión ) 16:51 2 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

• ¿Conectar Downing Street?

Soy reticente porque no estoy seguro de dónde tuvieron lugar estas charlas junto a la chimenea. Se podría suponer que en el número 11 de Downing Street, la residencia del Canciller, pero eso es sólo una suposición. Y no todos los primeros ministros del siglo XIX vivieron en el número 10, ya que tenían residencias más cómodas en Londres; algunos hicieron que el Canciller viviera en el número 10. Supongo que podría investigar dónde vivía Gladstone en 1860, pero estamos entrando en territorio de investigación original si la idea es hacer una conexión al número 10 de Downing Street o al 11. Y no estoy seguro de lo útil que sería un enlace a la propia calle. Me inclino a decir que la mayoría de las personas que lleguen hasta aquí en este artículo comprenderán la importancia y por qué Graham se sintió elogiado y lo dejarán así. -- Wehwalt ( discusión ) 14:00, 2 octubre 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Creo que un enlace a Downing Street sería bueno: el titular establece que históricamente ha sido el centro de poder del Primer Ministro y el Primer Ministro Principal (de hecho, eso es la gran mayoría de lo que trata el titular ), y tiene El término "Downing Street" también se utiliza como metonimia para el Primer Ministro o el Gobierno británico en general. Estoy de acuerdo en que no necesitamos entrar en detalles sobre qué puerta negra estaba frente a la chimenea en cuestión. Por cierto, si leo bien el artículo homónimo, parece que Gladstone usó 10, 11 y 12, por lo que es un punto discutible de todos modos. UndercoverClassicist ^{T · C} 14:27, 2 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Hecho.-- Wehwalt ( discusión ) 16:51 2 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Próximamente habrá más novedades. UndercoverClassicist ^{T · C} 06:35, 2 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

• Sugiero que se inflen las cantidades de dinero involucradas aquí: hay bastantes que hoy no parecen una gran cantidad, pero lo eran en su momento. UndercoverClassicist ^{T · C} 11:11, 2 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Yo diría que el único lugar en el que añadiría algo es en las sumas a las que hace referencia Gladstone. Las otras sumas son simplemente el valor total de las monedas y el valor actual tiene poca relevancia. Es la misma cantidad de monedas independientemente de la inflación. También dudo de decir con ligereza que las sumas a lo largo de 160 años son equivalentes. -- Wehwalt ( discusión ) 16:51 2 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Esto es cierto, pero creo que también es relevante que las £1.367.963 (como dices, 136.796.300 peniques) producidas durante los primeros tres años valieran alrededor de £17.389.310.308 en dinero de hoy, en otras palabras, una suma bastante grande. Entiendo que la inflación no es una guía perfecta para el valor en la práctica: también se podría contextualizar diciendo que esto era aproximadamente una vez y media el gasto anual del gobierno. En cualquier caso, cuando manejamos números grandes, es útil que los lectores puedan tener algo con lo que relacionarlos. UndercoverClassicist ^{T · C} 17:00, 2 octubre 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

He añadido plantillas de inflación, pero las he mantenido fuera de la descripción del intercambio de monedas de Malta, ya que el valor nominal es lo único relevante, no el valor actual. -- Wehwalt ( discusión ) 18:32, 2 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

• ¿Se decía definitivamente Britanniarum (de los Britanos , como en Gran Bretaña y Bretaña) en lugar de Britannorum (de los Britanos ) en la inscripción completa? Si es así, ¿por qué el plural?

Se llama Britanniarum, más bien Gran Bretaña e Irlanda y, en cierta medida, las colonias. Véase esta moneda. A veces lo deletreaban si había espacio. -- Wehwalt ( discusión ) 14:00 2 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Eso es todo, con algunas solicitudes de aclaración/comentarios. -- Wehwalt ( discusión ) 16:51 2 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Y otra vez.-- Wehwalt ( discusión ) 18:32 2 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

• Esta comisión había sido designada a raíz de la defensa del Maestro de la Casa de la Moneda, el científico Sir John Herschel, que había participado en dos investigaciones anteriores sobre la acuñación decimal, pero que dimitió como maestro en 1856, el año de la designación de la comisión, debido a problemas de salud : ¿es la parte sobre su servicio anterior y su dimisión estrictamente relevante aquí, en lugar de en su biografía?

Esto se agrega en respuesta a sus comentarios anteriores sobre quién es la fuerza detrás de la creación de una comisión de moneda decimal. Si mencionamos a Herschel y poco después mencionamos a otra persona como maestro de la casa de la moneda, es útil explicar por qué fue así. -- Wehwalt ( discusión ) 20:45 2 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

• un voto de £10000 : para mantener la coherencia con otros números grandes de este artículo, utilice separadores de coma. Véase también, más adelante, £32000 .

Bien.-- Wehwalt ( discusión ) 21:18 2 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

• Recordó a los miembros que había un proyecto de ley pendiente ante el Parlamento para ampliar las disposiciones de la ley que se aplicaban a las monedas de cobre : ​​¿podemos describir cuáles eran (al menos las más importantes)? ¿Esto (por ejemplo) las convierte en moneda de curso legal, las protege contra el recorte o la falsificación, etc.?

La fuente menciona falsificación. He consultado el Hansard para esa fecha y eso es lo que dice.

• Gladstone expresó su satisfacción con las monedas modelo que Graham le había enviado : ¿con las monedas modelo?

Supongo.-- Wehwalt ( discusión ) 21:18 2 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

• Ella había aparecido en las monedas de cobre desde el reinado de Carlos II. Sugiero agregar "en el siglo XVII" para ahorrarles un clic a los lectores si no están al tanto de la historia inglesa.

DE ACUERDO.

• sería reconocer que Gran Bretaña ya no dominaba los mares : creo que esto necesita al menos un enlace wiki a Rule Britannia : será completamente opaco para los lectores que no conocen la canción.

Linecar, aparte de una frase, no da ninguna indicación de que se esté refiriendo a la canción. -- Wehwalt ( discusión ) 22:21 2 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Sí, pero es la frase más famosa de esa canción, y solo se encuentra en la canción. Es un poco como si alguien dijera "¡Hágase la luz!" o "Benditos sean los queseros"; no necesitan decirnos que están citando la Biblia. Honestamente, me sorprende que "Britannia rules the waves" no sea una redirección a la canción de todos modos. UndercoverClassicist ^{T · C} 06:10, 3 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Un pequeño apunte: para mí, sólo reconoces algo que es verdad ("reconoció que había bebido el té, pero negó haber comido las galletas"). Dado que el final del siglo XIX fue el punto álgido del poder imperial británico, no creo que podamos afirmar realmente que "Britannia ya no gobernaba las olas" es una afirmación verdadera: o bien nunca lo hizo, en cuyo caso es falso según sus concepciones, o bien lo siguió haciendo, en cuyo caso es falso. ¿Sugieres "implicaría que Gran Bretaña..."? UndercoverClassicist ^{T · C} 06:42, 4 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

He cambiado a "significar".-- Wehwalt ( discusión ) 13:06 4 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

• El texto en la cita debe estar en formato em, en lugar de simplemente en cursiva, para beneficio de los lectores de pantalla.

OK.-- Wehwalt ( discusión ) 21:18 2 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

• Sugiero aclarar que Osborne House era el lugar de retiro de verano de Victoria y Alberto.

Lo he mencionado de pasada.

• El 20 de febrero de 1860 se formuló una pregunta en la Cámara de los Comunes : ¿alguna idea de quién la formuló?

Fue William Ewart (político británico) . No estoy seguro de que sea necesario mencionarlo, aunque si lo considera necesario, agregaré un enlace al Hansard. -- Wehwalt ( discusión ) 21:18 2 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

En términos generales, prefiero la voz activa a la pasiva, y dar información en lugar de guardarla: creo que agregar el nombre sería una mejora con pocos costos, pero no es decisivo para el artículo. UndercoverClassicist ^{T · C} 20:43, 3 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Muy bien, lo he reformulado como sugieres. -- Wehwalt ( discusión ) 21:43 3 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

• Wyon fue a la Royal Mint (Casa de Moneda Real) para mostrarle a Graham dos monedas modelo para el penique : el segundo enlace sobre este término dentro de esta sección: ¿es intencional?

Corte.-- Wehwalt ( discusión ) 21:18 2 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

• Probablemente se le dio uno a la Reina : cabezas más augustas que la mía dirían que esto es americanismo y probablemente lo promoverían . Les ahorraré la molestia.

Cambiado.-- Wehwalt ( discusión ) 21:18 2 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

• Wyon fue al palacio de Buckingham, donde tanto la reina como el príncipe Alberto criticaron la obra. Regresó el 30 de marzo; Alberto no estaba allí, pero Victoria tenía algunas críticas . ¿Es de suponer que regresó con otra oportunidad de hacer el trabajo?

Sí, creo que no hace falta decirlo. -- Wehwalt ( discusión ) 21:18 2 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

No estoy seguro de que así sea: es una inferencia sensata , pero no es la única lectura posible de lo que está escrito. Por ejemplo, podría haber ido el lunes con una moneda, haber recibido muchas críticas, luego haber vuelto el miércoles a otra reunión/visita social y haber recibido más críticas sobre el mismo trabajo, o haber descubierto que Victoria había cambiado de opinión y ahora sólo lo odiaba un poco. Incluso entonces, ¿por qué hacer que el lector se esfuerce más de lo necesario? Me viene a la mente el dicho tan repetido de que un buen texto debe ser como el agua en una pecera. UndercoverClassicist ^{T · C} 22:06, 2 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

• Debería haber dejado en claro que ya había modificado el texto para satisfacer su objeción. -- Wehwalt ( discusión ) 01:21 3 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

• Según el erudito numismático Howard Linecar, se sintió : la forma en que manejamos a Linecar hace que parezca como si estuviera allí en ese momento: vea particularmente más adelante Según algunos relatos, el ejemplo que la Reina aprobó fue robado cuando se envió a la Royal Mint, aunque Linecar se mostró escéptico ante esta historia . Me sorprendió pasar el mouse y encontrar que la fuente era de la década de 1970 en lugar de la década de 1870.

He cortado su opinión.

• Tu tren, pero no veo que esa fuera la mejor solución en este caso: simplemente reformular el tiempo habría parecido una solución "fácil". Incluso algo como "Linecar ha escrito que esta historia es probablemente falsa" habría resuelto el segundo problema. UndercoverClassicist ^{T · C} 22:40, 2 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

• Lo entiendo, pero el pasaje es más vago de lo que recuerdo, así que creo que es mejor omitirlo.

• Se le había ordenado a Wyon que hiciera que la inscripción que figuraba en el anverso de las monedas dijera : debemos eliminar el segundo ( "se le ordenó que hiciera que se leyera la inscripción..."). Tal vez valga la pena rehacer la oración para que el verbo principal no tenga que esperar a que termine la cláusula subordinada.

Reelaborado.-- Wehwalt ( discusión ) 22:12 2 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

• "Victoria, por la gracia de Dios, Reina de los Británicos, defensora de la fe" : WP:' recomienda comillas simples (o, mejor, la plantilla de glosas) para las glosas. ¿Por qué se escribe Reina con mayúscula pero nada más, especialmente "Defensor"? Sugiero vincular Defensor de la fe .
• Muy menor, pero el latín realmente debería incluirse en las plantillas de idioma para beneficio de los lectores de pantalla y el software Wiki (use |italic=no).
• El nuevo florín había omitido DG (Dei Gratia, por la gracia de Dios) y FD (defensor de la fe): aquí hemos perdido las elegantes versalitas.

En los tres anteriores, veamos si lo que tengo ahora es satisfactorio.

• Observando que la abreviatura de un sustantivo plural en latín debería tener su consonante final duplicada : tal vez no debería en el sentido de una verdad moral, sino tal vez algo como "se indicaba convencionalmente duplicando su letra final, si era una consonante". Estrictamente, por lo que hemos dicho aquí, la abreviatura de Bachelor of Arts debería ser BBA.

Personalmente no entiendo por qué BRITANNIAR no debería ser BRITANNIARR según la lógica, pero miré la fuente y dice "requerido" y aparentemente Gladstone había estado esperando esto durante un año, así que me inclino a decir que "debería" es justo.

• Creo que Edward Hawkins debería ser Edward Hawkins (numismático) y no Edward Hawkins . Este último nunca trabajó en el BM y no tenía nada que ver con monedas, aunque sin duda sabía latín.

Está bien. Buen hallazgo. -- Wehwalt ( discusión ) 22:12 2 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

• Wyon trabajó en la fabricación de troqueles para acuñación de monedas : sugiera un enlace wiki para "troqueles": ¿no es una palabra común?

Bien.00 Wehwalt ( discusión ) 01:21 3 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

• El resultado fue el centavo "Bun" : ¿alguna razón para no incluir este párrafo de una sola línea en el anterior?

DE ACUERDO.

• no se habían hecho actuales mediante proclamación : creo que necesitamos un enlace o una explicación sobre "proclamación" para aclarar lo que esto significa.

DE ACUERDO.

• El penique pesaba 9,45 g y tenía un diámetro de 30,81 mm, el medio penique 5,66 g y 25,47 mm y el cuarto de penique 2,83 g y 20,16 mm . ¿No hay conversiones para las unidades? Tal vez sea mejor ponerlas todas en una sola nota al pie.

Creo que, dado que mencionamos anteriormente el peso del penique de 1797, puede ser útil mencionar las piezas de bronce en el texto principal. -- Wehwalt ( discusión ) 22:12 2 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Ah, sí, me refería a las conversiones imperiales (es decir, no pongas un corchete después de cada una de las unidades métricas: simplemente escribe una nota al pie como 'es decir, [tantas] onzas de peso y [tantas] pulgadas de diámetro...')

UndercoverClassicist ^{T · C} 22:38 2 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Trabajaré en esto el jueves.-- Wehwalt ( discusión ) 01:21 3 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

• Newspapers.com da el título del periódico de Essex como The Essex County Standard .

Fijado.

• conduciría a una gran comodidad pública. : sugiero una reformulación, ya que "conveniencia pública" es la expresión inglesa BrE para "baño".

Reformulado.-- Wehwalt ( discusión ) 01:21 3 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

• La producción a gran escala de monedas de bronce era nueva para la Royal Mint : esto parece contradecir la afirmación, más arriba, de que la Royal Mint tenía al menos alguna experiencia con ello, habiendo acuñado recientemente monedas de bronce para Nueva Escocia y para la provincia de Canadá. Quizás podría solucionarse aclarando la escala de estos últimos proyectos.

Es cierto. En referencia a Peck, el problema parece ser que la Casa de la Moneda Real tuvo que trabajar más rápido, en masa , con las monedas británicas , como dice Peck. Aclarado. -- Wehwalt ( discusión ) 01:21 3 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

• 1.720 toneladas : sugiere también una conversión imperial.

Necesito mirar las fuentes y ver qué se quiere decir. -- Wehwalt ( discusión ) 01:21 3 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

• La documentación de la plantilla recomienda no indicar la ubicación de un editor cuando está en el nombre (por lo que los libros de CUP publicados en Cambridge no deberían usar |location=).
• Se concedió una prórroga a las colonias, ya que en algunas de ellas no se habían tomado medidas para llamar a los antiguos policías. Originalmente, la fecha de desmonetización debía ser el 30 de junio de 1876, pero se extendió hasta el 31 de diciembre de 1877 : otro párrafo breve que parece pertenecer naturalmente al anterior.

Hecho.-- Wehwalt ( discusión ) 01:21 3 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

• Compruebe el guión en el título de Dyer 1982.

Creo que lo he solucionado, pero tengo problemas para distinguir esas cosas a simple vista, así que si es el guión incorrecto, simplemente muéstrame cuál es el correcto y lo cambiaré.

Hay algunas cosas que no están hechas, las imágenes y las toneladas y la plantilla de conversión, las terminaré el jueves. Gracias por la reseña. -- Wehwalt ( discusión ) 01:21 3 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Eso es todo por el primer intento: volvamos a ti.

He terminado los últimos tres y también el Rule Britannia. Creo que eso es todo. -- Wehwalt ( discusión ) 13:01 3 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Apoyo después de algunas correcciones menores: muy buen trabajo. UndercoverClassicist ^{T · C} 14:14, 4 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Revisión de la fuente

Estoy trabajando en ello. Dugan Murphy ( discusión ) 00:14 2 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Aquí hay algunos comentarios para comenzar:

• Craig: Para que a los lectores les resulte más fácil encontrar el libro, creo que vale la pena explicar el título: The Mint: A History of the London Mint from AD 287 to 1948 (La Casa de la Moneda: Una historia de la Casa de la Moneda de Londres desde el año 287 d. C. hasta 1948) .
• Wikilink Revista Numismática Británica ?
• Dyer 1982: Escriba el título con mayúscula según MOS:TITLECAPS y reemplace el guion con un guión corto según MOS:RANGE
• Dyer 1982: El artículo parece comenzar en la página 234, no en la 232.
• Dyer y Gaspar 1992: Creo que vale la pena utilizar el título completo del capítulo: "La reforma, la nueva tecnología y Tower Hill, 1700-1966".
• Fremantle 1877: El enlace lleva a una búsqueda de texto de "Malta". Este enlace a la página del título parece más apropiado.
• Lo mismo para Fremantle 1878 (una búsqueda de "cobre"): este enlace parece mejor.
• Lo mismo para Fremantle 1879 (otra búsqueda de "cobre"): recomiendo este enlace.

Seguiré trabajando en ello. Dugan Murphy ( discusión ) 01:01 2 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Gracias, todo está hecho hasta la fecha.-- Wehwalt ( discusión ) 20:43 2 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Veo que has respondido a mis comentarios anteriores. Aquí tienes más:

• Fremantle 1877: El año de publicación parece haber desaparecido.
• Spink & Son: En la lista de la biblioteca que veo para este libro aparece Emma Howard como editora. En tu lista aparece Spink como autor. ¿No debería estar incluido el nombre del editor y aparecer debajo de ese nombre?
• No es un comentario de revisión de fuente: la cita del Chamber's Journal es lo suficientemente larga y debería ser una cita en bloque, según MOS:BLOCKQUOTE .
• El artículo del Hansard pone el nombre en cursiva, pero la cita no. Tal vez debería aparecer como título y no como editor.
• En la Colonia del Cabo, en Sudáfrica, o en Nueva Zelanda, se hizo poco para llamar a la policía. Me parece un poco demasiado interpretativo como para que lo respalde una fuente primaria como Fremantle 1879, según WP:PRIMARY . Cuando hice clic en el enlace a ese informe y fui a la página 10, no pude encontrar ninguna mención a la Colonia del Cabo, Sudáfrica o Nueva Zelanda. ¿La cita es incorrecta o me estoy perdiendo algo?

Debería haber leído 1878 en lugar de 1879. Está arreglado. Los informes de Fremantle se consideran autorizados en su campo, hay una discusión al respecto en nuestro artículo sobre él que escribí. Él estaría en posición de saber estas cosas. -- Wehwalt ( discusión ) 13:16 3 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Me lo creo. Veo que la página 10 de Fremantle 1878 respalda la oración. Dugan Murphy ( discusión ) 13:25 3 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Resumen: Todos los libros están en manos de bibliotecas académicas, con la excepción de los informes de Fremantle, que como fuentes primarias se están utilizando de manera adecuada según WP:PRIMARY , con la única posible excepción planteada en mi comentario anterior. Algunos de los artículos son del British Numismatic Journal , que parece tener buena reputación. Los demás artículos son de publicaciones periódicas primarias que creo que se están utilizando de manera adecuada. Para un artículo bastante corto, la lista de fuentes parece representar una amplitud decente de conocimientos, complementada con un uso justo de fuentes primarias. El estilo de cita parece consistente. Dugan Murphy ( discusión ) 02:22, 3 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Gracias. He hecho un comentario y he terminado el resto. Wehwalt ( discusión ) 14:43 3 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Veo que has añadido a Emma Howard como editora, pero has mantenido a Spink & Son como autor de Coins of England . Worldcat incluye a Spink solo como editor y no incluye a ningún autor, sino que lo archiva bajo el nombre de Howard como editor. ¿Crees que es más apropiado mantener a Spink como autor y archivarlo en la lista de esa manera? Dugan Murphy ( discusión ) 17:32 3 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Se trata de una serie, ahora anual, que comenzó en 1929 y ha tenido varios editores a lo largo de los años (tengo una copia de la edición de 2004, editada por Philip Skingley). El único nombre que aparece en la portada es el de Spink, ya que es el único nombre que aparece en la página del título. El nombre de Howard aparece solo una vez, en una nota en la página vi. Ni en la edición de 2023 ni en la de 2004 aparece el nombre del editor en la portada ni se menciona de forma destacada. Creo que es mejor que el lector se quede con Spink como autor. Wehwalt ( discusión ) 20:25 3 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Suena razonable. Considero que esta revisión de la fuente es un aprobado . Te invito a que eches un vistazo a mi nominación actual de FAC , que aún necesita revisiones. Gracias de antemano si puedes dejar comentarios. Dugan Murphy ( discusión ) 02:13 4 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Revisión de imágenes

• A algunas imágenes les falta el texto alternativo

• El archivo:Queen_Victoria_by_JJE_Mayall,_1860.png necesita una etiqueta de EE. UU. Nikkimaria ( discusión ) 04:25 2 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Se agregó texto alternativo y se intercambió la imagen. Gracias. Wehwalt ( discusión ) 19:56 4 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Apoyo de Tim Riley

En cuanto a las observaciones introductorias de Wehwalt, que aparecen arriba (no las discuto), no obstante, el sonido satisfactorio del ruido metálico de los grandes peniques de cobre en los teléfonos de la GPO en las cabinas telefónicas sigue conmigo sesenta años después (y todavía pienso en 50p como diez chelines). Sea como fuere, leí casi hasta el final del artículo antes de encontrar algo que objetar, por más que lo intenté (y Dios sabe que lo hice). Pero en el párrafo que comienza con "La Real Casa de la Moneda ofreció una prima del 2 por ciento..." tengo tres puntos menores. Primero, en inglés británico es habitual traducir "por ciento" como dos palabras; segundo, no veo por qué el subdirector de la Casa de la Moneda debería verse privado de la capitalización que obtiene su superior, el director; y tercero, "esto se hizo efectivo el 31 de julio" no es un término británico familiar: "esto se hizo con efecto a partir de..." sería el término británico normal. No es nada revolucionario y no tengo ninguna duda en apoyar la elevación de este artículo, que leí con gran placer y del que aprendí mucho. De primera categoría, incluso para los magníficos estándares de Wehwalt. Tim riley talk 22:10, 5 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Listo, muchas gracias por los comentarios.-- Wehwalt ( discusión ) 22:56 5 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Comentarios de Mike Christie

Apoyo , con algunos comentarios muy menores:

• Tal vez vincular "desmonetizado" a Moneda de curso legal#Desmonetización .

Hecho.-- Wehwalt ( discusión ) 01:43 11 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

• "aunque no todos lo hicieron, ya que muchos se aligeraron al desgastarse mucho el metal de cobre blando": sugiere "aunque muchos se habían aligerado ya que el metal de cobre blando a menudo se desgastaba mucho" - para evitar equivocarse al leer esto como que había dos tipos de esta moneda.

Hecho pero expresado de forma ligeramente diferente. -- Wehwalt ( discusión ) 01:43 11 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

• Las deformaciones publicitarias son un dato interesante. ¿Existe alguna posibilidad de que haya una imagen de una de ellas?

La moneda que aparece al final de la sección de fondo es la mejor que tengo disponible. Tengo acceso a las imágenes de Heritage Auctions, pero no parece que hayan vendido una muy buena. -- Wehwalt ( discusión ) 01:43 11 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

• "Para correlacionar los sistemas métrico e imperial, 10 peniques, 12 medios peniques o 15 cuartos de penique colocados uno al lado del otro medían 1 pie (0,30 m)". No estoy seguro de lo que me está diciendo esta oración. ¿Es solo una reformulación de sus longitudes, presentadas de una manera diferente? Si es así, no estoy seguro de que la necesitemos.

La Real Casa de la Moneda eligió diámetros de modo que una determinada cantidad de monedas colocadas una al lado de la otra equivalieran a un pie. Supongo que las reglas eran menos comunes que hoy en día. -- Wehwalt ( discusión ) 01:43 11 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

• "tal como se reproduce en el Essex County Standard": ¿es necesario que esta advertencia aparezca en el cuerpo del texto? Se indica en la forma de la cita.

- Mike Christie ( charla - contribuciones - biblioteca ) 15:08, 7 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ respuesta ]

Eso es todo. Gracias por tu reseña. -- Wehwalt ( discusión ) 01:43 11 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

mujinga

Al comentar esta versión, encuentro algunos problemas de integridad del texto/fuente:

• 1 texto: El 4 de agosto de 1859, Gladstone, como Ministro de Hacienda, obtuvo una votación de £10.000 (equivalentes a £1.265.000 en 2023) para ser utilizadas en sustitución de la moneda de cobre.
• Fuente Dyer & Gaspar 1984, p. 263.: no fue hasta el 4 de agosto de 1859 que Gladstone, como ministro de Hacienda, obtuvo del Parlamento un voto de £10.000 para reemplazar el cobre antiguo con nuevas monedas de bronce.
• Eso está demasiado cerca para mí, "obtenido" realmente sobresale.

Intenté cambiar eso, pero la razón por la que me quedé con el texto es que "obtenido" podría ser un lenguaje parlamentario técnico.

• 2 texto: Literary Digest esperaba algo que fuera un orgullo para el país y que mostrara a la Reina, ya abuela, como "más matrona"; The Mechanics' Magazine también quería que las nuevas monedas "dijeran la verdad".[11]
• Fuente Dyer & Gaspar 1984, p. 263: La Literary Gazette esperaba "algo realmente digno de elogio para el país" y en particular que la reina, una abuela de mediana edad, fuera representada con un "aspecto algo más maternal".7 Una opinión similar fue expresada en la Mechanics' Magazine, que también quería que el retrato de la reina "dijera la verdad".
• De nuevo demasiado cerca, también Literary Gazette no Digest y no está del todo claro cómo las nuevas monedas dirían la verdad en la wikiversión

He jugado un poco con el lenguaje, pero repito, los posibles sinónimos son escasos. Creo que está bastante claro que querían que las nuevas monedas mostraran a la Reina como una mujer de más de cuarenta años, como era, en lugar de la mujer que había sido en 1839. He retocado el lenguaje. Lo siento por el Digest/Gazette. -- Wehwalt ( discusión ) 22:13 15 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

• 3 bloque de texto cita: ¡Qué lote magullado, desparejado y en malas condiciones son las monedas de medio penique que valen un chelín [24 piezas]: grandes y pequeñas, gruesas y delgadas, viejas y nuevas, perforadas, abolladas y marcadas por malos tratos gratuitos, desfiguradas por los propietarios de periódicos publicitarios y esa numerosa pero repugnante clase de personas que persisten en colocar nombres vulgares o iniciales donde menos se los desea.
• fuente "Nuestras monedas de cobre". Chamber's Journal. 29 de diciembre de 1860. pág. 6. Consultado el 16 de junio de 2024, a través de The Huddersfield Chronicle y West Yorkshire Advertiser and Newspapers.com: ¡Qué lote magullado, MALCRIADO, mal emparejado y en mal estado son las monedas de medio penique que valen un chelín: grandes y pequeñas, gruesas y delgadas, viejas y nuevas, perforadas con agujeros, abolladas y marcadas por malos tratos, desfiguradas por los propietarios de periódicos publicitarios, O esa clase repugnante de personas que persisten en colocar nombres vulgares o iniciales donde menos se los desea.

• Diferencias capitalizadas

Arreglado, lamentablemente tuve que copiar esto manualmente y obviamente cometí un error o dos . Wehwalt ( discusión )

• 4 texto: El 16 de julio, Gladstone fue interrogado en la Cámara de los Comunes sobre los retrasos; atribuyó los problemas a "un misterioso secreto del arte".
• Fuente: Aun así, las dificultades continuaron y en respuesta a otra pregunta en el parlamento el 16 de julio, Gladstone atribuyó con gran pompa el retraso a "un misterioso secreto del arte".
• No es particularmente malo, pero "atribuido" podría cambiarse.

Cambiado.-- Wehwalt ( discusión ) 22:13 15 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

• 5 texto: Hubo una reacción considerable, gran parte de ella centrada en el uso de BRITT. Hubo rumores de que se trataba de un error y que pronto se retirarían las monedas. BRITT había aparecido en las monedas de seis peniques y chelines de 1817, pero BRIT en la emisión actual de florines
• fuente Dyer & Gaspar 1984, pp. 269–270: 269: Hubo los inevitables rumores, desmentidos en The Times, de que las monedas iban a ser retiradas del mercado, y en particular la controversia fue provocada por la doble T de BRITT. 270: Fue una controversia que habría interesado a Sainthill, quien mucho tiempo atrás había escrito en contra del uso de BRITT en las monedas de seis peniques y chelines de 1816.
• 1816 no 1817

Corregido.-- Wehwalt ( discusión ) 22:46 15 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

• 6 texto: La revista Mechanics' Magazine consideró que Wyon había capturado adecuadamente los rasgos de la reina, pero había algo inexacto en la forma de su cabeza. No le gustó la representación de Britannia, aunque afirmó que Wyon había hecho lo mejor que pudo. Aparte de estas críticas, consideró que las nuevas monedas fueron un éxito total.
• Fuente: Dyer & Gaspar 1984, p. 270: La Britannia, como era de esperar, no era del agrado de la revista, que sólo podía decir que el artista había hecho lo mejor que podía con ella. «En todos los demás sentidos, excepto el artístico», sin embargo, «las nuevas piezas de bronce pueden considerarse un éxito total».
• Está respaldado por Dyer & Gaspar 1984 pero en la pág. 269 y la frase "éxito completo" es una cita directa.

Los he cambiado.

En total, realicé 9 comprobaciones, tres estaban bien y seis no. Es una cantidad preocupante de errores y me pregunto si encontraré más si continúo. Me detendré aquí y me opondré por ahora Mujinga ( discusión ) 20:23, 15 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Gracias. Verificaré todas las fuentes y me pondré en contacto contigo cuando tenga alguna respuesta. Wehwalt ( discusión ) 21:04 15 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Tangara de garganta cereza

Nominadores: Jens Lallensack ( discusión ) 19:19, 28 de septiembre de 2024 (UTC)[ responder ]

Una de las aves más amenazadas del mundo, de la que actualmente solo se conocen 20 ejemplares. Pude obtener permiso para utilizar tres fotografías; anteriormente no teníamos ni una sola. El artículo acaba de pasar una revisión detallada de GA (gracias a User:Esculenta), y ahora creo que está listo. Jens Lallensack ( discusión ) 19:19 28 sep 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Revisión de imágenes

• Sugerir agregar texto alternativo

Agregado.

• El archivo:Nemosia_rourei_1872,_colour_balanced.jpg necesita una etiqueta de EE. UU. Nikkimaria ( discusión ) 04:51 29 sep 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Agregado, gracias -- Jens Lallensack ( discusión ) 18:48 29 sep 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

alta frecuencia

Lo analizaré durante la próxima semana. _Charla sobre la granja de cerdos 23:54, 29 de septiembre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

• ¿Existe algún tipo de vínculo que se pueda proporcionar para la nuca? Parece que esto se refiere a una parte específica del ave. Busqué en el Glosario de términos sobre aves , pero no hay ninguna entrada para la nuca.

Acabo de agregar la entrada correspondiente al glosario, pero también expliqué el término directamente en el texto. -- Jens Lallensack ( discusión ) 11:53 3 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

• ¿Qué es Mata de Caetas? ¿Es un bosque, un asentamiento, etc.?

Mata significa bosque en portugués. Agregué una traducción, tanto al pie de la primera imagen como a la primera mención en el texto. -- Jens Lallensack ( discusión ) 11:53 3 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Desde la perspectiva de un no experto, esto parece estar en buenas condiciones; apoyo . Hog Farm _Talk 03:16, 3 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

¡Muchas gracias! -- Jens Lallensack ( discusión ) 11:53 3 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Universidad de California

Reservando un lugar. UndercoverClassicist ^{T · C} 08:23, 30 de septiembre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Soporte : esa es la última de mis inquietudes resueltas. Excelente artículo: elegante, claramente bien investigado y sumamente legible. UndercoverClassicist ^{T · C} 05:59, 8 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Me cuesta encontrar motivos para quejarme; admito que no soy ornitólogo, pero este parece un artículo claro, autorizado y pulido.

Genial, muchas gracias por la reseña. Abordé todo lo mejor que pude:

• La tangara garganta cereza pertenece a la familia Thraupidae y se cree que está más estrechamente relacionada con el único otro miembro de su género, la tangara encapuchada, aunque esto aún debe confirmarse mediante análisis genético. : considere dividir esta larga oración después de Thraupidae .

Hecho.

• La tangara de garganta cereza es un ave distintiva : ¿qué significa distintivo aquí? ¿No son la mayoría de las aves distintivas (al menos para los amantes de las aves) en el sentido de que tienen rasgos característicos que se pueden reconocer fácilmente?

Agregué "visualmente distintivo", si eso ayuda. La mayoría de las aves son menos fáciles de identificar que esta, y algunas tienen un plumaje totalmente anodino y solo se las puede identificar por el sonido.

• Sí, creo que funciona. UndercoverClassicist ^{T · C} 21:35, 1 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

• Las partes inferiores son blancas, contrastando brillantemente con la mancha roja. : brillantemente me parece un término estético más que descriptivo: ¿ fuertemente ?

Sí, eso está mejor, cambiado.

• tarso ("pierna" inferior) : ¿por qué las comillas aquí?

Porque sólo parece la parte inferior de la pierna, pero en realidad es parte del pie (el muslo superior en las aves normalmente no es visible, tiene una orientación horizontal y está oculto en el plumaje debajo del vientre).

• Sería bueno encontrar otra solución que las comillas: ¿quizás una nota a pie de página, si no otra cosa? Eso sí, muchas fuentes parecen describirlo como parte de la pierna (la parte del cuerpo del mismo nombre en los humanos es el tobillo, que puede considerarse parte de cualquiera de las dos). UndercoverClassicist ^{T · C} 21:35, 1 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Opté por "la parte más baja y sin plumas de la pierna". -- Jens Lallensack ( discusión ) 22:21 1 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

• Aclaramos que la Mata Atlántica está en Brasil en la primera mención del encabezamiento, pero no en el cuerpo.

El Bosque Atlántico no se limita a Brasil, solo decimos que la tangara está restringida al Bosque Atlántico de Brasil. ¿Crees que deberíamos agregar más información sobre la extensión del bosque?

Creo que eso ayudaría, y podría considerar reformular la introducción a algo como "áreas brasileñas del Bosque Atlántico": "el Bosque Atlántico de Brasil" se lee como si el bosque en sí fuera de Brasil o de alguna manera perteneciera a Brasil (cf. "el Océano Pacífico de China", "los Alpes de Francia", "el Danubio de Hungría" - ninguna de esas me suena del todo correcta). UndercoverClassicist ^{T · C} 21:35, 1 octubre 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Ok, lo agregué y escribí "la Mata Atlántica de Brasil" en lugar de "de Brasil". -- Jens Lallensack ( discusión ) 22:21 1 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

• Bosque montano ombrófilo denso, un tipo de bosque atlántico : no creo que las segundas mayúsculas sean correctas aquí: algo no puede ser un tipo de nombre propio ("un tipo de océano Atlántico", "un tipo de Berwick-upon-Tweed"). ¿Quizás "Bosque montano ombrófilo denso, caracterizado por árboles altos con abundantes epífitas, que se encuentra en [ciertas áreas de?] el bosque atlántico"?

Bien, hecho.

• la ecología de las especies : MOS:' (creo) aconseja "la ecología de las especies" en este escenario.

Corregido, junto con otro caso similar.

• Mientras que Nova Friburgo pertenece a una cadena montañosa diferente : parte de ...

Por supuesto que sí.

• Se ha observado con frecuencia que uno de los miembros del rebaño se sentaba más arriba y hacía más ruido que los demás, por razones poco claras : ¿por qué el tiempo pasado aquí? ¿"Ha sido"?

Cambió.

• Los parásitos son desconocidos : ¿significa esto "nunca los encontramos con parásitos" ("el comportamiento antisocial es desconocido en Singapur") o "no sabemos qué parásitos tienen"?

Esto último. Espero haberlo dejado más claro ahora.

• Se han encontrado tres nidos más hasta 2020 : ¿se han encontrado hasta 2020 ?

Sí, arreglado.

• Boceto de Brettas : MOS: prefiere el boceto de Brettas .

Cambió.

• Un estudio de 2005 consideró que esta estimación relativamente optimista era "prematura". MOS:QUOTEPOV aconsejaría eliminar las comillas aquí.

Abandonó.

• La extracción de palmito (Euterpe edulis) provoca una degradación adicional de los bosques. La especie es especialmente susceptible : como acabamos de introducir una nueva especie, aclaramos que volvemos a las aves.

Hecho.

• Programa de conservación del tángara garganta cereza : ¿no hay capital para el tángara garganta cereza ?

MOS:TITLE tiene lo siguiente: "Siga el uso mayoritario en fuentes independientes y confiables para cualquier tema determinado (por ejemplo, The Out-of-Towners pero The History of Middle-earth). Si ninguna ortografía es claramente dominante en las fuentes, se usa por defecto minúscula después de un guion [...]". La ortografía utilizada en el artículo es la que utiliza el proyecto.

• Supongo que ellos tienen el voto decisivo, en una votación de uno solo. UndercoverClassicist ^{T · C} 21:35, 1 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Una búsqueda en Google arroja tres páginas de resultados, pero ninguno de ellos tiene la palabra "throated" en mayúscula. -- Jens Lallensack ( discusión ) 21:38 1 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

• Se ha probado si se podría alimentar a los pájaros con comida adicional : no entiendo muy bien qué estamos imaginando aquí. ¿Por qué no sería posible alimentar a los pájaros?

Existen muchos riesgos que podrían hacer que tal esfuerzo sea contraproducente. Lo reformulé: y se ha probado la alimentación complementaria con gusanos de la harina.

• y en 2021, el equipo publicó un plan de acción para la conservación de la especie : Creo que esto quedaría más claro si en 2021 nos moviéramos hasta el final y elimináramos la coma.

Hecho.

• Existen propuestas para desarrollar el ecoturismo en torno a la tángara, lo que podría beneficiar potencialmente a las comunidades locales. : y, en base a lo que dijimos anteriormente, ¿correr el riesgo de exterminarla? La secuencia en este caso podría requerir una nueva revisión.

Reformulé: "El turismo dirigido a las especies puede ser problemático si se utilizan excesivamente grabaciones de sonido para atraer a las aves". Esto debería dejar en claro que el ecoturismo puede funcionar sin la reproducción de grabaciones de sonido y no es necesariamente problemático por esta razón.

• y fomentar el orgullo de las comunidades locales por su patrimonio natural : esto no es del todo idiomático: ¿ infundir orgullo en las comunidades locales por... ? Pero entonces me parece un poco confuso: sería más feliz si pudiéramos demostrar algún resultado concreto en esta dirección.

Intenté decir "y fomentar el orgullo dentro de las comunidades locales por su patrimonio natural", con la esperanza de que sea mejor. -- Jens Lallensack ( discusión ) 21:16 1 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

• No creo que realmente sientas orgullo por algo (a menos que quizás nos refiramos a sentir orgullo indirectamente cuando otra persona ha logrado algo: 'su madre estaba orgullosa por ella cuando aprobó el examen'), pero sí sientes orgullo por ello o acerca de ello. UndercoverClassicist ^{T · C} 21:28, 1 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Vale, volví a decir "en". O tal vez "y para alentar a las comunidades locales a enorgullecerse de su patrimonio natural", ¿si así queda mejor? -- Jens Lallensack ( discusión ) 21:36 1 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Eso funciona, pero nuevamente tengo algunas dudas de que no tenga mucho sentido: se lee como algo que se escucharía en una presentación de las personas que llevan adelante una iniciativa de este tipo. ¿Cómo se ve, en concreto? UndercoverClassicist ^{T · C} 21:40, 1 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

No me interesa eliminar la parte sobre las especies emblemáticas , ya que creo que se trata de una información crucial. La frase en cuestión describe con precisión lo que se supone que debe hacer una especie emblemática: una especie con la que la gente pueda identificarse, de modo que se preocupe por la conservación. Sin el apoyo de la población local, la conservación a largo plazo no puede funcionar, es una parte integral, por lo que creo que tenemos que mencionarla. En su boletín se puede ver cómo se ve concretamente esa difusión (por ejemplo, [1]). -- Jens Lallensack ( discusión ) 22:34 1 octubre 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Como estabas pidiendo algo concreto, el descubrimiento de poblaciones de un bagre en peligro crítico de extinción es un resultado directo del programa de especies emblemáticas de la tangara, como se analiza aquí [2]. El bagre se menciona brevemente, pero podría hacer una oración aparte, si crees que es necesario para aclarar el punto. -- Jens Lallensack ( discusión ) 23:21 1 octubre 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Oh, no, no tengo ningún problema con la idea de la especie emblemática; mi problema es la afirmación de que está "alentando" a las comunidades locales a enorgullecerse de las cosas naturales que las rodean. El médico puede alentarme a hacer más ejercicio y comer menos, pero eso no significa necesariamente que lo haga , o que el estímulo haga alguna diferencia en algo que nos importe a ambos. Si hay un buen vínculo que se pueda establecer que diga "la gente dijo que se sintió inspirada por su orgullo por la tangara de garganta cereza para ir a buscar otras especies en peligro de extinción, y terminó encontrando un bagre en peligro de extinción", eso resolvería el problema de manera agradable. De manera similar, si ha habido una campaña mediática que costó X mil dólares para promover la imagen del ave, eso también sería algo bueno en lo que basar la afirmación. Este es un caso en el que no estoy seguro de que las fuentes de WP:ABOUTSELF sean excelentes, porque necesitamos alguna medida externa de si el estímulo a) existe de manera significativa y b) es realmente lo suficientemente importante como para hacer que WP:DUEWEIGHT sea importante . UndercoverClassicist ^{T · C} 06:24 2 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

He reescrito completamente esa parte, por favor vean si está mejor. -- Jens Lallensack ( discusión ) 08:41 2 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Generalísima

Debería intentar hacer una revisión de fuentes para un artículo biológico, para variar. Las fuentes aquí parecen de alta calidad para el tema; casi todo se cita a publicaciones académicas, ya sean informes o revistas. Revisé los dos de Saíra News que me hicieron reflexionar; es un boletín del instituto de investigación, que encaja perfectamente con una declaración ABOUTSELF sobre esa adquisición de tierras y la noticia, muy poco probable de ser cuestionada, sobre los aracaris depredando el nido.

Las citas se presentan de manera uniforme y se utilizan RP para artículos de varias páginas. Hubo un par de situaciones en las que las citas estaban en el orden incorrecto; las resolví. Parece que está bien para mí; Apoyo . Generalissima ( discusión ) (it/she) 21:32 30 sep 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Comentarios de Mike Christie

Hice algunas correcciones menores; siéntete libre de revertir cualquier cosa con la que no estés de acuerdo.

• "Esto aumentó a 20 individuos a finales de 2023, probablemente gracias al aumento de los esfuerzos de conservación en Mata de Caetés, que en ese momento probablemente tenía 15 individuos": Creo que necesitamos una fecha en lugar de "en ese momento", ya que de lo contrario esto parece decir que había 15 y 20 individuos al mismo tiempo. Pensé que el significado pretendido podría ser 2020, como se menciona en la oración anterior, pero ese no puede ser el caso, ya que solo se conocían 10 individuos en ese momento.

Sí, ambos se refieren a 2023: 15 individuos en la Mata de Caetés y los cinco restantes en la otra reserva, es decir, 20 en total. Espero haberlo dejado más claro ahora.

• El primer párrafo de la sección "Estado de la población y amenazas" no es estrictamente cronológico; creo que se leería más naturalmente si lo fuera.

Lo hice cronológico ahora.

• "la relativamente grande Reserva Biológica Augusto Ruschi podría albergar potencialmente aves aún no detectadas": "podría" es redundante con "potencialmente"; ¿quizás "tiene el potencial de albergar"?
  • (Intervención no solicitada) De la oración deduje que podría haber pájaros allí en este momento , por lo que recomendaría "puede albergar...", o "es posible que haya pájaros aún no detectados alojados en..." "Tiene el potencial de albergar" suena como si pudiera albergarlos , pero en este momento definitivamente no lo hace . UndercoverClassicist ^{T · C} 15:56, 7 de octubre de 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

    Buen punto. Creo que "casa de mayo" funcionaría. Mike Christie ( discusión - contribuciones - biblioteca ) 16:50 7 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Dije "es posible" para dejar en claro que esto es mera especulación. -- Jens Lallensack ( discusión ) 22:46 7 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Esos son los únicos problemas que veo. Mike Christie ( discusión - contribuciones - biblioteca ) 15:47 7 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

¡Gracias Mike! Se han respondido todos los comentarios hasta ahora. -- Jens Lallensack ( discusión ) 22:46 7 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Se ve bien, apoyo . Mike Christie ( discusión - contribuciones - biblioteca ) 00:01 8 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]

Mujinga

• "El nombre en portugués del ave es saíra-apunhalada, que se puede traducir como 'tángara apuñalada' y hace referencia a la mancha roja de la garganta.[5]" - Iba a preguntar por qué 'tángara apuñalada' está entre apóstrofos simples, pero veo que estás usando Template:Gloss, así que parece correcto. ¿Necesitas "que se puede traducir como"? El "puede" se puede leer condicionalmente, supongo que ese es mi problema. Además, ¿sería más directo vincular a https://birdsoftheworld.org/bow/species/chttan1/2.0/systematics que a https://birdsoftheworld.org/bow/species/chttan1/2.0/introduction?
  • Cambiado a "que significa". Normalmente no enlazamos a las páginas de esta fuente individualmente (ver, por ejemplo, Snowy plover , otra fuente de información reciente), ya que la estructura debería dejar claro dónde encontrar qué y la división de contenido en estas páginas de BoW suele ser bastante granular. -- Jens Lallensack ( discusión ) 20:51 11 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]
• "y prefiere el bosque montano denso ombrófilo" - la fuente utiliza el bosque montano denso ombrófilo atlántico, me pregunto cuánto se debe escribir con mayúscula en wikivoice. ¿Vale la pena vincular parte de esto? Si buscamos, Scybalium fungiforme tiene "bosque ombrófilo" vinculado a bosques húmedos de araucaria y el tinamú solitario tiene "bosque montano denso ombrófilo" vinculado a bosque nuboso .
  • Decidí eliminar el término. Parece que se utiliza poco y no parece haber un consenso sobre la terminología aquí. -- Jens Lallensack ( discusión ) 20:51 11 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]
• "In 1994, the bird artist Eduardo P. Brettas observed a bird with a red throat patch at a fazenda near Pirapetinga, Minas Gerais." - I think it would be helpful to link fazenda again here, but that could just be personal preference.
  • Did that. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 20:51, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• " Longevity data is only available for the single ringed bird, which lived for at least 6 years" - "the single ringed bird" hasn't been mentioned before or am I missing something here?
  • Good catch. It is mentioned in "Description", but there I called it "banded", not "ringed". "Banded" is the US term, so I changed the second mention to the same term. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 20:51, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Thanks for this informative article, it was an enjoyable read, just a few non-expert quibbles above Mujinga (talk) 19:39, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thank you for your comments! See my replies above. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 20:51, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • Brilliant, switching to support Mujinga (talk) 21:22, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Cerro Panizos

Nominator(s): Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 10:13, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Second time's hopefully the charm. This volcano is in a remote area of northwestern Argentina and southeastern Bolivia, it bears no traces of recent activity but it is an important member of a regional volcano group. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 10:13, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Graham Beards

I am happy to support with regard to the prose, and the article seems comprehensive. I think the actions suggested in the previous nomination and a recent copyedit have contrinuted much in bringing this contribution to FA level. Graham Beards (talk) 12:19, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'll also support per my review in the previous FAC. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 12:54, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support. I did what was essentially a pre-FAC review on the article talk page and have nothing to add to those comments. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 13:54, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

SC

Comments to come. - SchroCat (talk) 03:36, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Heads up that I will be away for a few days. JoJo Eumerus mobile (main talk) 05:33, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi JoJo, Very little from me, just a few of very minor points:

• "two calderas (a depression...": As 'calderas' is plural, it may be a bit smoother to say '(depressions...'
• "includes Cerro Panizo:[36] it consists of two parts: a volcanic arc" I'm never a fan of two colons in one sentence – maybe swap the first for a full stop?
• "northeast~southwest": did you mean to have a tilde there?
• "antimony, copper, and uranium": you don't use serial commas elsewhere

I hope these help. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 19:17, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@SchroCat: Done. In case you are interested in any pre-nomination review, Socompa is the next article on my FAC block. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:36, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Happy to now Support on prose. I'll add Socompa to the list and try and pop along there shortly. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 07:40, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Image review - pass

Hi Jo-Jo Eumerus, happy to do the image review. The article contains the following images:

• https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki//File:LandsatLook_Viewer_Cerro_Panizos_ignimbrite_shield.png
• https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki//File:South_America_laea_relief_location_map.jpg
• https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki//File:Bolivia_physical_map.svg

Two are public domain, the other is CC BY-SA 3.0. The image "LandsatLook_Viewer_Cerro_Panizos_ignimbrite_shield.png" has an alt text and a caption, the other two images are part of the map preview of the infobox mountain template. All images are relevant to the article and placed appropriately. Phlsph7 (talk) 16:26, 5 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Tim riley

I'm completely ignorant on this subject, but after a careful and enjoyable perusal of the article I'm confident enough to sign up to support. The substantive content is well and widely sourced, and my only quibble on the prose is that we have a rash of "numerous"es: some more precise numbers or at least a few synonyms for "numerous" would be nice. Tim riley talk 22:31, 5 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Synonymized several. @SchroCat: now I am back and available. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:25, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Chitty-Chitty-Bang-Bang

Nominator(s): SchroCat (talk) 07:23, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Chitty-Chitty-Bang-Bang is the only non-Bond novel that Ian Fleming wrote. He did so shortly after suffering a heart attack and while he was supposed to be convalescing. Although he planned to release a story a year, he never saw this first one published, dying two months before it hit the shops. This has been through a re-write recently and all constructive comments from good faith editors are welcome. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 07:23, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

• File:ChittyChittyBangBang.jpg: source link is dead, needs a more expansive FUR
• File:Count_Zborowski_With_Chitty_Bang_Bang_1_At_Brooklands.jpg needs a US tag and author date of death. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:50, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  File:ChittyChittyBangBang.jpg: updated both link and FUR

  File:Count_Zborowski_With_Chitty_Bang_Bang_1_At_Brooklands.jpg: the earliest I can get publication is 1956 (although it's highly likely this was published before), so I've swapped this out for File:Zborowski in the driving seat of Chitty Bang Bang 1.jpg, which is a worse image, but should pass the review. - SchroCat (talk) 06:28, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Tim riley

Had my say at the peer review, and on rereading for FAC I see nothing to add. Happy to support promotion to FA. The article seems to me to meet all the FA criteria. Tim riley talk 21:26, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks for your comments - they were much appreciated, as always. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 06:28, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Crisco 1492

• Oh, I loved this movie growing up!

• cliff hanger - just to confirm, no hyphen in the original?

  There isn't, but as we're able to make minor typographical corrections, and as it's hyphenated few words later, I've added one. - SchroCat (talk) 06:28, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Has there been any commentary on how subsequent adaptations have abandoned the novel's names and styling for the film's (as in the sequels being Chitty Chitty Bang Bang and not Chitty-Chitty-Bang-Bang)?

  Nothing at all - they just disappeared without anyone saying anything. - SchroCat (talk) 06:28, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Roald Dahl - If I remember my history correctly, he and Ian Fleming had been friends. Is there any discussion of this, and the role of their friendship in his adaptation of the novel? (And, of course, would it be a weight issue if anything were included here?)

  There is passing reference to the fact they knew each other, but nothing about any possible impact it had on Dahl's work. - SchroCat (talk) 06:28, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• I've made some small edits; please review.

Overall, nothing but nit-picks from me.  — Chris Woodrich (talk) 23:05, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Cheers Chris, much obliged. - SchroCat (talk) 06:28, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Excellent work as always. Am supporting.  — Chris Woodrich (talk) 11:14, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

PMC

I'm an uncultured millennial who's never seen the movie or read the book, but put me down for a review nonetheless :) ♠PMC♠ (talk) 05:50, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• "the story was one that he had created for his son, Caspar, as a bedtime story" - could probably simplify to "he had created it as a bedtime story for his son, Caspar" or similar
• Since you're linking other things in the synopsis, perhaps also touring car and bonnet (car)
• "that character James Bond" reads a bit awkwardly. "the character" maybe?
• " six-cylinder aero-engine from Maybach. The engines" singular, then plural
• "One important aspect of the car was its sound, which was "almost as important as the appearance"," bit redundant, this sentence could be simplified
• 2nd para of Critical reception overuses "avuncular" a bit, can it be written around?
• In the same para, sentences 2 and 3 both start with "X praised"
• "Three sequels to the book have been written by Frank Cottrell-Boyce." Passive voice here

  I think it's okay in this context - the subject is the book, so we focus on that first, rather than the writer. - SchroCat (talk) 16:16, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• I might reorganize the Adaptations section a bit. Right now, the first half of the para is about adaptations of the original, two contemporary and one 2011. Then the latter half is about the sequels. Then we jump back in time to 1968 to deal with the film, then we close out with the 2002 musical, which precedes the sequels.

  I was going (broadly) for 1. Books; 2. Film; 3. Play, rather than a chronological run-through, with the first para (broadly) about the Fleming story and follow-ons, and the other two paragraphs about the non-Fleming adaptations, but let me rework it a little and see if I can improve it. - SchroCat (talk) 16:16, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  I've moved to a strictly chronological runthrough now. How does that look? - SchroCat (talk) 08:11, 7 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's everything from me, very little to pick at here. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 15:54, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi PMC, just a little nudge on this one - although no obligation to add a !vote either way if you don't want to. - SchroCat (talk) 03:11, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oh no, sorry! For some reason I thought I had replied to this already. Looking good to me, I'm a support. (And I do intend to get to the libels GAN this week). (PS, if you have time, I could use some more eyes at the McQueen Nihilism FAC). ♠PMC♠ (talk) 00:48, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks PMC. Nihilism is on my list, and I should be there in a couple of days at most. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 04:38, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Airship

Loved the book as a kid, but haven't thought about it for decades! Just a couple of things:

• "to necessitate hospitalisation and convalescence, which Fleming undertook at the Dudley Hotel in Hove" it's a bit unclear whether the hotel was the site of hospitalisation and convalescing, or just the latter. Also, "undertook" is a bit clumsy, would personally simplify to "hospitalisation, after which Fleming convalesced at the Dudley..." or similar.
• That paragraph in particular contains so many "Fleming"s that my brain has done the thing where it starts considering a word as a collection of letters instead of an actual word, but I'm not sure if you can remove any and retain intelligibility. See what you think.
• Why does the article primarily use Trog and not Fawkes?

I think he's probably better known as Trog (at least in the UK), as that's his common professional name. - SchroCat (talk) 13:56, 5 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's about it. Nice article. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 12:07, 5 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks AirshipJungleman29. The first two points sorted (although let me know about the second of them) and the third answered. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 13:56, 5 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Excellent work which I gladly support. (If you have the time/inclination, any comments on another FAC of mine would be much appreciated.) ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 11:03, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks for this. I shall certainly pop round Chagatai Khan shortly. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 11:08, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Source review

Is "The Man who Supercharged Bond: The Extraordinary Story of Charles Amherst Villiers." cited by anyone? That ISBN also says that it was published in 2010, not 2009. I am pretty sure I have reviewed the other sources here already. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:08, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think it's cited by anyone (at least, not on the searches I have done). The book itself says 2009 on the imprint page. - SchroCat (talk) 09:12, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Dudley

• "whistle-like sweets". What does this mean? A few words of explanation would be helpful.
• "the author Ian Fleming had published nine books". "The author" is superfluous and he was the author not the publisher.
• "Legal difficulties before publication lead to a hearing". led rather than lead?
• Illustrations. More details of the illustrations would be interesting.

  They would, but none of the sources deal with them as art, just the background on Burningham being used, unfortunately. - SchroCat (talk) 03:42, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Publication history - maybe add the number of pages in the three volumes and the single volume.
• In the lead you say the radio version was on Radio 4 Extra, in the main text Radio 7
• A first rate article - just a few minor points. Dudley Miles (talk) 22:37, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks, as always Dudley; these have all been dealt with (with the one exception) in this edit. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 03:42, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Support. Looks fine now. Dudley Miles (talk) 07:57, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Can't Catch Me Now

Nominator(s): NØ 15:42, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about Olivia Rodrigo's song "Can't Catch Me Now". Just two months after raking in massive critical acclaim with her second studio album, Guts, Rodrigo contributed this lush folk ballad to The Hunger Games: The Ballad of Songbirds & Snakes. The song, which consistently escalates in intensity throughout its duration, drew positive reviews for its sound and Rodrigo's vocal performance. Oscar buzz soon followed but the competition was unfortunately too tough. Thanks a lot to everyone who will take the time to give their feedback here.NØ 15:42, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Pending review from NegativeMP1

Soon. I hope... λ NegativeMP1 17:20, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry, but I'm not sure if I'm going to review this article anymore following some real-world developments. I'm also unsure if I am currently in the right place to determine what meets FA criteria or not. If something like a spotcheck or an image review is needed, let me know in a couple weeks and I might volunteer. But I don't think I will be reviewing the article prose. I wish you luck, and I'll try to make up for it at a later date. λ NegativeMP1 17:55, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Pbritti

Somehow this song from her discography had escaped my notice until now, so this review gives me an excuse to throw it on. Will complete in the next 24 hours. ~ Pbritti (talk) 01:47, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Pbritti: Since it has been a week, I thought I'd send a reminder. But please take your time :) NØ 17:59, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't forgotten! Expect comments tomorrow UTC (for real this time!). ~ Pbritti (talk) 18:01, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

• Is the link Music critics in the lead and §Critical reception overlink? Since music criticism generally is not a matter of discussion here, I think it is.

• Yeah, I was asked to link this during the GA review. I have just unlinked it.--NØ 17:27, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• GAs introduce all sorts of peculiarities. Thanks! ~ Pbritti (talk) 19:48, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• "ubiquitousness" is a good word, but I fear it might not be clear in meaning to a general audience. Perhaps replace with "constant presence" or "inescapable presence" depending on context.
• "For her debut studio album" While I appreciate that Rodrigo's career is still in a comparatively nascent stage, I think that discussion of genres from her debut studio album is off topic and should only be mentioned if a source makes a connection between the "Can't Catch Me Now" and that debut (the current citation is from 2021, so there's an NOR concern, too).
• "returned as her principal collaborator on the follow-up album" The citations for this date to September 2023 and appear to make no reference to the subject. While this could be BLUESKY, I'm inclined by NOR towards asking for a source that explicitly draws a link between the subject song and Nigro's work on Guts.

• Mentioning that a producer was a frequent collaborator of an artist is standard practice for Background sections. "Out of the Woods" mentions the producer's prior work with Taylor Swift, for example. An example of a NOR violation would be a statement like "Can't Catch Me Now was conceived during the Guts sessions". Guts and its success were mentioned in several articles announcing the subject song, like this, this, and this, so the article would be incomplete without discussion of Nigro's involvement in it.--NØ 17:27, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Reliable sources determine the details that comprise complete coverage, so I would like an RS cite here that engages with this relationship as a continuity with Guts. Otherwise, it could be considered as unnecessarily emphasizing Nigro's relationship with Rodrigo's work. ~ Pbritti (talk) 19:46, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Apologies for having to push back on this, but that is not how NOR is applied to background sections based on my experience at FAC. If you see articles like Laundromat (song), even CD liner notes are referenced to provide information on previous collaborations between writers of a song. We cannot nix a project that the two collaborators released together just two months before this song. That part is staying.--NØ 20:19, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• "The album was released to critical acclaim" We probably don't need this regarding Guts for NOR and PUFF reasons, especially without a direct link to "Can't Catch Me Now" in the sources

• This is not a NOR violation since the album receiving critical acclaim is a widely held opinion by secondary sources and is cited. Not really PUFF either since that guideline refers to exceptional claims in wikivoice, e.g. "Mariah Carey is widely regarded as the best vocalist of all-time". An album with a metascore of 91 and six Grammy nominations being referred to as acclaimed is standard fare imo.--NØ 17:27, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Why are we mentioning this critical acclaim at all, though? It's a sentence that has zero bearing on article's subject and utilizes a reference that makes no mention of "Can't Catch Me Now". It's unnecessary glossing. Nix it. ~ Pbritti (talk) 19:46, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• It complements readers' understanding of the critical reception for this song, which is covered later. Comments like it marking "one more step towards Rodrigo's world domination", it representing a change in her sound, or forming an earnest addition to her discography are better understood when not divorced from how her prior output was received.--NØ 20:19, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Is there any non-primary RS information available on the vinyl release? This made me wonder if there's some missing angle to coverage here, but I'm struggling to find any additional content on the 7". Will report back if I have more success with a little more time spent.

• Student newspapers are not allowed as sources on FAs.--NØ 17:27, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• I'm aware, but I linked to it as a possible aspect of the subject that has gone unrepresented in the current article, particularly when the article lacks reference to any secondary source on the 7". ~ Pbritti (talk) 19:46, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Subjects that were not reported on by reliable secondary sources should be unrepresented in the article. Usage of unreliable sources as a reference would constitute a violation of the FA criteria.--NØ 20:19, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• "and chamber-folk ballad," The comma here seems to serve primarily as an anchor for the citations that follow and not as an appropriate grammatical device.
• Thank you for attributing quotes and reviews to the writers rather than their publications. It's infuriating to look at some FAs and GAs see stuff like "the New York Times positively reviewed the song"–no they didn't! A specific critic did! Anyhow, thanks for getting that right.

Will return with additional comments shortly, but my spot-checking of sources is also yielding positive results besides the issues mentioned above. Great work! ~ Pbritti (talk) 16:26, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Pbritti. I look forward to it.--NØ 17:27, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm inclined towards an oppose now, unfortunately. I am especially concerned by the repeated preference to defer to the precedence of individual articles over policy and misunderstanding of my question of whether an element of the subject has been adequately covered. (I am not asking you to cite the article I linked and stated that; I am asking you to tell me if there are RSs that do cover it.) This is exacerbated by the apparent willingness to overlink to comply with a GA request. These are minor requests with a policy basis, so please make them. ~ Pbritti (talk) 23:52, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That is disappointing, since other FAs have been pointed out as examples that your interpretation of policies is not shared by the larger community or the precedent here at FAC. I cannot remove important details from the article due to one user's unpopular interpretation of a guideline. I am not sure how else I am supposed to state this to make it clearer, but no, there aren't any RS that cover the "angle" in the student newspaper you have linked. But thanks for your feedback anyways and happy editing.--NØ 05:33, 13 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Addressed at NORN. No further concerns. The article is well written and the citations are strong. I would reckon it among the best song articles on the project. Support. ~ Pbritti (talk) 14:58, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Review from Sky Harbor

I was asked to review the article on WP:DISCORD, and at first glance the prose looks good. Maybe a couple of errors here or there but otherwise written well. In honor of Olivia Rodrigo's Guts World Tour and it stopping in the Philippines (and also because she's Filipino American and it's Filipino American History Month), I will endeavor to review this more deeply and will post some thoughts on the article later depending on my real-life workload. --Sky Harbor ^(talk) 16:24, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi there, MaranoFan. Thank you very much for taking the time to write this article, and I'm glad that you had taken the time to write it. For this review, I will focus primarily on prose and writing, deferring to others more versed in the current FA process than me for more technical aspects:

• In the first sentence of the composition and lyrics section, I would include that Dylan Waterhouse plays the instruments you mention in the next sentence ("..., who also plays..."). In the current arrangement I am left wondering who "he" is.
• In the music video section, is the "white sleek dress" a specific dress, or is it a white dress that happens to be slimming?
• I personally write out numbers as words so long as it's ten or below ("Ten days later" instead of "10 days later"), but I get that this is a stylistic choice.

• According to MOS:NUMERAL, it seems to be a personal choice for integers greater than nine.--NØ 05:34, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As I mentioned initially, the prose itself is written well so I don't see any major impediments to the article becoming an FA, and I think the suggestions made here would push that case even further. Best of luck. --Sky Harbor ^(talk) 14:22, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks for reviewing this and the nice words, Sky Harbor. Done on points one and two.--NØ 05:34, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Great! I appreciate the edits made and I am glad to vote Support for this nomination. --Sky Harbor ^(talk) 22:02, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

• "which intersperses scenes from The Hunger Games: The Ballad of Songbirds & Snakes with clips of Rodrigo singing it in a cabin and a grass field" => "which intersperses scenes from The Hunger Games: The Ballad of Songbirds & Snakes with clips of Rodrigo singing the song in a cabin and a grass field"
• "On November 1, 2023, Rodrigo's hotline" - what's her "hotline"?

• It's a phone number, upon calling which fans can hear snippets of upcoming music from Rodrigo.--NØ 09:12, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Wow, that's very 1980s! LOL -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 09:26, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• "The lyrics of "Can't Catch Me Now" are written from Lucy Gray's perspective" - her surname appears to have gone missing.....
• That's it I think - nice work! -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:25, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• All done, ChrisTheDude. Thanks for the comments. I really, really appreciate it.--NØ 09:12, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Support -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 09:26, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Image and source review - pass

Image licencing, rationales and placement seem OK to me. The sample needs an ALT text. Sources look pretty mainstream but I wonder why some have archives and others don't. What makes Qobuz a reliable source? Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:23, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This sample does not contain video so it does not need ALT text. TimedText is already present. All sources should now have archives except the singlechart templates, as there does not currently exist a way of adding archives to them. Qobuz is just a music store and streaming service which is used for credits since Tidal went behind a paywall. The information about credits is provided to them by the record label when songs are published there. In the case of this song, it matches the vinyl booklet (hard to read). Do the reviews pass now, Jo-Jo Eumerus?--NØ 10:14, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

OK Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 13:23, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Going to qualify that Pbritti's concerns above are not overridden by my review of the sources, though. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:51, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Query for the coordinators

@FAC coordinators: Since this is almost down to older nominations, would it be okay for me to put up another one? My schedule has changed a bit due to starting a job and I would only have time to attend to comments on a new nomination during the weekends (aka the next few days).--NØ 04:10, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it would. FrB.TG (talk) 05:02, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Older nominations

American Writers

Nominator(s): Dugan Murphy (talk) 15:37, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

America's #2 novelist travels to London in 1823 to become #1 and reverse British disdain for US literature. Pretending to be English, he hooks up with a Scottish publisher and becomes a regular contributor for a leading Edinburgh magazine – the first American to do so! One of his submissions is the first attempt anywhere at a history of American literature and the first critical survey of the new nation's authors. British readers appreciate it and American readers go nuts in their hatred, the biggest hater being a young newspaper apprentice named William Lloyd Garrison. In the long run, the words bear influence and the critic is to a degree absolved by scholarship. This is my 9th FA nomination (7th on a John Neal (writer) topic). I very much appreciate reviewers taking the time to read the article and leave comments. Dugan Murphy (talk) 15:37, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Image review - pass

Hello Dugan Murphy, happy to do the image review. The article contains the following images:

• https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki//File:Spine_of_American_Writers_by_John_Neal_edited_by_Fred_Lewis_Pattee_1937.jpg
• https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki//File:John_Neal_by_Sarah_Miriam_Peale_1823_Portland_Museum_of_Art.jpg
• https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki//File:William_Blackwood.jpg
• https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki//File:Blackwoods_Edinburgh_Magazine_title_page_volume_16.jpg
• https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki//File:Broadside_Decrying_John_Neal_1827_in_Portland_Maine.jpg

They are all in public domain, mainly because the underlying works are not covered by copyright anymore due to their age. All images are relevant to the article and placed at appropriate locations. They all have captions and alt texts. The only minor issue I spotted is that the caption of "John Neal by Sarah Miriam Peale 1823 Portland Museum of Art.jpg" says "1823" but wiki commons page says "circa 1823". Phlsph7 (talk) 16:30, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Phlsph7: Thanks for the image review and for picking up on the Peale painting date issue. I just made the recommended change to that image caption. Does the image review pass? Dugan Murphy (talk) 17:04, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, that takes care of the remaining concern. Phlsph7 (talk) 07:41, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

EG comments

I'll leave some comments soon. – Epicgenius (talk) 22:53, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Lead:

• The two lead paragraphs are a bit long, which is not bad in itself. However, for readability, I recommend splitting off the sentence beginning with "The series was well received in the UK and exerted measurable influence over British critics" (currently in paragraph 2) into its own paragraph. This new paragraph seems like it would roughly correspond with the "Contemporary reactions" and "Modern scholarship" sections.

Recommendation accepted. Dugan Murphy (talk) 00:30, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Para 1: The phrasing "later critics decades later" is a bit clunky. I'd reword this, e.g. changing the first "later" to "subsequent"

Great point. I chose "other" instead. Dugan Murphy (talk) 00:30, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Para 2: "Moving there from Baltimore, his goals" - This has a dangling modifier. Neal, not his goals, moved to the UK from Baltimore.

I swapped "Moving there from Baltimore" to "Having moved there from Baltimore". Dugan Murphy (talk) 00:30, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Para 2: "That edition remains the most accessible of Neal's literary productions." - Pattee's edition?

Clarified. Dugan Murphy (talk) 00:30, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Blackwood engages Neal

• Para 2: "Neal's resources were running low after living in England with no income for three months." - This also has a dangling modifier (Neal's resources didn't live in England; Neal did).

Reworded. Dugan Murphy (talk) 00:30, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Para 3: "a period in which such periodicals were more influential than ever before" - Should this be "a period when..."?

Yes, I think so. Done. Dugan Murphy (talk) 00:30, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Para 3: "The magazine had not, however, published a single piece on an American topic from June 1822 until Neal's first piece in May 1824." - Unless June 1822 was when Blackwood's was first published (which it wasn't), I would rephrase this to "The magazine did not, however, publish a single piece on an American topic from June 1822 until Neal's first piece in May 1824." Otherwise, it may sound like it had never published a single piece on an American topic, ever, and that June 1822 was when its first piece ever was published.

Rephrased. Dugan Murphy (talk) 00:30, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

More in a bit. – Epicgenius (talk) 22:06, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Epicgenius: Thank you for noticing all these! I have addressed each comment so far. Dugan Murphy (talk) 00:30, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No problem. I'll have some more comments on Thursday or Friday. Thanks for getting to these so quickly. – Epicgenius (talk) 00:31, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oops, I forgot about this. I will leave comments on Monday. – Epicgenius (talk) 17:33, 5 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Epicgenius: Hog Farm's review is complete. Feel free to jump back in when you're ready! Dugan Murphy (talk) 02:06, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds good. I'll leave some comments shortly. – Epicgenius (talk) 13:06, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Steady contributorship:

• Para 1: I might have been missing something, but why would Blackwood reject Neal's articles after learning who Neal was? Was it because Blackwood didn't want to accept an American's submission?

It was Walker, not Blackwood. The rejection was because Neal was American, so I edited the sentence to clarify. Dugan Murphy (talk) 19:28, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Para 3: "The first installment of the American Writers series came out in the September 1824 issue" - The phrasing "out in" sounds kind of awkward so I would just use "was published" in place of "came out".

Changed. Dugan Murphy (talk) 19:28, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Anonymity:

• Para 2: "under the name X.Y.Z." - Technically this would be an initialism or an acronym.

Changed "name" to "initials". Dugan Murphy (talk) 19:28, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Paras 2 and 3: "most British readers likely knew they were reading the work of an American" ... "Readers on both sides of the Atlantic largely knew they were reading the work of an American" - In light of the second statement, the first seems repetitive. I think you could rephrase this section to only include the second statement ("Readers on both sides of the Atlantic largely knew they were reading the work of an American").

I didn't follow your suggestion exactly, but I changed the first sentence of the last paragraph in that section to remove the reference to British readers. Dugan Murphy (talk) 19:28, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Content:

• Para 1: Do any of the sources explain why there is a discrepancy between the quantities of names? (For instance, were there instances in which several people were covered in the same paragraph?)

None that I can find. My understanding of the discrepancy is explained below in answer to one of Hog Farm's comments, but that's not appropriate to include in the article. Dugan Murphy (talk) 19:28, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Para 1: "a proportionality Richards said was "frequently grossly violated"" - Later on in this section, the article mentions that Neal wrote about all of these authors from his own memory. If I'm reading this correctly, was the proportionality of the description of each author based on how much he remembered about them (rather than being based on their importance in the American literary scene)?

I believe Richards in that quote was saying that Cooper (top US novelist at the time) deserved more than half a page if Neal was to give himself 8. None of the sources say that all the authors who got less coverage from Neal got that little because of Neal's poor memory. Dugan Murphy (talk) 19:28, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Para 3: "He wrote it all in a style unique to himself" - Do the sources describe this style at all?

I changed "style" to "conversational tone" to clarify. Dugan Murphy (talk) 19:28, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Para 4: "Richards considered that coverage to be far out of proportion to his role in American literature" - Nothing wrong with this sentence, I just found it funny that he believed himself to be one of the few writers of "truly American literature" and wrote eight pages about himself.

That's John Neal. He was about as shy about praising himself as he was about taking himself down. He did both in American Writers, as the article states. Dugan Murphy (talk) 19:28, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Para 4: "Neal's critique of William Cullen Bryant was likely the basis for the section on Bryant in James Russell Lowell's satirical poem A Fable for Critics over twenty years later" - Was this critique parodied for being inaccurate?

Not at all. The source quotes Neal's critique of Bryant and says: "Lowell later put this into metres in his Fable for Critics." Dugan Murphy (talk) 19:28, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, I see. – Epicgenius (talk) 19:30, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

More in a bit. – Epicgenius (talk) 14:23, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Epicgenius: Thanks for these comments! They are all addressed. Dugan Murphy (talk) 19:28, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for addressing them so quickly, and my apologies for being relatively slow with these comments. I'll leave more feedback this weekend. – Epicgenius (talk) 19:31, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

United Kingdom:

• Para 1: "many used quotes to substantiate" - I'd clarify that they used quotes from American Writers.

Clarified! Dugan Murphy (talk) 19:31, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Para 1: "with ushering a brief period of increased critical attention of his novels among British reviewers" - Would the British Critic review (in the previous sentence) be one such example of increased critical attention?

Yes. Dugan Murphy (talk) 19:31, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• In general, I take it that British periodicals reviewed American Writers much more positively than American periodicals?

Yes, that's what the second sentence of the "United States" section says. Dugan Murphy (talk) 19:31, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

United States:

• Para 1: "Neal wrote five novels in Baltimore" - This is referring retrospectively to Neal's authorship of these novels, so I would say "Neal had written five novels in Baltimore...".

Recommendation accepted! Dugan Murphy (talk) 19:31, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Para 2: Were there any other notable American authors, besides Fairfield, who reviewed the piece positively?

Not that I can find in the sources. Richards introduces that Fairfield quote by saying that Fairfield represented a minority in the US on the matter. Dugan Murphy (talk) 19:31, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Portland, Maine:

• I wonder if this section should be retitled to reflect that it's about Neal's return to Portland, Maine. The way the section is currently titled, it gives the impression that this is solely about commentary from people in Portland, Maine.

The parent category is "Contemporary reactions" and this subsection is "Portland, Maine". The way I see it, each of these subsections is thus understood to be "Contemporary reactions in <UK/US/Portland>". It feels beside the point that the contemporary reactions presented in the previous two subsections are all printed in periodicals, versus in Portland, where they were printed on broadsides and communicated with a racist prank and fistfights. Dugan Murphy (talk) 19:31, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Influence on American writers:

• "By claiming the US did not yet have a distinct literature, it is possible Neal helped authors of the later American Renaissance" - Did any specific person say this? The text that I've underlined gives the impression that there may be disagreement over whether Neal did help authors of the later American Renaissance.

I don't mean to give an impression of disagreement, so I've reworded to hopefully better reflect the source. This is what it says: "In his essays on American literature as of 1824 in Blackwood's Magazine, he described all American writers—including himself—as failing to imagine or enact a genuinely American literature suited to express the energy, newness, and difference that elsewhere distinguished the new nation from its English forebears. In brief, Neal suggested that Charles Brockden Brown, Washington Irving, and James Fenimore Cooper were little more than transatlantic reproductions of, respectively, William Godwin, Oliver Goldsmith, and Sir Walter Scott. With the decks so cleared, Emerson and his associates could imagine for themselves a fresh start, so disregarding fifty years of American writing since independence." Dugan Murphy (talk) 19:31, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'll have more by Thursday. – Epicgenius (talk) 16:45, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Epicgenius: Thank you for the additional comments! I have addressed them all. Looking forward to more. Dugan Murphy (talk) 19:31, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

HF

I'll review this once Epicgenius has completed their review. Hog Farm _Talk 13:32, 7 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Hog Farm, feel free to review the article. It might take me a while to get through this page due to real-life work commitments, and I can resume my review once you're done. – Epicgenius (talk) 16:14, 7 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, here we go. I'm trying to multitask between reviewing this and listening to the KC Royals playoff game, so apologies if some of this doesn't make any sense. Hog Farm _Talk 02:10, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• " The first postmortem republication of any of his works was 1937," - the phrasing in the body says that this was the first republishment of a substantial work by Neal; would it be better to weaken the statement in the lead similar to how it is phrased in the body?

Yes! Done. Dugan Murphy (talk) 01:45, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• "Neal did not publish anything else substantial in Blackwood's until September, however" - how are we defining "substantial" here? Because this would imply what is mostly a gap between February 1825 and September 1825, but we've earlier state that he published an article in every issue between July 1824 and February 1826

Thank you for bringing this up. The Sears book does say he had an article in every issue between July 1824 and February 1826, but checking that against other sources, it seems that Sears has a typo and meant to say Feb 1825, not 1826. I have changed Feb 1826 to Feb 1825 in the first paragraph of that section and left the last sentence of that section alone. By saying he didn't publish anything substantial between Feb 1825 and Sep 1825, I could also say that the only thing he published in Blackwood's between those two issues is what Richards describes as a "short note" on Maximilian Godefroy. I think it's better as it is rather than adding this detail, but let me know if you think otherwise. Dugan Murphy (talk) 01:45, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Is it intentional that the minimum number of authors detail in this work is 120, but the list of author critiqued at the end of the article only contains 119 entries?

The list of authors at the end of the article is based on the table of contents for the 1937 edition, which lists out the authors covered in each installment. Your comment gave me reason to double-check for differences between this part of the article and the TOC. I found 3 authors missing from the Wiki article, so now the Wiki list includes 122. There are two cases in which Neal lists one author name, but Pattee clarifies in each case that the name is a pen name shared by two different authors. This is to say that, if I used the pen names in this list instead of the authors' individual real names, there would be exactly 120. For the scholars who count 135, I think they are counting not only the 122 in this Wiki list, but a few authors mentioned briefly by Neal in the 5 core installments who did not make into the 1937 TOC, as well as the extra authors mentioned in "Late American Books", which is often lumped in with the American Authors series and was included in the 1937 edition. However, those authors are not mentioned in the 1937 TOC, so I decided not to include them in the article's list. Thank you for reading all that and let me know if you have any thoughts on it. Dugan Murphy (talk) 01:45, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Check the page range in the long citation for Strachan et al? The long citation indicates that you are citing the introduction, which is pp. xxii through xx, but you end up citing p. 257 of that work

Good catch! The roman numeral citations are for the introduction to volume 6; the page 257 citation is to the introduction to the chapter on American Writers. I've added a separate entry in the source list for the item on page 257 and edited the inline citations to fit. Dugan Murphy (talk) 01:45, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Excellent work here; I fully expect to support. Hog Farm _Talk 02:10, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Hog Farm: Thanks for the compliment! I have addressed all your comments. Do you think any of those comments warrant further discussion or do you have other comments? Dugan Murphy (talk) 01:45, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The changes look good to me; supporting Hog Farm _Talk 02:27, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Laquintasaura

Nominator(s): LittleLazyLass (Talk | Contributions) 06:49, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about one of the earliest known members of Ornithischia, one of the three major groups of dinosaurs. It's a very important picture of their evolution and the first time a primitive ornithischian rather than one of the more famous later forms has made it up to FAC—though hopefully not the last. LittleLazyLass (Talk | Contributions) 06:49, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

General thoughts by Generalissima

• I would heavily, heavily recommend using SFNs or some other form of page notation for every book/journal cite. This makes it a lot easier for both readers and reviewers.

  As far as I understand citation style between full and short notation is a matter of preference; I've always found them needlessly obtuse and, on a more objective note, they see next to no use within the Dinosaur WikiProject, especially at the FA level. The current citation approach is consistent with these other articles.

• A lot of these paragraphs are a bit too large to be easily readable in my eyes; the penultimate paragraph of the Discovery and naming section is the worst offender here.

  Breaking up all of the paragraphs, which are separated based on content, would be very damaging to the flow in my opinion. I have however moved a sentence out of the specific paragraph you highlighted to a smaller paragraph in the section in order to alleviate the worst case.

• Lede seems a bit short relative to the total length of the body, might be good to beef it up a little.

  I was initially skeptical how much of an introduction could be written about such a simple taxon, but I've expanded it significant and am quite happy with the result.

• All images are appropriately licensed. This isn't a FA requirement, but I'd recommend adding alt-text.

  Added; I don't have a lot of experience with alt text so I hope I did alright.

That's all at first check. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 07:25, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Okay! With the changes things are looking a bit better. Support on image/prose. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 23:14, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Feedback by Shushugah

• I did not realize how prominent country locations were for Dinosaurs, despite fact that Earth/geopolitics has changed a lot since. For example Lesotho is enclaved within South Africa. But if this is the convention, I accept it.

  I wasn't aware of guidelines surrounding country linking; removed the links.

• Use straight quotes ie wiki conventions for MOS:APOSTROPHE e.g not ‘’

  I've fixed what I think is the only problem case here, but let me know if I've missed one.

• a partial left ischium

  Fixed.

• Place image of skull in Section about features, particularly passage about uniform teeth

  No free images of the skull material are available, but I will see if any of our usual palaeo diagram makers can whip up one of the teeth since they're the distinctive portion.

  Never mind, I mixed up what is represented in File:Lesothosaurus sp skull 3894.jpg

• In the diagram, why do other names e.g Parapredentata preview to Ornithischia?

  They do not have their own pages and so redirect to their parent clade, which is considered to be similar enough in topic that it would be redundant to give them all pages. Either way it's not particularly the concern of this article how the higher clades are organized on the site.

• Putting two wide charts in same row is inaccessible on desktop and certainly mobile. Move them to separate and avoid language like "left/right" chart and instead refer to first/second charts.

  It can certainly be made sequential if it's a dealbreaker issue, but it's been used in dinosaur FAs such as Lythronax and Spinophorosaurus before. Desktop setups will vary but the mobile app does not have any issue displaying the two cladograms for me.

  Formally WP:ACCESSIBILITY is not part of FA criteria, but I find it very unreadable on mobile (web view) and think it could be improved with a table title for each.

  How does this version with sequential cladograms look?

• Section named Palaeoecology does not make it obvious what Palaeoecology even is.

  This is a standard section in many dinosaurs FAs (sometimes substituted for palaeoenvironment), and does not usually include an explicit explanation. But as soon as I track down a citation I can add a link to the paleoecology page if necessary.

  I can open the article on Palaeoecology, if I know to search/click for it. So a short 1-2 line intro helps. Readers might be avid paleo-enthusiasts or completely new to the topic, so should cater to both audiences.

• I like the layout of Theropoda where it has a Biology section, and within each is organized by section for easier navigation.

  While a dinosaur article would usually include a "palaeobiology" section touching on the various physiological functions of the animal, this research simply doesn't exist in Laquintasaura. The only potential contents would be the couple sentences of histological information currently within the [physical] description section instead.

Sourcing and references

• Wiki link all journals/websites mentioned in sourcing

  Done.

• Consistently link to DOI

  As far as I can tell this is already the case.

  You are right. I was checking in edit mode

• Consistent author names Breeden III, Bejamin T. and Breeden, Benjamin T.

  Fixed.

• Inline body, is it normal to quote full name of first author and only last name of second author? Example A later 2021 study by Carlos-Manuel Herrera-Castillo, Sánchez-Villagra

  I'd consider that an oversight, I'll change it.

  Oh, I actually see why this was written that was now. Sanchez-Villagra was already introduced with his full name earlier in the section, and so just used his last name afterwards. Herrera-Castillo is first referred to in this sentence and uses a full name.

• Some incorrect source parameters including incorrect pages e.g pages=e75248, pages=e1791894 and pages=e12619.

  I was under the impression this was how the way to implement those codes for digital publications, but perhaps I am incorrect.

~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 11:54, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

FM

• I'll have a look soon, some preliminary comments below. FunkMonk (talk) 10:33, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Modern countries are usually not linked, per WP:What generally should not be linked.

  Fixed.

• I see some WP:duplinks, they can be highlighted with this script:[3] Ignore those duplicated from the cladograms, of course.
• Could pipelink paleoart at restoration, since often that term causes confusion among layreaders.

  Done.

• Why are Thyreophora and Neornithischia bolded in the cladogram?

  I imported it from the Ornithischia article where they're highlighted as major clades and overlooked removing the bolding. Now fixed.

• "whose remains are found in the same bonebed as Laquintasaura" Were found? Why present tense?

  Tenses have always been my biggest struggle with writing. Fixed.

• "showing a distinct triangular shape" Its triangular shape?

  Fixed.

• "Holotype tooth of Laquintasaura" Link holotype.

  Fixed.

• "it may have shared omnivorous behaviour" Diet instead of behaviour?

  Fixed.

• "and a quadrate" Link and spell out quadrate bone, even explain where in the skull it is located in parenthesis.

  How's it look now?

• You can link anatomical terms to the Dinogloss.

  Did this for description, but overlooked it for discovery. Added now.

• "an early ornithischian" Link this and other terms at first mention always.

  Added in that case.

• "Finding no vertebrate fossils" Link vertebrate.

  Added.

• Unlink Argentina.

  Removed.

• Link fossil preparation.

  Added.

• "by a team of French palaeontologists" Who led this expedition?

  Neither the 2021 paper nor the 1992 paper (which I hadn't managed to access until trying again just now) state as much explicitly. The 1992 paper uses the plural first person pronoun "nous", so by context I'd assume Russel, but there's no direct source for this.

• "Several years later in the late 1990s, he would become aware" Who is "he"? You mention no people in the preceding sentence.

  Sánchez-Villagra; switched in pronoun for his name.

• "their return to Venezuela as well, when they were deposited in the collections of the Museu de Biología de la Universidad de Zulia (MBLUZ)." "where" make more sense than "when"?
• Fixed.
• "conduct additional expeditions to find additional material" The double "additional" is repetitive.

  Removed first one.

• " they were referred to the genus Lesothosaurus" In what what? As L. sp. or to a specific species?

  cf. Lesothosaurus sp., now clarified in a prose format.

• "became aware he was no longer permitted to study it there" Do we know why and what happened to the material?

  The 2021 paper simply states that he became aware he could not access them.

• "obtained a grant from the Jurassic Foundation" Where is this organisation?

  America, apparently. I'm not sure what to source that to, though. It seems like a big organization, but I don't see a ton of dedicated academic sources and none of the Laquintasaura papers specify this.

• Do we really need to know in what journals studies were published in? Doesn't really seem to add much to the story, and can just be checked in the citations.

  I suppose not, removed.

• "Tibia and ischium of Tachiraptor, whose remains are found in the same bonebed as Laquintasaura" Do we know when and during which expeditions?

  Not as far as I can tell.

• Link more bone articles when you list the known elements under discovery. Many of the are also uncommon enough that they could need in-text explanation in parenthesis.

  Added.

• It would make more chronological sense to list what the type specimen(s) is in the paragraph where you deal with the naming and material than in the subsequent paragraph where it seems unrelated to the surrounding text.

  I've tried an extensive restructuring of the last two paragraphs to be more sensible in this respect while not overburdening the size of either paragraph. Hopefully it's better.

• "later described with a newly recognized tibia" Newly means little if you don't give a date.

  It's meant to be newly relative to the teeth, but I've reworded the whole sentence to be more clear.

  Actually, it seems I misunderstood and the teeth and tibia are two unrelated discoveries, with the former not referred to Tachiraptor. I've reworded the sentence again to correct this.

• "Locality of the bonebed" You could add the name of the country or the formation to the caption.

  Added.

• You start by mentioning a French team, and the go on to mention another team that appears to be local, but without giving their nationality. Could be good to mention for context. And since much of this seems to be "parachute-science", perhaps also for other people mentioned.

  The other scientist from the 1989 reconnaissance is acknowledged as Venezuelan, but the membership or nationality of the expeditions from 1992 to 1994 isn't specified aside from James Clark, who is American (not stated in the paper). Sánchez-Villagra is apparently Argentinian/Venezuelan and resides in Switzerland, but I don't imagine there's an academic source for that. As far as the parachute science goes I did add a note from the 1992 paper that there was intent to return the specimens to Venezuela after study, though this doesn't appear to have actually happened until Sánchez-Villagra intervened.

• Looks like many generic names need italics in citation titles.

  Fixed, and added missing citation urls while I was at it. Left Tachiraptor un-italicized in the news article source to match the formatting used on the website.

• "The small size and conservative skeletal anatomy of the species" Since you mainly use the generic name, including in the preceding sentences, it seems off that you say species and not genus.

  Switched to genus name.

• "with traits with armor and quadrupedality" With traits like?

  Fixed.

• Changes so far look good, review of the rest below. FunkMonk (talk) 16:25, 5 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Link tooth crown?

• Explain denticles (serrations).

• Explain where the premaxilla and maxilla are.

• "Convergently similar anatomy, with a tall tooth construction and striations, does occur convergently in" Is it necessary to say convergently twice in a sentence?

• Premaxilla is linked at least three times.

• Explain diastema.

• Link and explain basal.

• Link suture.

• "than the dentition, the postcranium" Perhaps say "postcranial skeleton" for clarity.

• Explain diagnostic in this context.

• Explain synapomorphies.

• You'll probably be asked about this for the image review, so you could add references to the Commons description of the life restoration that supports the anatomy shown. Note I fixed the arm position and made the snout a bit longer on IJReid's request.

The skeletal diagram by Maurissaurio could be referenced (He, Mauricio Garcia, is a published researcher in the area). IJReid ^{{{T - C - D - R}}} 20:22, 5 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Could add a reference to the size comparison Commons page for the size shown.

• Link taxa.

• The tooth diagram could have a reference for what source it is based on (perhaps IJReid knows).

Just the type tooth in the original description. IJReid ^{{{T - C - D - R}}} 20:22, 5 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Link and explain derived.

• "described in detail in the supplementary material of the 2014 description paper" I think it would be better to explain some of these in the article, the sentence basically says "read the supplements" instead of summarising them.

• Explain what and where the predentary bone is.

• "may be intermediate to that of Triassic silesaurs and Jurassic ornithischians" Intermediate between?

• "Its fourth trochanter is wider and lacking in protrusion than other Jurassic taxa" Protrudes less?

• "Similarly, the head of the femur has flat shape" A flat shape?

• The phylogenetic relationships of Laquintasaura remains" Remain (relationships is plural).

• "It is robustly considered" Widely would be a more straightforward way of saying it.

• "but its exact position within this clade are unresolved" is unresolved (position is singular).

• Explain polytomy.

• "Some later phylogenetic analyses have had to remove the taxon from phylogenetic analyses outright" No need for double phylogenetic analyses, and the term should be linked at first mention.

• "early member of the group Thyreophora (armored dinosaurs)" Add the explanation of the term at first mention, this is many mentions down.

• Explain sister taxon.

• Link and explain bone histology at first mention.

• "known Saphornithischia" missing as.

• "and an grade of animals" A grade (starts with a consonant).

• Remove link to Silesauridae, already linked in preceding section.

• "by André Fonseca and colleagues" Give year as you do for other studies mentioned.

• "Clade names have been inserted based on definitions established by a paper by Daniel Madzia and colleagues in 2021 for clarity" This might be problematic, per discussions about whether this constitutes WP:synth. Can we get the cladograms as they are in the respective papers alone?

Fonseca et al. (2024) does have Laquintasaura as a basal thyreophoran with clades labelled if needed. IJReid ^{{{T - C - D - R}}} 20:22, 5 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Also newer, so could be better. FunkMonk (talk) 02:46, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Explain grade. Perhaps specify evolutionary grade.

• "found to belong to subadult individual who had not " individuals?

• "tightly spaced lines of arrested growth and extensive bone remodelling" These terms need explanation and links if most people are going to understand them.

• "Laquintasaura hails from the La Quinta Formation in what is now Colombia and Venezuela" Could say of instead of in, to make it clearer Laquintasaura is not known from Colombia.

• "potentially as little as one hundred and fifty thousand years from the end of the Triassic period" Could specify "the preceding Triassic period".

• Link equatorial.

• Jurassic is linked a lot of times.

• Explain taphonomy.

• Tachiraptor is linked multiple times.

• "and maybe have lived together in life" May have lived? Maybe lived? Current wording is odd.

• "A small animal, it is thought to have been a lightly built" Remove "a" before "lightly built".

• " One of the first species known to possess the distinctive bird-like hip bone of ornithischians, it would have been a capable bipedal runner." Only stated explicitly in intro, which should not have unique info.

• "Unlike the leaf shaped teeth" You should use this term in the article body too.

• "These may have contributed to an omnivorous diet" That's an odd way to put it, reflected an omnivorous diet?

• "make it a key insight" I'm not sure you can say a dinosaur is an insight, must be another way to put it. It gives insight?

• "Taxonomic uncertainty has led to conflicting hypotheses that it is either an early diverging ornithischian or part of the subgroup Thyreophora." You should add before this that it is widely considered an ornithicschian at least.

• "early dinosaurs on the supercontinent of Pangaea" You only mention Pangaea in the intro.

• "Previous research had cast doubt on whether dinosaurs lived around the equator during their early evolution, and on when ornithischians first spread to the northern Hemisphere" The article body doesn't state there was doubt about the latter point.

Jens

I already reviewed this at GAN, but here some more comments, for now just on the lead:

• The first sentences generally feel too complicated with unnecessary technical terms, while focus on the crucial information is lacking. I suggest to follow the usual formulations we use in other dinosaur FAs, something like "Laquintasaura is a genus of ornithischian dinosaur that lived during the Early Jurassic in what is now Venezuela. The only known species is Laquintasaura venezuelae." This now contains "Early Jurassic", which is a crucial information that should appear at the beginning of the lead. Also, you avoid "Venezuelan dinosaur", which, I think, is not fully accurate (it was discovered in Venezuela). Also, it avoids the unnecessary technical term "type species".
• The lead also lacks some wikilinks (we usually link terms such as "primitive", "Greek", "trait"; I would also link "palaeontologist" and "prepared" (to fossil preparation), note that this will appear on the main page to attract a wide readership with no background, so it should be as accessible as possible.
• and being preyed upon by the contemporary Tachiraptor – I am pretty sure this needs a "possibly", since we can't know for sure, can we?
• Aspects of its femoral anatomy, possessing only some traits of later relatives – "femoral" needs wikilink, but I would even suggest to reformulate as "Its upper thigh bone (femur) has only some of the traits found in later relatives".
• northern Hemisphere – why capitalise here?
• numerous expeditions have been conducted – please check if "numerous" is adequate here; I can't find this in the body at first glance, too. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 23:08, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Coordinator note

Three weeks in and just the one support. LittleLazyLass, I notice you haven't edited since 30 Sep but if you're seeing this, I recommend that you resolve the outstanding comments by reviewers above and ping them when done otherwise it might have to be archived in the next few days if there's no progress. FrB.TG (talk) 07:15, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, I'll make sure to make more edits today. I've just been busy lately, sorry. LittleLazyLass (Talk | Contributions) 15:55, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

45th Chess Olympiad

Nominator(s): Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 22:49, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about an international team chess tournament in the spirit of the Olympic Games that took place in Budapest, Hungary in September 2024. The featured article on the 44th Chess Olympiad was used as a model.Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 22:49, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

• Don't use fixed px size

• Some images are missing alt text. Nikkimaria (talk) 05:02, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the review. I've corrected the image formatting.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 07:25, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Edwininlondon

Well, that was quick, it only just ended. I shall review in a few days time, once the frequency of edits has gone down. Edwininlondon (talk) 09:37, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Just commenting on the lead for now:

• (Hungarian: 45. sakkolimpia) ==> if I read MOS:LEAD and MOS:LEADLANG correctly then this should be removed. I can see that the other Olympiad articles do this as well, but it just clutters the opening sentence with virtually no benefit
• It was the first Chess Olympiad in Hungary since Budapest hosted the 2nd unofficial Chess Olympiad in 1926. ==> I don't see why this is so important to make it into the lead. MOS:LEADREL
• A number of national teams ==> why not give the actual number?
• Additionally, this was also the first Chess Olympiad in which teams of refugees ==> this info seems better placed a bit earlier on, right after the counts of participating nations
• first Chess Olympiad in which teams of refugees were participating in both sections ==> this is ambiguous: did previously only in one section?
• India won ==> if you look at for instance FA UEFA Euro 2016 final you see that nation names link to the article about their national team. If an equivalent article for chess exists, you can link there (I couldn't find one for India).
• I would expect silver and bronze winners in the lead as well
• I would recommend mentioning in the lead the fact that in the Open, India were the only unbeaten team.
• Also missing in the lead: 21 out of 22 possible match points was record breaking (it seems it's even missing from the body as well)
• Also missing in the lead: 11 rounds
• Also missing in the lead: 4 players per round (chess isn't by definition a team sport, so a bit of help to understand the reader how it works is needed)

More soon. Edwininlondon (talk) 14:28, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Edwininlondon: Thanks for your comments. I've taken care of them all.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 14:48, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I see award-winning journalist Leonard Barden has written a review of this event in his Guardian column. Seems an important source. This is what I take from it:

• India being 4 points clear in the Open is noteworthy enough to go in the lead
• India winning four individual golds is noteworthy enough to go in the lead
• Barden calls it a "seminal moment in chess history"
• not necessarily in the lead, but it should be mentioned that "For the first time in any Olympiad, no European team reached the podium in either the Open or the Women’s event"
• consider using somewhere the gist of this "The Norwegian’s ambition of eliminating one of the few gaps in his career record remains unfulfilled"
• consider using Erigasi reaching 3rd on FIDE ranking as a result of his performance
• consider using the gist of this "India’s prime minister, Narendra Modi, received the two Indian teams at his residence to congratulate them"
• not necessarily in the lead, but it should be mentioned that "Gukesh’s win against China’s Wei Yi has been awarded the Olympiad Best Game prize"
• consider using Barden's view of Vishy Anand's role
• consider using the gist of this "The result was redemption for the 2022 Olympiad at Chennai, when on home ground India faltered in the final rounds and were passed by Uzbekistan"
• consider using the gist of "Nakamura identified Wesley So as a weak link, but the former Filipino, after a shaky start, scored the win against China which ensured silver medals for the US."

I see the article has dropped from the Main page, so should be more stable now. I shall shortly begin my review of the body. Edwininlondon (talk) 11:47, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Next batch of comments:

• The Chess Olympiad is a --> link
• Chess Olympic Games --> link to 1st unofficial Chess Olympiad
• The first official edition of the Chess Olympiad --> link to 1st Chess Olympiad
• From then on it has been held biannually --> that typically means twice a year. I would simply say "once every two years"
• took place in Emmen --> add the Netherlands
• simultaneously with an Open tournament --> consider explaining Open
• The bidding procedure for the Chess Olympiad 2024 and the FIDE Congress in connection with bids for the Women's World Cup 2022 and Chess World Cup 2023 was opened in November 2019 --> not sure I can parse this correctly: is this what is meant: "The bidding process for organising both the 45th Chess Olympiad and the coinciding FIDE Congress was opened in November 2019." I would leave the other events out, as it is not very relevant and could cause confusion about those events having to be included in a bid.
• 4.1, 4.2 and 4.3 pertaining to the organising committee, finances, and --> be consistent in your use of comma before and in lists
• There was only one bid to host the Chess Olympiad in Budapest --> Budapest submitted the only bid.
• Hungarian political authorities, chess players as well as prominent members of the Olympic movement and the sports administration have expressed their unconditional support to the event. --> This feels too closely paraphrased from the source: "Political authorities, chess legends, and prominent members of the Hungarian Olympic movement and the sports administration have expressed their unconditional support to the event." And the tense (have expressed) should be turned into simple past tense.
• and the event originally planned for 2024 in Budapest became the 45th Chess Olympiad --> and the event planned for 2024 in Budapest became the 45th Chess Olympiad instead of the 46th.
• signed the contract for the event in Budapest --> ambiguous. I assume it is this: signed the contract in Budapest
• a "green" Olympiad with the possibility of transfers between the venues and the hotels with bicycles and electric vehicles as well as by avoiding paper and plastic --> not sure about that "by" at the end, and adding a bit of punctuation would be helpful
• The event is supported by the Government of Hungary. --> "The Government of Hungary supported the event." Any info how?
• Robert Kapas is --> Robert Kapas was
• Ivan Syrovy is --> van Syrovy was
• The venue for the event was SYMA Sports and Conference Centre, which served as the central location of the event with functions of playing venue, accreditation center, Expo and fan zone area. --> not a particularly elegant construction. I'm not a much better writer myself, but something along the lines of "The event was held at the SYMA Sports and Conference Centre, which, besides the playing hall, also included an accreditation centre and an exposition and fan zone area.
• This facility was built --> I would not make this a new paragraph. Just merge with first sentence.
• VIPs were allowed to carry mobile phones in the specially designated VIP areas where the use of mobile phones in silent mode was permitted. --> bit clumsy phrasing + link VIPs
• what is missing in this Venue or the Fair Play section is the context: cheating with computers or others. Include link to Cheating in chess
• captains --> maybe team captains is clearer
• third players --> what are third players?
• which might have triggered reactions upon discretion of the FPT --> it's cryptic. But whatever it means, I doubt this level of detail is needed in this article
• All games were checked using Kenneth W. Regan's software --> for what? + any source reporting any suspicious games at all?
• Only players competing at the Olympiad --> not the captains?
• At the beginning, the hosts of the ceremony welcomed attendees --> this level of detail feels unnecessary to me. See what else in this section can be removed. Or maybe I should say, see what can be retained. It is a disproportionally long section.
• The event was contested by a total of 197 teams --> the lead says this 197 was in the Open event only, not total of Open and Women combined
• was permitted to field three teams --> in each of the two sections
• FIDE Women's Chess Commission --> is this a different commission? the first one is FIDE Women's Commission
• The Commission --> The commission
• The Commission decided to appoint a care-giver for each child as official members of the national delegations. --> not sure I get this. Did the commission really assign some person to care for a child?
• this programme --> this pilot project
• For the first time at the Chess Olympiads, teams of refugees participated in both sections --> same ambiguity we previously had in the lead
• that would represent the team --> they would represent the refugees, not the team. They are the team.
• after which an additional 30 minutes were granted and an increment --> better punctuation is needed. Perhaps a semicolon after granted (without the and), if you like semicolons
• all teams were paired in every round --> how can that work when there is an odd number of teams?
• Tie-breakers for the table --> no hyphen I believe + link to tiebreaker
• All dates are CEST (UTC+2:00) --> All times are CEST (UTC+2:00)
• The Open event[b] was contested --> rather than here in footnote b, would it not be more logical to move the info about all genders allowed in the Open, move it to the gender equality section?
• World no. 2 --> World number 2
• Nevertheless, the team, theoretically, was rendered weaker due to the absence of the top-ranked American player and second-highest rated player in the world Hikaru Nakamura --> already mentioned this, so remove
• playing on top board followed --> playing on top board, followed
• current world no. one --> current world number one
• Netherlands --> the Netherlands
• The Indian team won the gold in the open event with United States and Uzbekistan winning silver and bronze medals respectively. This was the Indian team's first time winning the gold medal at the Olympiad. --> why is this here and not in the Open summary? That way, you have all the pre-amble together and all the results.

More later, once you have caught up with the above. Edwininlondon (talk) 12:33, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Edwininlondon: I've improved the article in line with your suggestions. I don't think adding Nakamura's comment about So's performance is really necessary. Carlsen's failure to win an individual gold medal seems like navel-gazing, but I still decided to include it in the summary for what it's worth.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 15:12, 7 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm ok with your decisions. All changes look good, except for the bit about Olympiad Best Game prize: The source you have added is just to the game. It needs the Barden source to verify the award. Also, perhaps consider adding that Modi awarded the Indian team players financially, as per Barden's latest column. I'll finish the rest soon. Edwininlondon (talk) 14:49, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've added Barden's source for the game and a sentence on the cash awards.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 09:08, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Final batch of comments on prose:

• The challenger in the World Chess Championship 2024, The challenger in the World Chess Championship 2024, Gukesh Dommaraju of India, achieved --> feels repetitive, as just in the previous paragraph he was introduced as such. Just "Gukesh Dommaraju of India achieved" should suffice
• add a link to Gukesh in the caption
• individual gold medals were also won --> this needs alittle explanation as normally there is only 1 gold, so maybe add something like "on boards two to four"
• bronze medal on board one --> I can see board 1 and board one mixed throughout the article
• US vs. USSR radio chess match 1945 --> the radio chess match between the US and the Soviet Union in 1945
• Final standings table has Arjun, which should be Erigaisi. And Domínguez should be Domínguez Perez.
• On Board 1, the same three competitors received the same medals in back-to-back editions of the Olympiad. --> unsourced
• Georgia, whose team won a silver medal at the previous Olympiad, were the second seeds --> odd way of phrasing .. surely George the team was seeded and not Georgia the country
• and also includes --> past tense
• Ukraine as defending champions --> should mention where they were seeded
• Despite the fact that China --> should mention where they were seeded (I'm guessing 4th, but reader should not have to guess). If it is 4th, they should come before Ukraine
• as pre-tournament top seeds according to the average rating --> this should be mentioned much earlier
• in the tenth rounds --> should that not be singular?
• Individual gold medals were also won --> here as well mention boards
• the teams with the best combined performance in the Open and Women's tournaments (sum of their positions in both standings). It was won by the first team of India --> we can't have teams plural first and then team singular for the open and women team combined
• with an immediate effect. --> I have only heard "with immediate effect", but maybe I'm wrong
• Four candidates entered the election --> this bit seems like too much detail. I would just say who were elected
• educations --> the source says educators
• The winners were announced --> I would cut this whole paragraph on the basis of too much detail
• Raul rose to prominence on the music stage in 2011 when he produced a number of songs and video clips in collaboration with Tamás Horváth, while Rose May debuted as a singer-songwriter in the autumn of 2023 and her first album was released the same year. --> cut, digressing
• a colourful Rubik's cube --> well, the're colourful by definition
• soulful lyrics --> just lyrics
• female empowerment and sorority and produced a music short film --> a comma somewhere would help
• content chess content creators --> ?
• can get an autograph --> could get an autograph
• Official partners for the Olympiad include --> Official partners for the Olympiad included
• Side events --> having just read about all these side events I was surprised to encounter a section called Side events
• intended for general public --> intended for the general public
• best U2000 participants --> what is U2000?
• he FIDE EDU Preparation of Teachers course --> just checking if this is truly different from the EDU event lised under promotion
• with the aim --> repetition of same construct in successive sentences
• in the conference include --> past tense
• Sanctions against Russia and Belarus --> I don't get why this has to be discussed again, and in such great detail.
• that their teams have been --> had been
• for Chess Olympiad --> for the Chess Olympiad
• a short cut --> a shortcut
• detected a SIM card --> add name of person
• nother device was detected in the fourth round --> I would name names in this sentence, otherwise it unnecessarily implicates others
• of the tenth round in the Open event, --> in the tenth round of the Open event
• complained about Israel's participation --> this needs more context (i.e. Israel - Palestine actions)

Apologies for taking so long. Edwininlondon (talk) 20:15, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Jens

• Make sure that all paragraphs (apart from the lead) have inline citations (not the case in "Fair play regulations")
• The section "Kyrgyz proposal to restore full membership" is outdated (the decision has already been made). --Jens Lallensack (talk) 17:20, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Jens Lallensack: Thanks for your comments. I’ve re-arranged the “Fair play regulations” section so that every paragraph is referenced. The decision on the Kyrgyz proposal is mentioned in the “FIDE Congress” section, but it’s good to keep it under “Concerns and controversies” as the proposal was really controversial and raised a lot of concerns that FIDE might lose its affiliation with IOC and that chess federations might lose government funding. I wasn’t sure if the decision should be repeated there. What do you suggest?--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 17:38, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Drive-by comment from Spy-cicle This article seems to imply that territories are their own respective countries which is WP:OR. Entrants like Bermuda, British Virgin Islands, Cayman Islands, Guernsey, Hong Kong, Isle of Man, Jersey, Macau, United States Virgin Islands are not countries. It does in sentences like The ceremony ended with a video tribute to all participating countries, which featured their names and flags shown one after another with songs performed by Kouchak and Vincze in the background. Countries in italics denote those fielding teams in the Open event only. Countries in bold denote those fielding teams in the Women's event only. d it brought together female chess players from 160 countries Among other instances. Could this be fixed? Perhaps with replacing "countries" with "countries and territories" or "team" depending on the sentence.  Spy-cicle💥  ^Talk? 21:56, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Thanks for your comment. It was changed from “countries” to “countries and territories” in The project provided support for preparation of women's teams from nine countries and territories—Liechtenstein, Guernsey, Grenada, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, Saint Kitts and Nevis, the United States Virgin Islands, Saint Lucia, Nauru, and the Cayman Islands—who made their debut in the Women's section. I don’t know if it’s necessary to change it everywhere as “country” is the term used by FIDE (see for instance the country rating list). To avoid ambiguity, we can perhaps use “national team” instead of “country”, which is more aligned with the terminology of the IOC for the Olympic Games (they use “National Olympic Committee”).--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 11:14, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  The term "national team" seems like a good inbetween without being too wordy.  Spy-cicle💥  ^Talk? 22:26, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Coordinator note

This has been open for more than three weeks and has yet to pick up a support. Unless it attracts considerable movement towards a consensus to promote over the next three or four days I am afraid that it is liable to be archived. Gog the Mild (talk) 13:30, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

December 2017 North American winter storm

Nominator(s): ~ Tails Wx 15:07, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hiya! This article regards a historic winter storm across the Southern United States in December 2017, which produced unusual amounts of snowfall across multiple states across the region. Developing from a cooled atmosphere and the resulting effects from cold temperatures and a cold front over Texas on December 5–7, the low-pressure area associated with the winter storm also caused heavy snowfall across the Mid-Atlantic and Northeastern regions of the United States, before moving offshore into The Maritimes and eventually over the Atlantic Ocean as a low-pressure system. After traversing the open waters, the low-pressure system also caused high wind gusts and severe weather across Germany and Switzerland. Overall, this winter storm caused eight fatalities, 45 injuries, and $1.06 million in damage. This article is currently a GA and has passed a GAN on March 31 this year. This is also my first FAC nomination, and am looking forward to any comments or suggestions regarding this article! ~ Tails Wx 15:07, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from TechnoSquirrel69

Drive-by comment: can we do no better for a map than File:Vapor imagery December winter storm 2017.png? It is rather low-quality and has a misleading GIF icon in the corner. Given that the data is in the public domain, I'm sure it's possible to find or even create a better visualization. Good luck on your first FAC! —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 23:03, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yep, got that image switched out and replaced with File:December 2017 winter storm snowfall map SE US.jpg. Thanks, TechnoSquirrel69! ~ Tails Wx 03:05, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

• Suggest scaling up the map

• Some images are missing alt text

• File:Picture_of_snow-covered_Jackson,_Mississippi_from_above_December_2017.jpg is tagged as being under licensing review. Ditto File:Pilot_Mountain,_North_Carolina_December_2017_North_American_winter_storm.jpg. Nikkimaria (talk) 05:01, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Nikkimaria: I did scale up the map a bit; let me know if any further changes are needed for that image in terms of resizing or scaling (courtesy link to that respective section: #Meteorological synopsis). I did add alt text to the remaining images that didn't have them, and for now, I hid the two images and don't plan on changing that until either the licensing review is done or the files are deleted for whatever reason. Thanks! ~ Tails Wx 04:46, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

To clarify, scaling should be done using |upright= in order to respect user preferences - see MOS:IMGSIZE. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:47, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done here - I did set it to 1.6, as a side note. ~ Tails Wx 04:50, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Coordinator note

This has been open for more than three weeks and has yet to pick up a support. Unless it attracts considerable movement towards a consensus to promote over the next three or four days I am afraid that it is liable to be archived. Gog the Mild (talk) 13:30, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Gog the Mild: Any chance this could be added to Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/FAC urgents? ~ Tails Wx 21:00, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Otto Hahn

Nominator(s): Hawkeye7 (discuss) 04:59, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about Otto Hahn, the German chemist who was awarded the 1944 Nobel Prize in Chemistry for the discovery of nuclear fission. Today Hahn is something of a divisive figure. A century ago, there was much less of a distinction between chemistry and physics. Hahn was involved early in the chemistry of radioactive substances. Their presence could be detected from their radioactivity, and their unique half lives. Unfortunately, most of the new elements he discovered turned out to be isotopes, a concept that had not been invented when he began. He also had to deal with a lot of disapproval from more traditional chemists, for whom chemistry involved substances you could see, and smell and taste. Early on he formed a professional relationship with a physicist, Lise Meitner. Among his generation, he was regarded as progressive in his attitudes towards women, even a feminist. But women like Meitner still considered him a male chauvinist pig, and their historians have been much less reticent about publicly calling him one. After World War II, his cause was to resurrect the reputation of German science, which had been tarnished (to say the least) in the Nazi period. In this role, he sought publicity and downplayed uncomfortable truths. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 04:59, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

• File:Otto_Hahn_1970.jpg: where is that licensing coming from?

  Image was donated by the Dutch national archive. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:19, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Is there UTRS or other confirmation of the licensing? Nikkimaria (talk) 04:38, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  See Commons:Nationaal Archief for details. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 05:19, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• File:William_Ramsay.jpg: source link is dead, needs a US tag

  Added URAA and archive link. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:19, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• File:Ernest_Rutherford_1905.jpg: source link is dead

  Dead. Unable to locate in archive. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:19, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Can the licensing be otherwise confirmed? Nikkimaria (talk) 04:38, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• I found the book on the Internet Archive, and can confirm it is on p. 132

• File:Otto_Hahn_und_Lise_Meitner.jpg: what is the author's date of death?

  Not known. Otto Hahn had the negative, and it was published in his memoirs in 1966. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:19, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  In that case tagging will need to be changed. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:38, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• File:Berliner_Physiker_u_Chemiker_1920.jpg: when and where was this first published and what is the author's date of death?

  Not known. Otto Hahn published in his memoirs in 1966, so he had a copy, but other copies exist. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:19, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  In that case tagging will need to be changed. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:38, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• File:Ottohahn1915.jpg: when and where was this first published and what is its status in country of origin?

  Not known when it was published. (Probably Hahn in 1966 again) Donated to Max Planck Society, who released it. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:19, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Released it under what license? Nikkimaria (talk) 04:38, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• File:Otto_Hahn_Nobelpreis_1945-a.jpg needs a US tag

  Not sure what tag applies. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:19, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• File:Edith_and_Otto_Hahn,_1959.jpg: the uploader has a large number of files deleted for copyright-related issues - why are they believed to be able to license this?

  No idea. I can remove it. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:19, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• File:Hahnfch.jpg is tagged as being not PD.

  Not attached to this one either. Under review on Commons and will remove if Commons decides to delete. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:19, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Nikkimaria (talk) 04:58, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

LittleLazyLass

• This is just a flyby, but I really think could do with more organization. Currently it had a whole nineteen major top level sections and zero subsections. A quick look at other FA biographies within the Science and Academia subject area doesn't seem to indicate this is a standard I'm not aware of. Some basic level of consolidation with his scientific advances in one section, personal life in another, and the Nobel Prize could probably make a section with his other honours seems doable and would make a big difference. Failing that even rudimentary sorting the events into subsections by time period would be an improvement of being bombarded with everything separate. LittleLazyLass (Talk | Contributions) 20:33, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You're quite correct; there is no standard. There are 33 featured article biographies of physicists and chemists, of which I brought 23 of them to featured. The article is written in chronological order and follows the layout guideline in Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Layout. I will consider your proposal. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:29, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

HF

I'll try to review this soon. Hog Farm _Talk 13:34, 7 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• " "The Open Door Web Site : Chemistry : Visual Chemistry : Protactinium". Archived from the original on 16 December 2022. Retrieved 16 December 2022." - what makes this a high-quality RS? I would expect that it should be not overly difficult to find a better source for something as basic as what this is supporting

  Deleted. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 04:24, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• ""Entdeckung der Kernspaltung 1938, Versuchsaufbau, Deutsches Museum München | Faszination Museum". YouTube. 7 July 2015." - what makes this YouTube video a high-quality reliable source?

  Deleted. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 04:24, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• "Originalgeräte zur Entdeckung der Kernspaltung, "Hahn-Meitner-Straßmann-Tisch"". - citation needs the publisher and any other information added

  Added publisher and access date

• ""Father of Nuclear Chemistry – Otto Emil Hahn". Kemicalinfo. 20 May 2020." - what makes this a high-quality RS?

  Deleted. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 04:24, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• " Brown, Brandon R. (16 May 2015). "Gerard Kuiper's Daring Rescue of Max Planck at the End of World War II". Scientific American Blog Network. Retrieved 27 June 2020." - Scientific American is a decent source, but can we give their blog network the same level of quality?

  Brandon R. Brown is professor of physics and astronomy at the University of San Francisco. He is the author of Planck: Driven by Vision, Broken by War (Oxford, 2015), which won the 2016 Housatonic Award for nonfiction. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 04:24, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• " "NS Otto Hahn". Germany's Nuclear Powered Cargo Ship. Retrieved 28 June 2020." - what makes this a high-quality RS? And "Germany's Nuclear Powered Cargo Ship" is not the publisher in this source

  It was the source used by the article on the ship. Switched to a couple of other sources. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 04:24, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Is it really on-topic to list all of the physicists that Meitner became friends with in an article on Hahn? That content seems more suited for our article on Meitner

  Deleted. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 04:24, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Link phosgene?

  Linked

Will continue this; hopefully tomorrow. Hog Farm _Talk 02:43, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Needs a link or gloss for "tantalum group"

  Linked to Refractory metals Hawkeye7 (discuss) 02:38, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Link pitchblende?

  Linked. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 02:38, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• "This set up is on display in the [[]]." - something is wrong with this in the caption

  Fixed. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 02:38, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I anticipate supporting, but want to give this another read-through first. Hog Farm _Talk 02:22, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Source review

I am working on this now. Dugan Murphy (talk) 20:10, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Here are some initial comments:

• Given the criterium that states a featured article should be "a thorough and representative survey of the relevant literature", why include a separate list of further reading?

  There are two groups of books here. One group were added as sources in 2007, but without inline references or page numbers. I moved them to the Further reading section when I created it in 2020. All were from the 1960s and 1970s and I preferred more recent sources due to the scholarship that has been going on since then. Two books were added directly to the Further reading by another editor in 2020. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:04, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Do you feel that the cited sources present a thorough and representative survey of the relevant literature without using any of these? Dugan Murphy (talk) 02:32, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Yes, I believe so. However, I have prioritised more recent scholarship over works from the 1960s and 1970s. Hence, the preference for Hoffmann Otto Hahn: Achievement and Responsibility (2001) over Berninger, Otto Hahn 1879–1968 (1970) and Macrakis, Surviving the Swastika: Scientific Research in Nazi Germany (1993) over Beyerchen, Scientists under Hitler (1977). Hawkeye7 (discuss) 18:36, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Looking up Otto Hahn and the Rise of Nuclear Physics on WorldCat and Google Books, it doesn't appear to be a multivolume set. However, both the Badash and Berninger entries in the source list say those chapters appear in volume 22.

  It is volume 22 in the The University of Western Ontario Series in the Philosophy of Science [4]. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:04, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Bernstein: "Recordings" could be capitalized.

  Capitalised. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:04, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Wikilink Physics Today?

  I have not linked any journal names in the footnotes. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:04, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Crawford 2000: I think "Against" should be capitalized.

  The sources do no agree. [5][6]

  MOS:5LETTER says prepositions of 5 letters or more should be capitalized and I think that is the determinant here. Dugan Murphy (talk) 02:32, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  I learn something new every day. I wasn't aware of that 2017 addition to the MOS. Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 18:36, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Wikilink Historical Studies in the Physical and Biological Sciences?

  I have not linked any journal names in the footnotes. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:04, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Hahn 1988: change the hypehn to an endash.

  Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:04, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'll keep looking and leave more comments later. Dugan Murphy (talk) 21:30, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I replied to a couple items above; otherwise, I consider those initial comments addressed. I'll have more fresh comments later. Dugan Murphy (talk) 02:32, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I see my comments above are all satisfactorily addressed. Here are a few more:

• Hoffman 2001: Add the publication place (NYC).

  Added. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 03:03, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Wikilink Max Planck Society?

  Already linked. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 03:03, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  I'm looking at citation number 33, so actually the Wikilink should probably go to Max-Planck-Gesellschaft, which redirects to the MPS article. I think it's worth adding the Wikilink to the citation so the reader can more easily verify that the source is reliable. Dugan Murphy (talk) 20:21, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  The citation style is not to link publishers. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:22, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Stolz: Add publication place.

  Added. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 03:03, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• In the References list, I'm seeing an autobiography, a book by Hahn's son, and works by a few other people like Frisch who appear to be Hahn's contemporaries. That tells me those sources are closer to being less reliable for how close they are to the subject, as opposed to, say, a work by a 21st-century scholar. What makes them appropriate for this article?

  There is no book by his son; Dietrich Hahn [de] was his grandson. This is noted in the article. He was only editing Hahn's papers. Wikilinked. Frisch wasn't really a contemporary; he was a generation younger, being Meitner's nephew. He is quoted twice: once for his own contribution to the physics of the discovery of fission, and once for his obituary of Hahn. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 03:03, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Aside from Dietrich Hahn, I'm looking at books by Otto Frisch and Walther Gerlach. What are your thoughts on their appropriateness as sources given their relationship to the subject? Dugan Murphy (talk) 01:41, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Gerlach seems fine to me. Scientific biographies are often written by a fellow scientist with an acquaintance of the subject. See the Biographical Memoirs of Fellows of the Royal Society, where each bio is written by another Fellow. No reason to consider Gerlach's works to be unreliable. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 02:51, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  What about Frisch? Dugan Murphy (talk) 20:12, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  I answered this above; Frisch is quoted twice: once for his own contribution to the physics of the discovery of fission, and for his own tribute to Hahn, as someone who knew him well. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:16, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Hughes 2008: Can you get more specific with the pages? Also, The url and DOI number don't go anywhere helpful. Perhaps the HDI link could be the main url. Or the pdf link. Also, I can't find that December 29, 2008 date anywhere. What I do see seems to indicate that volume 29 is 2009.

  DOI works fine for me. Changed date to "2009". Hawkeye7 (discuss) 03:03, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• The Daily Telegraph 18 March 1905: I recommend using Template:Cite news to reformat this. It would be helpful to add the article title, author if known, &c. Is there a link to view it online?

  I don't have access to an online version the newspaper. Used template. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 03:03, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Now the title just needs capitalization. Dugan Murphy (talk) 01:41, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Capitalised. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 02:51, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Dictionary of Art Historians: Add Lee Sorensen as the author.

  Added. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 03:03, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'll continue looking at the sources and more comments later. Dugan Murphy (talk) 01:42, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Having finally gone through the rest of the citations, here are some more comments:

• Citation 40: Wikilink Lise Meitner for consistency and to help readers.
• Scerri: If this is a chapter in a book, add page numbers for the chapter and page number for the part that supports the relevant claim in the article. Also add the publisher and location of publication. I also think it is worth writing out the whole title, for the benefit of the reader: The Periodic Table: Its Story and Its Significance.
• For consistency, add the language tag to the second instance of Meitner 1918 citation.
• The two "Nomination Database" citations: The website uses the term "Nomination Archive", so I think the citations should too. Where does the 9 June 2020 publication date come from?
• PubChem: I think "PubChem" should be used for the website parameter and "National Library of Medicine" for the publisher parameter. I also think it is worth Wikilinking both names.
• Not a source review comment: Hahn was now confident enough that he had found something that he named his new isotope "uranium Z", and in February 1921, he published the first report on his discovery. The first "that" is unnecessary.
• Hahn 1923: why is Hahn's name written twice?
• Feather Bretscher Appleton 1938: Could you get more specific with the page number?
• "Max Planck becomes President of the KWS" should be "Max Planck Becomes President of the KWS".
• "The KWS introduces the 'Führerprinzip'" should be "The KWS Introduces the 'Führerprinzip'"
• "Originalgeräte zur Entdeckung der Kernspaltung, "Hahn-Meitner-Straßmann-Tisch"" should be "Originalgeräte zur Entdeckung der Kernspaltung, 'Hahn-Meitner-Straßmann-Tisch'" per MOS:QWQ
• Sime 2010: capitalize the first "the"
• Sime 2010: could you get more specific with the page number(s) being referenced?
• Fergusson 2011: same.
• Hahn Meitner Strassmann 9 June 1937: same.
• Frisch Feb 1939: capitalize "Under".
• Hahn Strassman Feb 1939: add language parameter
• The same website is variably cited as "Nobel Media AB", "Nobel Foundation", and "NobelPrize.org". You should standardize that. Also, it is Wikilinked in one of those instances, if if that isn't being done elsewhere, it shouldn't be done once.
• "Statutes of the Nobel Foundation": where does the 2018 publication date come from?
• "The end of the war and transition. Max Planck is Interim President of the KWS" needs capitalization for "end", "war", and "transition".
• Citation 137 is "Macrakis 1993, pp. 189–189": should that be just 189 or should one of the two 189s not be 189?
• "The birth of the Max Planck Society": capitalize "birth".
• "The founding of today's Max Planck Society": capitalize "founding" and "today's".
• "NATO chief backs Germany's vow to keep war-ready US nukes": capitalize everything but "to" and italicize Defence News.
• "Preparing earth constitution": Capitalize the title.
• "Preparing earth constitution": The title seems to be just "Preparing earth constitution", so "| Global Strategies & Solutions | The Encyclopedia of World Problems" doesn't appear to be part of that title.
• "Preparing earth constitution": I think "The Encyclopedia of World Problems" is the title of the website and "Union of International Associations (UIA)" is the publisher. Right now, "The Encyclopedia of World Problems | Union of International Associations (UIA)" is written out as the website title.
• The www.friedhofguide.de link is broken. Got an archive link? And what makes this website a reliable source?
• If I'm reading this right, the obit written by the Max Planck Society is claimed to have been published in "all the major newspapers in Germany, Austria, and Switzerland" and that claim is backed up by citing 5 newspapers in those 3 countries. Do you have a reliable source that says which newspapers were "all the major newspapers" in those countries at that time? Also, for consistency, this citation should be broken into separate citations using the Cite News template.
• Strassman 1968: add publication place.
• Fischer 1999: unlink Focus to be consistent and add a volume number.
• "U. S. Department of Energy" should be "U.S. Department of Energy".
• "NS Otto Hahn - the first German nuclear ship" should be "NS Otto Hahn - The First German Nuclear Ship".
• The planetarynames.wr.usgs.gov link is broken. Got an archive link? Also, both uses of "crater" should be capitalized, unless that's a typo.
• The minorplanetcenter.net link is broken. Got an archive link?
• Is "e.V." really part of the name "Gesellschaft Deutscher Chemiker e.V."?
• "Otto Hahn Medal": I think it is worth writing out the whole title "The Otto Hahn Medal - An Incentive for Young Scientists".
• "Otto Hahn Medal": Why is this citation written out twice in a row (citations 182 and 183)?

Summary: Everything in the References list are books held by academic libraries or articles in academic journals. Everything in the "notes" section looks reliable and primary sources are used appropriately, with the exceptions noted in individual comments above. There are a lot of works from Hahn's lifetime by people in his life, which makes me wary, but I'm willing to accept the reasoning you stated above in reply to one of my earlier comments on that topic. There certainly is a wide breadth of sources included here. With the exception of a few cases addressed in my above comments, the citations are consistently formatted. This article represents a lot of work and I can appreciate it. Dugan Murphy (talk) 01:46, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Matarisvan

Hi Hawkeye7, my comments:

• "the post-war West Germany": remove the "the"?

  Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:13, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• "educated at Klinger Oberrealschule": "educated at the Klinger Oberrealschule"?

  Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:13, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Link through ILL to Wilhelm Muthmann?

  Linked. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:13, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• "(In fact, it was an isotope ... the British chemist Frederick Soddy)": Remove the brackets?

  removed. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:13, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• "that he rubbed then against the sleeves of his suit": do we mean "that he then rubbed against the sleeves of his suit"?

  Deleted "then". Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:13, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• "100 marks a milligram", 5,000 marks; 66,000 marks: If possible, add the inflation template?

  During the review of Lise Meitner, I discovered that this could be done. Pretty amazing really, since the currency has changed three times since then, and there was a period of hyperinflation. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:13, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Link to Leverkusen?

  Linked. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:13, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Translate "Die Muttersubstanz des Actiniums; ein neues radioaktives Element von langer Lebensdauer" in the body?

  Translated as ""The Parent Substance of Actinium; A New Radioactive Element with a Long Lifetime" Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:13, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• "protoactinmium": Extra m and o in there.

  Deleted the extra "m"; the extra "o" is deliberate. Hawkeye7 (discuss)

More to come tomorrow. Cheers Matarisvan (talk) 17:58, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Hawkeye7, my next set of comments:

• Link to uranium-234?
• Link to Cornell University Press in the body?
• Why did Planck order the expediting of the shipment to Freundlich?
• Link through ILL to Ernst Telschow?
• "While Hahn was in North America": What month and year?
• Link to the Zeitschrift für Physik and the Chemische Berichte?
• Link to Werner Heisenberg?
• Could we also add the inflation template for the 12 million and 47 million marks?
• Link to Lawrence Badash in the body and biblio?
• Link to the University of Frankfurt?
• Link to Dubna?
• Do we have ISBNs or archive.org links available for Hahn's four books? If so, consider adding to the "Publications in English" section?
• Add URLs for refs #6, #164, #165, Yruma 2008?
• Add translated titles for refs #49, #50, #73, #74, #75, #99, #165, #168, #170, #177, #184, Gerlach & Hahn 1984, Hahn 1988, Sime 2004, Stolz 1989?
• Add the language parameter for refs #49, #50, #99, #165, #184?
• Link to Jeff Hughes (historian) and Kristie Macrakis?
• Add ISBNs or other identifiers for Feldman & Ford 1979 and Kant 2002?
• Could we add the WPMH tag? The biography is notable enough for MILHIST since Hahn did work on the German chemical and nuclear weapons programs.

That's all from me. Cheers Matarisvan (talk) 10:40, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Nihilism (Alexander McQueen collection)

Nominator(s): ♠PMC♠ (talk) 16:05, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Following the disastrous loss of the entire Taxi Driver collection to, er, negligence, McQueen was still uncertain about launching his own label. After some dithering, he gathered up every odd and end he'd created since then and put them together in the primal scream that was Nihilism. Not yet capable of the sweeping narratives that would characterise his later career, and on a budget of approximately zero, he went for pure shock tactics. Models smeared in filth and fake blood stalked down the runway, wrapped in cling film, breasts and genitals flashing. The audience was struck dumb and even photographers quit snapping, aghast at the sight. Reviews were mixed, with many accusing McQueen of misogyny while others recognized the burgeoning talent beneath the gore. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 16:05, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Image review - pass

Hi ♠PMC♠, happy to do the image review. The article contains the following images:

• https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki//File:Nihilism_from_Alexander_McQueen_Savage_Beauty.jpg
• https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki//File:Logo_of_Alexander_McQueen.svg
• https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki//File:People_queueing_to_get_into_Blue_Bird,_Kings_Road_(geograph_4104023).jpg

The logo is in public domain per https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki//Commons:Threshold_of_originality. The other two images are licensed under CC BY 2.0 and CC BY-SA 2.0. All images have captions and alt texts. They are relevant to the article and placed at appropriate locations. The description on the wiki commons page of "File:Nihilism from Alexander McQueen Savage Beauty.jpg" should be updated: it listed 5 items but the image is a cropped version that only shows one item. I'm confused since the wiki commons description says "Savage Beauty exhibition, 2011" but our caption says "2015 staging". The file was uploaded in 2011 so that date is probably correct. Phlsph7 (talk) 17:32, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Hi Phlsph7, thanks for the image review! I've fixed the description for the Nihilism jacket and the caption. I think I'm just so used to images being from the 2015 staging that I forgot to double check. Cheers! ♠PMC♠ (talk) 17:46, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Thanks for the changes, that takes care of all the concerns. Phlsph7 (talk) 08:14, 21 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Generalissima

I looked through the prose and sources during the GAN review. I think a secondary source review is in order for FAC, but I can definitely Support on prose here; this is an extremely solid and thorough article. I noticed a couple cites were out of order, so I went ahead and fixed those. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 15:49, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Airship

As always, suggestions not demands, etc. etc.

• Only one clothing-related image is annoyingly little. Some of your other McQueen FAs have images illustrating inspirations or resemblances; is that not possible here? Or you could argue for fair use for an image from the show, like the one on Watt 2012 p. 60. Would really help people like myself.
  • Yeah, the lack of images for early McQueen is very frustrating. It's early enough that a lot of it isn't uploaded online, and what is is so rare that people aren't willing to free license it. (Or they've abandoned whatever Flickr account and aren't responding to comments). I think you're right in saying a fair use runway one could be justified, I've added one from Fairer's book.
• "Quest for Fire (1981), famous 18th century" shouldn't there be a "the" before famous?
  • There should and now there is :)
• "There was a degree of primitivism" slightly unfocused phrasing, maybe "it featured" or similar?
  • Added
• When you say "beetle blood", does it literally mean the blood of beetles? How many beetles do you need to squish to get a usable amount of blood? Also, link shellac?
  • Huh! You know, I think that must have been a typo in the original book that I just blindly replicated without really thinking about it. I've removed the whole quote rather than worry about it, and wound up reorganizing the whole section a little because it was getting on my nerves.
• The fourth paragraph of "Runway show" feels like it belongs in the previous subsection, and indeed duplicates some content from its last paragraph.
  • It is a little repetitive, but the distinction is in the clothing in itself vs in the way the models were presented on the runway. I've made some changes that hopefully make it more distinct:
    • revised the opening to remove the duplicative wording
    • moved the cling film sentence and the androgynous model sentences into this para to beef it up a little
    • reordered the paragraph to flow with the opening sentence, so we move from the wet t-shirt effect (thin fabric) to the revealing silhouettes, which hopefully makes the logic clearer
• "Many models were wrapped in cling film because McQueen and Niland realised at the last minute that there was no budget to purchase underwear for them." How does cling film ... help?
  • Ahahaha, I wondered about that myself. It's hard to see in the videos of the runway show, and they don't go into more detail in that source, so I'm guessing here, but I think... picture wrapping something a bunch of times, untidily so the plastic crinkles up a bit. It doesn't become completely opaque, but it obscures what's underneath. They weren't hugely worried about being modest.
• "She wrote: "Themes of anxiety and distress continue to be combined with a latent sexuality in his work."" little confused about the tenses
  • Arnold was writing in 1999 when McQueen was still active, so for her it was the present tense. I've expanded a bit though because I think I wasn't as clear about her point as I could have been
• "Press coverage continued to be mostly appalled" for how long? did it ever stop?
  • Oop, this was intended as a continuation of the prev sentence about the next few collections. I've combined the sentences; they shared a ref anyway.
    McQueen's relationship with the press was always messy. For his early career, reviews almost always boiled down to something like "he's talented, but he should stop being so fucked-up". That persisted until roughly Joan, where he got into performance art and the press started declaring that he'd ~matured~. The "talented but fucked-up" response was no longer the default, but it resurfaced whenever he got up to Antics™, which was pretty often throughout the rest of his career, up to and including his last collection in life.

Very tight article. Nice work. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 11:24, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Thanks for the comments, AirshipJungleman29, I think I've finally addressed everything. Let me know if you have further thoughts. Cheers! ♠PMC♠ (talk) 22:00, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 00:06, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Aoba47

• I am uncertain about this part from the lead, (in March 1993 London). I have not seen the month and year used as a descriptor before, and while I understand it makes the prose more concise, it does strike me as a bit odd. It could just be me though.
  • Not just you at all, it's a typo that snuck through GA. Good catch :)
• When referencing the locusts in the lead, I think it would be best to clarify that they were dead, just to specify to readers who may be uncertain if they were even real in the first place or somehow were alive.
  • Done
• I think a cellophane link would be helpful, especially since other materials, such as chiffon, latex, and plastic wrap, are linked.
  • Also done
• Why is The 120 Days of Sodom described as "famous" while Quest for Fire and National Geographic are not? I would understand the inclusion if there was a focus on how well-known The 120 Days of Sodom is, but that does not appear to be the case so in my opinion, it sticks out as unnecessary and could be removed without losing any meaning.
  • Hmm fair enough, removed
• In the "Collection" subsection, latex is linked twice.
  • Oop, yes
• There is a bit of a tense issue in the "Production details" subsection for the parts on Niland. There is an instance of the present tense with "recalls" and it then shifts to the past tense with "described". Most of the prose is in past tense so this could have just been a typo or something missed during writing and revision.
  • I somehow manage to do this at least once per article, thanks for catching it.
• I am guessing that this information is not available, but do we know why the show started 30 minutes late?
  • It doesn't say in this case

I hope that these comments are helpful. Once everything has been addressed, I will read through the article a few more times, but I highly doubt that I will find anything further. Wonderful work as always, and good luck with the FAC! Aoba47 (talk) 19:44, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Hello Aoba47, thanks as always for your comments and compliments! I've made the changes. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 01:23, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thank you for addressing everything. I support the FAC for promotion based on the prose. I hope you have a great weekend! Aoba47 (talk) 19:20, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Source review

To follow - SchroCat (talk) 09:14, 13 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• FN 3 – should be pp, not p
• FN 54 should be p, not pp

Otherwise, all sources are reliable and appropriate, the formatting consistent and in line with recommended guidelines and practice. I've run some additional searches, and no higher standard of source came out; no additional information or aspects for examination were located. - SchroCat (talk) 10:39, 13 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

SC prose review

• "which at the time had": I'm not sure you need "at the time": it's all in the past tense anyway
• "Many accused McQueen of misogyny, a characterisation to which he consistently objected": I think you may need to expand this slightly. "Many accused McQueen of misogyny" is referring solely to this one-off event "he consistently objected" relates to an ongoing rejection from McQueen. I think you just need to add something about the accusation being repeated after other shows for 'consistently' to work. (Ditto in the reception section – although as you repeat this in the Analysis section, I'm not sure the reference in the Reception section is needed)
• I hope these help - SchroCat (talk) 15:20, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Robert Poore

Nominator(s): AA (talk) 10:35, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about the Anglo-Irish sportsman and military officer Robert Poore. Hailing from an Ango-Irish family of some standing, he was a prolific first-class cricketer who, interestingly, played Test cricket for South Africa. Mostly associated at first-class level with Hampshire, he was known for his outstanding 1899 season when, between June and August he was the highest first-class run-scorer in England and averaged 116.58. In that time he made 304 against Somerset, which was the highest individual first-class score for Hampshire until it was surpassed by Dick Moore's 316 in 1937. His average in 21 innings across the season was 91.23, which was a record average for an English season, that was not broken until Don Bradman averaged 98.66 in 1930, and not surpassed by an English batsman until Herbert Sutcliffe averaged 96.96 in 1931. He was a multi-talented sportsman, having success in polo, tennis, racquets, squash, and was the best-man-at-arms in several of the British Armed Forces Royal Tournaments. He had a long and distinguished career in the British Army, serving in the Second Boer War and WW1 amongst others, and ending his career as a brigadier-general. The article has been reviewed by WP:CRIC members, who have made suggestions. As a sidenote, I don't think we have any Irish cricketers at FA! AA (talk) 10:35, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

UC

Because it's come up in an article I'm working on at the moment -- the militia wasn't, technically, part of the British Army, but a separate institution (unlike its successors, the TA and the Army Reserve). UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 15:37, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@UndercoverClassicist: Weren't they amalgamated with the British Army sometime around 1906? AA (talk) 08:21, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes -- reading more carefully, I think you've threaded this needle fine: you have been clear about the distinction between militia and regular service. Might be worth checking whether the militia of the Wiltshire Regiment is accurate, or whether it was a militia battalion under the command of the Wiltshires (but not part of them) -- for example, the Bucks Rifle Volunteers were under the command of the Oxford Light Infantry, but didn't wear the cap badge and were rather protective of their separate identity. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 09:40, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@UndercoverClassicist I've made a slight amendment in the article, linking to the 3rd (Royal Wiltshire Militia) Battalion in both the lede and "Military career" section. AA (talk) 09:37, 21 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think the change has gone slightly the wrong way, unfortunately: if he joined up in 1883, that's before the creation of the TA in 1908, so he would have been part of the Volunteer Force, rather than the British Army, until 1886. That's compatible with the body but not the lead. Being even more picky, in the British military, terms like "3rd (RWM) Battalion" don't make sense without an attached regiment, so you need "of the Wiltshire Regiment". UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 16:21, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Poore began his military service in the Volunteer Force with the 3rd (Royal Wiltshire Militia) Battalion of the Wiltshire Regiment in 1883, before gaining a regular commission in the British Army in 1886." And reads along the same lines in the "Military career" section. Does that make more sense?! AA (talk) 16:47, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, that works perfectly. As the Volunteers were (very) part-time, most people who served in them would have either had a day job or been so aristocratic as to not need one: I wonder if we know what else he was doing for those few years? UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 06:30, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'll see what I can find out! Thanks again :) AA (talk) 20:41, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Have had a further look and it appears to be a rather quiet (or unwritten) period of his life. The family were very wealthy, so I wonder if he had need to work? AA (talk) 19:51, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

OK, trying to do a proper review: may be a bit fragmentary:

• A couple of sources are to Who's Who, which has its issues (see WP:WHOSWHO). This one in particular might be a problem: he was a first-rate swordsman, and polo, tennis, racquets, squash, and shot player.
  • Done. I have removed this source entirely. AA (talk) 22:48, 5 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• On that note: what's a shot player?
  • Comment. Seems the source is referring to him as being a good shooter. I do have a source to back this up, but I can't access it fully (appears in the UK there isn't a digital copy available). It's in Breaker Morant: The Final Roundup. AA (talk) 15:35, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • So "marksman" or similar? I'd normally understand "he was a good shot player" to mean that he was a skilled batsman, especially in a cricketer's article. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 20:14, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      • Done. I have changed it to "marksman". AA (talk) 22:48, 5 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Use an endash, not an emdash, in date ranges (MOS:RANGE)
  • Done. AA (talk) 15:35, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• I find the first paragraph of the lead a little confusing: we get a run of statistics, which are all at different levels (a number of test matches, a run rate in county cricket, a record for a particular county). I wonder if it would be better (and clearer) reworked to focus more on the overall narrative and less on the minutiae, which can be left to the body.
  • Comment. @UndercoverClassicist:. I have removed the minutiae and included his wider sporting endeavours. How does it read now? AA (talk) 12:45, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Reads much better to me. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 12:54, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• he commanded the Jhansi Brigade of the British Indian Army with the rank of brigadier-general: advise a cut here, as this was/is the normal rank to command a brigade.
  • Done. I have removed this and linked "brigadier-general" later on when referencing his honorary rank upon retirement. AA (talk) 22:50, 5 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• I find the lack of dates in the second lead paragraph to demand rather a lot of the reader's historical knowledge.
  • Done. I have added some dates to address this. AA (talk) 22:48, 5 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Juliana Poore née Lowry-Corry: see MOS:NEE
  • Done. Née template added. AA (talk) 16:09, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Lowry-Corry, (daughter of: rogue comma here.
  • Done. Removed! AA (talk) 16:09, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• "Junior" is normally capitalised in names, isn't it?
  • Done. It is indeed! AA (talk) 16:09, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Poore joined the Volunteer Force as a lieutenant : is this definitely accurate? Officers normally joined at the rank of second lieutenant (which is one down), sometimes named as ensign.
  • Comment. I did wonder the same myself, but the earliest reference to him is in the London Gazette on 14th August 1883 (here), where he is commissioned as a lieutenant. AA (talk) 16:09, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • Hm -- yes, that does seem to be what's going on (looking at the note above about the HAC, I wonder whether this was a period where -- for whatever reason -- parts of the army weren't bothering with 2Lts: the rank hadn't been around very long in any guise). Strictly speaking, though, the Gazette doesn't demonstrate that he joined the Volunteers on that date -- he could have been serving before he became a lieutenant. I see the Gent. suffix, which probably indicates that he was a civilian, but we'd need another source to confirm that. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 20:14, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The rank of second lieutenant (introduced in 1877) was abolished in 1881 and reintroduced in 1887. All new officers in the period (and existing officers of second lieutenant rank) were granted the rank of lieutenant. If you want a citation its covered on page 271 of Roper, Michael (1998). The Records of the War Office and Related Departments, 1660-1964. Public Record Office. ISBN 978-1-873162-45-3. - Dumelow (talk) 00:08, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• South Africa, where he served in the Second Matabele War in Rhodesia: Rhodesia wasn't in South Africa (with the capitals).
  • Done. I have inserted "in neighbouring" into the sentence. AA (talk) 09:11, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• before being promoted two years later to brevet major in May 1898.: would cut two years later: we don't need to say it twice.
  • Done I have removed it. AA (talk) 22:48, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• I would explain what a provost marshal is in the text. Was he the provost marshal for all of South Africa?
  • Done. I have briefly explained what it entailed and who he was responsible to. Hope that part makes sense! AA (talk) 22:48, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• and was mentioned in despatches in March 1900, to which the commander-in-chief, Lord Roberts: not the right preposition. I think it would be wise to take another swing at this section, cutting the long sentence down a few times.
  • Done. I have shortened to include the important snippets. AA (talk) 22:48, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• He was particularly active on the frontlines in the early years of the conflict: this seems needlessly ambiguous: did he later become particularly active in other parts of the conflict, or particularly lazy on the frontlines?
  • Done. I have removed entirely to eradicate any ambiguity. AA (talk)
• where he was present at the Battles...: an odd way of saying it: this seems to imply that he didn't do very much?
  • Done. You're right, it does imply that. I have reworded to remove any ambiguity that he was a bystander. AA (talk) 22:48, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• with his diary including contemporary notes on their war crimes case: there are a few of these with phrases throughout. In general, they're best avoided: they usually become either or both of clunky and unclear. Suggest "his diary includes...". Also, hyphenate "war-crimes case" as a compound modifier.
  • Done. Hopefully this is now more succinct and less clumsy? AA (talk) 22:34, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• He returned home aboard the SS Canada in 1902, but would return there on military service until his final departure in 1905: return where?
  • Done. I have made it clear he returned to South Africa. AA (talk) 22:01, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• he was promoted to colonel in June 1915, and commanded the Jhansi Brigade in the British Indian Army for the remainder of the war, for which he was made a temporary brigadier-general: do I read right that he was promoted in June 1915, then immediately reassigned and promoted again?
  • Done. @UndercoverClassicist: I have found a source which puts his appointment as commander as August 1915. AA (talk) 22:58, 5 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Nice one. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 06:58, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Poore was not initially overly enamoured with cricket, which he had learnt not through classical coaching but the perusal of textbooks, reputedly chiefly from the Badminton Volume of Cricket (1888); it was not until he visited India as a subaltern with the 7th Hussars that he realised his love for cricket: lots of positives phrased as negatives here: I'm not sure the density of them is good either for clarity or for style.
  • Comment. @UndercoverClassicist:. I have reworded this sentence; does it sound more positive? AA (talk) 23:09, 5 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Yes, it looks good. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 06:58, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Styling his game on W. G. Grace,: on that of Grace, surely, unless his game was bearded and medically qualified?
  • Done. Amended. AA (talk) 22:48, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• "called up" and "called off" are not generally hyphenated (but the noun call-up is).
  • Done. Fixed! AA (talk) 22:09, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• as being "a remarkable feat of physical endurance", on what was "a sweltering July day".: more concise simply as as "a remarkable feat of physical endurance" on "a sweltering July day"?
  • Done. This reads much better :) AA (talk) 22:01, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Had Poore met with success in these, he would likely have played Test cricket for England in the latter half of their series against Australia, but no Test cap for England was forthcoming: we've buried the lead here: presumably, he didn't play very well?
  • Comment. He didn't particularly shine in the Gentlemen v Players fixtures, which were often used to choose the Test team for forthcoming matches. AA (talk) 23:21, 5 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• he made two final appearances in first-class cricket for the Europeans cricket team,: I'm not sure we need cricket team here, as they've been introduced further up. We haven't done it for the Parsees, who have a similarly ambiguous name.
  • Done. "Cricket team" has been removed from the sentence. AA (talk) 21:44, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Up until his final years, he ran a cricket school which encouraged the development of young cricketers: I might be missing something, but what else would we expect a cricket school to do?
  • Done. Yep, you're right, too wordy and stating the obvious! Would appear the school was based in Bournemouth, so have added this. AA (talk) 21:44, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Cricket was not the only field in which his sporting talents : it's good practice to restate the name in a new paragraph or section.
  • Done. AA (talk) 21:44, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• MOS:BIO discourages adding people's dates after their names; if someone's age or date of death is important, state it in prose.
  • Done. I have removed the dates. AA (talk) 22:48, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Poore's sister Nina Mary Benita Poore (1878–1951), married her brother's brother-in-law: this took me a while. Poore's brother-in-law -- this is the Duke, right?
  • Done. That's right! I have made that sentence more succinct. AA (talk) 22:12, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• and was also a justice of the peace for the county: JPs don't generally cover a whole county; they sit at particular courts within a county.
  • Done. I have reworded as I can't find which court(s) he sat at. AA (talk) 21:44, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• a memorial was erected to his memory at Salisbury Cathedral.: as with the cricket school: is there any other sort of memorial? Simply "to him", I think.
  • Done. Have reworded this section. AA (talk) 21:44, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• he seems to stand for the Eccentric Ideal: I don't really see, from the article, where this would have come from. What did Cooper see in him that was so eccentric?
• Why does Stern come before Lonsdale in the bibliography (and Lonsdale come in two different places)?
  • @UndercoverClassicist: Should these be in alphabetical order and not ordered by the position in which they appear in the article? AA (talk) 21:11, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  The usual mantra around here is "any consistent system is fine", though purely personally, I've never seen a published work order its bibliography by the order of citation in the text. Given that it's a distinct system, I don't think many readers will pick that up, so it will look "wrong" to most of them, and I can't see a utility improvement to compensate. Most style guides go for alphabetical order, sometimes subdividing by source type if it's felt appropriate (for instance, separating out primary sources, like newspapers, from academic sources). UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 21:26, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Done. I have reordered it and gone for alphabetical order :) AA (talk) 09:11, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Why isn't Warner in the bibliography at all?
  • Done. Added to bibliography. AA (talk) 21:11, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• He was initially privately educated, before attending Cheam School in England: wasn't Cheam a private school? It certainly is today, and from looking at its Wikipedia article, it wasn't exactly an egalitarian place.
  • Done. I have worded this so that it now makes it clear he was home educated before attending Cheam. AA (talk) 21:11, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Nice work -- as usual, lots of pedantry here and, due to my lack of expertise on the subject, mostly quibbles about style and MoS. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 20:55, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• @UndercoverClassicist: hopefully get round to addressing the remaining suggestions in the next few days, long days at work slowing me down a little! AA (talk) 09:11, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • @UndercoverClassicist:, I think that's all your comments addressed. Let me know if I've missed anything :) AA (talk) 13:39, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • Looks good. Another small batch from a second reading:

• Not sure about the name "Royal Navy and Military Tournaments" -- is that definitely right? I generally see it referred to simply as the "Royal Tournament", and very occasionally as the "Naval and Military Tournament".
  • @UndercoverClassicist: I actually misread it in the source (ref 7) as saying "Royal Navy and Military Tournaments", but it is "Naval". The "Royal" prefix is still used by the reference (his Times obituary), do you think they have simply elongated the name? AA (talk) 19:31, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    I'm not sure it was the "proper" name, but if it's in a contemporary HQRS, that's enough for me to say it's an acceptable way to call it. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 20:05, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• From there, he transferred to the 7th Hussars in the same year and would shortly thereafter serve: better to keep the tense straight: shortly after served...
  • Done. I have used "shortly after served". AA (talk) 19:26, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• army headquarters South Africa: that's a proper noun, so Army Headquarters South Africa (possibly with a comma in the middle) -- unless it's not the official name, in which case we need something like "the British Army's headquarters in South Africa".
  • Comment. His appointment as provost came under the umbrella of the South African Field Force, so I would say that "Army Headquarters South Africa" would be more apt? AA (talk) 19:26, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Was that the official name of the place he was serving? If not, how about "the headquarters of the South African Field Force", with some explanation of what the SAFF was?

  UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 20:06, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • @UndercoverClassicist: His Gazette citation reads: Captain and Brevet Major R. M. Poore, 7th Hussars, to be Provost-Marshal, South African Field Force. Dated 13th November, 1899. On page 125 of Breaker Morant: The Final Roundup it states he was provost marshal at Army Headquarters Pretoria. I will expand that section to include that detail. On the SAFF, we don't seem to have a Wiki article for it. So I wonder if it is an informal term for the South African Army?

    • Googling around, it's definitely an official term: it pops up in a lot of historical books, but few of them explain what it was. I wonder if it's an expansion/renaming of the Natal Field Force? If you can't find any more detail yourself, I suspect there will be editors at WP:MILHIST who will be able to help. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 06:11, 7 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

      • @UndercoverClassicist: Here's our answer! Seems to just be a term to denote a number of units working together. AA (talk) 12:31, 7 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• war-crimes trial: strictly, MOS:DASH prefers war crimes–trial (note the endash) when the modifying prefix is multiple words.
  • Done, never knew this! AA (talk) 19:26, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Roberts praising Poore with regard his "care of prisoners": with regard to or just for.
  • Done. It would appear just for his care of prisoners, so have amended to reflect that. AA (talk) 19:26, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• the Battles of Paardeberg, Poplar Grove, Driefontein, Vet River, and Zand River: this should be the battles of Paardeberg etc (there's no such thing as the Battles of Paardeberg, so no capital on battles).
  • Done. AA (talk) 19:26, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• In February 1901, he was tasked by Kitchener with forming a Boer commando, the Bushveldt Mounted Rifles, which was made up of surrendered Boer combatants, whose task it was to loot cattle from enemy forces: the double relative clause is tricky. Suggest breaking the sentence after Rifles, and saying something like "The commando was made up of surrendered Boer combatants, and tasked with...}}
  • I have broken the sentence apart, hopefully reads better now. AA (talk) 19:26, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• he was a "brilliant" swordsman: tricky one: MOS:QUOTEPOV is an issue here. Advise he was considered a brilliant swordsman ....
  • Done. Have implemented your suggestion. AA (talk) 19:26, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• referencing the unusual manner in which he took up cricket, wrote of Poore: I think this would be clearer if we swap the he and the Poore -- at the moment, it could be Cooper who took up cricket in a strange way.
  • Done. Ah yes, when you look it from another perspective, it does also read that Cooper took up cricket in an unusual manner! AA (talk) 19:26, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

• File:Robert_Poore_c1908.jpg: when and where was this first published? Nikkimaria (talk) 04:43, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Nikkimaria: I was absolutely confident it was going to be in The Jubilee Book of Cricket (1897) by Ranjitsinhji, but to my surprise it wasn't. The original upload by User:Materialscientist was taken from Getty, and they haven't provided any authorship or publication information. AA (talk) 08:30, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Can a publication old enough to satisfy the terms of the current tagging be found? Nikkimaria (talk) 04:34, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Would any of these images suffice? AA (talk) 12:03, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not seeing publication info on those - is it known? Nikkimaria (talk) 03:43, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This one has erroneously been listed on ESPNcricinfo as having been published by The Cricketer in 1899, however it wasn't published until 1921. I have located the picture from this volume of Cricket: A Weekly Record of the Game, published in 1899. AA (talk) 20:50, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, that would make it PD in the US for sure. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:28, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I rarely upload to the Commons (and when I do, it's always my own cricket photos), so I'm a little unsure if I have done this correctly. The original author is Lafayette, who I am fairly certain is the Irish photographer James Lafayette (deceased 1923). AA (talk) 20:32, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If you look at the wording of the copyright template you've used, it indicates that you'll need an additional tag for US status. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:51, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have added the PD-US tag to it. AA (talk) 19:59, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

• Link first class cricket (I would personally remove "first class" from the opening sentence and then link it on what then becomes the first usage to avoid a sea of blue). Also check it is linked on first usage in the body.
  • Done, have removed "first-class" and linked it later on in the lede. AA (talk) 09:08, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• "at an average of 116.58" - link average here rather than on second usage
  • Done! AA (talk) 09:08, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• "Poore would serve in the Second Matabele War " - why not just "Poore served in the Second Matabele War"
  • Done. Much more succinct. AA (talk) 09:08, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• "The son of Major Robert Poore senior and his wife, Juliana Lowry-Corry" - I am assuming that was not her surname by the time the younger Poore was born.....?
  • Done. They were indeed married by Poore's birth, have added "née". AA (talk) 09:08, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• " it wasn't until," => " it was not until,"
  • Done. AA (talk) 09:08, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• "until, as a subaltern, that he visited India with the 7th Hussars did he realise his love for cricket" - this is hard to read and not grammatically correct. I suggest "until he visited India as a subaltern with the 7th Hussars that he realised his love for cricket"
  • Done. Yes, that was a bit of a tongue twister! I have reworded along the lines of your suggestion. AA (talk) 09:08, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Also link subaltern (I for one have no idea what it means)
  • Done. A mostly British term for a junior officer. AA (talk) 09:08, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• "he subsequently made his debut in first-class cricket while serving there for the Europeans cricket team" - I would lose "while serving there" as it makes the sentence confusing, and the fact that the game took place in Bombay makes it obvious anyway
  • Done. I agree, reading back it is an unnecessary and overly obvious detail! AA (talk) 09:08, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• "which included a maiden century" - link or explain this cricket jargon (I see that "Hundred" is actually linked on the second usage)
  • Done. I have linked the first usage and changed "hundreds" to "centuries" to avoid any cross-over confusion for readers not familiar with cricket jargon. AA (talk) 09:08, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• "helped the MCC to an innings victory" - link "innings victory"
  • Done. AA (talk) 09:08, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• "The following season, Poore became the highest first-class run-scorer in England" -=> "The following season, Poore was the highest first-class run-scorer in England" ("became" could be taken to mean that he became the highest scorer of all time)
  • Done. This reads much better. AA (talk) 09:08, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• "Poore's innings was described by the Southern Daily Echo" - newspaper article should be in italics
  • Done. Opps missed that :D AA (talk) 09:08, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• "Had Poore met with success in these, he would likely have played Test cricket for England....." - did he not then.......?
  • Done. He did not, had he done so he would have joined a rather exclusive club at the time. I have expanded the sentence by adding " but no Test cap for England was forthcoming". AA (talk) 09:08, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• "Poore played in two matches in the 1906 County Championship,[28] with him scoring a century" => "Poore played in two matches in the 1906 County Championship,[28] scoring a century"
  • Done. AA (talk) 09:08, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• "it was said that with his height and massive frame, that when he struck" => "it was said that, with his height and massive frame, when he struck"
  • Done. AA (talk) 09:08, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• "he was a first-rate swordsman, polo, tennis, racquets, squash, and shot player" => "he was a first-rate swordsman, and polo, tennis, racquets, squash, and shot player" (current wording indicates that he was a first-rate polo)
  • Done. AA (talk) 09:08, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• "1898, 1899, 1906, and 1907 Royal Navy and Military Tournament's" - no reason for apostrophe in tournaments
  • Done. AA (talk) 09:08, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• That's what I got :-) -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:06, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • @ChrisTheDude:. I have addressed your suggestions :) AA (talk) 09:08, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Support - nice one :-) -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 09:35, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Matarisvan

Hi AA, my comments:

• Link to Battle of Zand River?
  • Done. Have also linked Vet River, though it appears there is no article for that (I might add it to the MILHIST request page). AA (talk) 14:25, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Where was the Jhansi Brigade posted during Poore's command? Did they see any combat?
  • I cannot find any written records of where or what the Brigade was up to during WW1 :( AA (talk) 14:25, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • Done. They remained in India, being overlooked for any service in Europe. In India, he saw no active combat. AA (talk) 23:29, 5 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• What was the outcome of the Aldershot match where Poore captained?
  • Done. Result and reference added. It was an A&N victory by 6 wickets. AA (talk) 14:25, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Did Poore have any success as a shot player like he had for other sports? Also, what does shot mean here, shooting?
  • Done I have found a source which would support "shot" as meaning shooting though I don't have direct access to the source at the moment. AA (talk) 14:25, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Consider adding the location of publication for Humphris & Creagh 1924?
  • Done. AA (talk) 14:25, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Consider running the Internet Archive Bot on the page once so that archive URLs for weblinks can be automatically added?
  • I have run the Internet Archive Bot here. AA (talk) 08:57, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Might I suggest adding archive URLs manually for refs no. 14, 20, 28, 29, 43-47, 51, 53-54, 59, Lonsdale 1984, Lonsdale 1988 and Warner 1938? Matarisvan (talk) 09:03, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • @Matarisvan: I've added archive URLs to the non-CricketArchive URLs. I wonder if it is worth adding archive URLs for Cricket: A Weekly Record of the Game and other similar references, as the Web Archive snapshot is extremely glitchy. AA (talk) 13:37, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Not an issue then. Will do spot checks by end of day. Matarisvan (talk) 14:01, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    AA, a support from me on prose. Spot checks:

    • Refs #5, #18, #39, #48, #58, #64: all ok.
    • Ref #22: I could not find, on pages 280-282, supporting statements for our text "He returned home aboard the SS Canada in July 1902". Could you provide the page number and its associated link here?

    Matarisvan (talk) 10:53, 7 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    @Matarisvan: The reference for him returning on board the SS Canada is here. AA (talk) 12:22, 7 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    The source review is a pass then. As an aside, you should correct ref #24, which shows "Humphris, Creagh & 1,924". Matarisvan (talk) 12:29, 7 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Done! AA (talk) 12:37, 7 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's all from me, I will try to get a source review done soon. Cheers Matarisvan (talk) 09:37, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• @Matarisvan: all suggestions actioned :) AA (talk) 08:57, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

SC - source review: pass

• Full review to follow later, but in the meantime:
• In the references you should delink the publishers and locations (all of these are superfluous and fairly useless – several of them are OVERLINKING, and they don't aid readers at all
  • @SchroCat: How about keeping links to newspaper publications? AA (talk) 16:00, 13 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • Personally I don't, but it’s your call. The only thing you have to ensure is that you’re consistent in either doing all or none. - SchroCat (talk) 17:37, 13 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      • Comment. I'll leave the newspapers linked as I feel it's appropriate to link The Times as there are multiple papers of that name, and so would not be consistent to also not link the other newspaper sources. AA (talk) 19:40, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Ditto in the Works cited section, I'd advise delinking all the locations and publishers
  • Done. AA (talk) 22:10, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• It's best to aim for consistency in how you present sources, so get the ISBNs into the same 13-digit format; (you can use https://www.isbn.org/ISBN_converter to get the correct version for Thomson)
  • Done. AA (talk) 22:09, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• If a book has no ISBN (like Humphris), consider adding the oclc instead, which you can get from https://search.worldcat.org/.
  • Done. AA (talk) 22:09, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Why are you using sfnref for the two entries from The Cricket Statistician when you could cite them directly to the author, Lonsdale? Ditto Warner
  • Comment and done. As they were contributors to a section in the journal/magazine, I was under the impression we link to the work and not the author. If this is not the case, I have now changed it to cite directly to Lonsdale and Warner. AA (talk) 16:17, 13 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'll do a full prose review in a day or so. - SchroCat (talk) 09:17, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• OK, source review passed. - SchroCat (talk) 19:44, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

SC prose review

Lead & IB

• "Whilst" -> "while"
  • Done. AA (talk) 19:40, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• "adjuged" to "adjudged"
  • Done, good spot! AA (talk) 19:40, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Military career

• "wife, Juliana Poore née" -> "wife, Juliana née" (Don't need to repeat the Poore)
  • Done. AA (talk) 19:40, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• "where took part in engagements" -> "where he took part in engagements"?
  • Done. AA (talk) 19:40, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

India and South Africa

• "with Poore playing a second match" ->"and played a second match"?
  • Done, this reads much better. AA (talk) 19:40, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hampshire

• "his height and massive frame": this is the first time his physique has been mentioned in the body, so it may be worth putting in some details (what was his height, for example)
  • Comment. It was a little difficult to insert too much detail on his height and physique, however, I have inserted his height into the sentence using template {{convert|6.4|ft|m}}, though not sure if "6 feet and 4 inches" would read better (but the conversion template does not allow for this wording). AA (talk) 19:53, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • It does allow it - I've tweaked to show it, as 6'4" is different to 6.4 ft. - SchroCat (talk) 20:25, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hope these are helpful. - SchroCat (talk) 10:01, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• @SchroCat:. These were helpful, thank you :) Please see my actions/comments above. AA (talk) 19:53, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Support. All good from me. - SchroCat (talk) 20:25, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Cheers :) AA (talk) 20:55, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Five Nights at Freddy's: Help Wanted

Nominator(s): Fathoms Below (talk) 20:37, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about a virtual reality game released as part of the Five Nights at Freddy's franchise. Last year after I helped promote the original game to FA status, I've been curious on whether another FA could be made with this franchise. This game probably has the best chance overall. In summary, Help Wanted adapts the first five games in the series in an anthology format, while also including some new minigames. So let's see what we can do here. Fathoms Below (talk) 20:37, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Vacant0

Will review. Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 10:44, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Add translated titles for Ref 1, 3, 6, 8, 26
• Change Ref 22 website to UploadVR

Done second point, @Vacant0, is there a specific policy requiring the translation of the source titles? Just curious, because I'm not sure if that would be required. My previous FACs used a few non-English sources and I wasn't asked to translate the titles. Fathoms Below (talk) 18:12, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not aware of one, but I might be wrong. I know that there's a policy about foreign quotations, but not foreign titles. I was told to add translated titles at a GA review some time ago, so I've been doing it since then. Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 18:17, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I checked around at some pertinent policies and guidelines (WP:NOENG, and WP:FOOTQUOTE) and it seems like translating the titles into English is not required, though quotes not in English should be translated to English. I might ask around and see if translating the titles to English is preferable or if they should be kept as-is. Fathoms Below (talk) 18:29, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's fine then. I do not see it is an issue that should bar the article from becoming FA. Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 21:19, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The prose is relatively short so I'll go through and read, and leave any recommendations if I spot any. If the article does not receive a source check, you can ping me and I'll do that too. Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 21:20, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• "Help Wanted is a virtual reality survival horror game" – It's up to you, but I'd change Help Wanted to Five Nights at Freddy's: Help Wanted.

Done

• Optionally wikilink virtual reality (it's already wikilinked in the lede, so why not do it in the body too?)

Done

• Add (VR) as the abbreviation of virtual reality in the same first sentence.

Done

• Jump scare is wikilinked twice. Remove the second wikilink.

Done

• Possibly explain the warped graphics element.

The reviewer says "distorted visuals" and there isn't much that I could find that went into detail on the graphics.

• Who published the game?

Scott Cawthon via his company ScottGames. I'll add that to the infobox

• I'll look at the lede and reception tomorrow.
• There's not too much information about the sequel, so per WP:VGLAYOUT it can stay where it is right now under the Reception section.
• Lede: The downloadable content called Curse of Dreadbear.

reworded

• Reception:
  • I personally feel like the wording could be slightly improved.

A lot of the sources weren't in English and it was hard to summarize their thoughts. This section was the one that I thought might need some extra eyes

I'll have a deeper look in the next few days and leave some comments that could improve the section. Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 10:50, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• • "UploadVR called it a worthy adaptation or the franchise's games" I assume this is a typo.

Done

• • IGN Italy should be italicised.

Done

• • "the power of the jumpscares"?

Should I change it to "effectiveness"?

Yes, that sounds better. Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 10:50, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• • "Some reviewers called the jumpscares effective, but said that they would become repetitive over time" – remove said

Done

• • Optionally move "The game was nominated for the Coney Island Dreamland Award for Best AR/VR Game at the New York Game Awards in 2020." to the first paragraph.

Done

• • Do we have reception for the sequel?

Metacritic lists only one review for the sequel from UploadVR. Should I include it?

Sure, why not. Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 10:50, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I couldn't find a great way to integrate the review to be honest. Is there a way you think I should add it somehow. Say something like "UploadVR called the game ___ and ___?" Just curious, I just want to make sure that I'm doing this right.

Vacant09, a few replies above. Fathoms Below (talk) 22:07, 21 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'll go paragraph by paragraph.

• The first paragraph does not have any issues.
• Second paragraph:
  • What do you mean by an "accessible" entry?

Easy to get into, especially for people unfamiliar to the franchise

• • "Destructoid felt that it would appease longtime fans and people unfamiliar with the series,[2] and The Games Machine said that it would appeal to players who were not fans of horror media through its simple mechanics" → "Destructoid saw that longtime fans and those unfamiliar with the series would be appeased with the game, while The Games Machine wrote that players previously not fans of the horror genre would be appeased because of its simple mechanics"

Reworded a little to be more in line with the source. Does this work?

Yes. Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 19:40, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• • "worthy adaptation"?

Decided to add a quote from the article instead. Does this look better?

Yes. Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 19:40, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• • "IGN Italy said that it was" – change to present tense

Done

• Third paragraph:
  • "UploadVR said the atmosphere was intriguing and increased the power of the jumpscares, writing that the virtual reality made the game feel immersive" → "UploadVR said the game's atmosphere was intriguing and increased the power of jumpscares, and that virtual reality made the game feel immersive"

Reworded. Does this work?

Yes. Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 19:40, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• • effective, in what sense?

Effective at scaring the player

• Fourth paragraph:
  • I doubt that "the" is needed before "different minigames".

Reworded

• • "The Games Machine called the levels diverse"?

This was a tricky one, but I reworded it. Does the new version make sense? I think I got it more in line with what the reviewer was saying.

Yes, it sounds better. Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 20:27, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support Thanks for addressing my comments. Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 20:30, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support from NegativeMP1

I've done work on every other game in the Five Nights at Freddy's series and conducted several source searches for this article before this FAC at the request of the nom (hell, we nearly co-nom'd), while also reading through it countless times. So knowing the subject matter and what all is out there, I firmly believe that this article clearly meets the FA criteria (though I did choose to wait for Vacant to finish his review before I supported), and I hope that this passes. λ NegativeMP1 07:15, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Smash Hit

Nominator(s): Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 15:56, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hello everyone. This article is about a 2014 smash hit mobile game, Smash Hit. You shoot balls and break glass and crystals. There's also a virtual reality version of the game. This is my second FAC nomination overall. This article was promoted to GA last month and was then reviewed by three editors in a peer review. Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 15:56, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

750h+

Support I was a reviewer at the PR and can say that I have no comments left. 750h+ 23:42, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 09:46, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from TechnoSquirrel69

This looks interesting! Putting myself down for a review later. —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 16:03, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi @TechnoSquirrel69:. Do you still plan on reviewing this? Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 10:22, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Apologies for the delay; I am indeed! I have started a source review but haven't gotten an opportunity to wrap it up yet. I'm hoping to do that and post my comments later today. —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 14:41, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Alright, thanks. Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 17:02, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Source review

Citation numbers from this revision. Let's do this!

• What make citations 25 and 43 reliable and high-quality? Both seem to be blogs.
  • Ref 25 App Annie (now Data.ai) was a data analytics platform that also covered the statistics of apps in App Store and Play Store. In this case, it is used to reference the position of Smash Hit on the Play Store. The App Store claim is cited by VentureBeat which also cites the data from App Annie. Ref 43 is indeed a developer blog, it was copied from the FA Teardown (video game).
• What makes citation 8 reliable and high-quality? Their about page from around the time of the article's publication doesn't mention an editorial review process or similar.
  • From what I was able to find, AppleNApps is used by Metacritic to aggregate reviews while the author covered iOS apps and games for about 10 years and now works at Apple.

  I'm not sure if that's a satisfactory explanation to use the source for critical opinions on a video game — Metacritic lists plenty of publications that we would consider unreliable here on Wikipedia, and the author of the publication being hired at Apple years later does not give them preumptive reliability in this topic area. —TS

  Fair enough. I've removed the two AppleNApps refs. This, however, created an issue with "After completion, the player enters the endless mode, a stage which is infinitely repeated until the player is out of balls." We only have several references calling it an endless runner, so I've had to change it to that. Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 17:49, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Points for pulling reviews from multiple languages; nice work!
• There are a handful of citations that need archive links for consistency. I used theLink Dispenser tool to pick them out. (Hi Sohom!)
  • I've used IABot to archive refs but for some reason it refused to archive a couple of them several times. I've added missing archive URLs.
• "travels forward at a constant speed" fails verification, though Starr does mention that the player moves on a "pre-set path".
  • I've added another ref that should confirm this 100%. I've removed the "constant speed" part though because I've played the game yesterday and the player's speed is not always the same.
• Citations 5 and 29: Don't use the {{ill}} template in citation templates as it corrupts the metadata they generate.
  • Done.
• "The game's music initially had 33 tracks" Source verifies the claim but also mentions that the tracks were "stitched together in different combinations", so they weren't really 33 distinct songs. I think this could be rephrased a little to include that detail.
  • Done.
• Which part of the source supports the claim "He was satisfied with the end result"?
  • I've interpreted the "it works well in practice" part about the shattering algorithm as him being satisfied.
• Citation 25: The site is down and redirects to something else, switch |status=unfit.
  • Done.
• Citation 33: Switch |status=dead.
  • Done.
• I conducted a dozen or so source–text integrity spot-checks, most of which came back clean except for a few which I've mentioned above.

General comments

• The first sentence of § Gameplay appends the background music tidbit somewhat awkwardly. I would split that into another sentence or merge into a later sentence.
  • Done.
• "... a 3D video game, and has been categorised as an action and puzzle game" reads like you're pulling genre tags from the app store page. The action one seems especially redundant considering that the game is already identified as a rail shooter. Can we convey this style information in a way that's more engaging?
  • I've removed that sentence altogether and added "puzzle game" in the first sentence. I hope it's better now.
• This is a bit of a nitpick, and rather optional: in the sentence "Michelle Starr of CNET described the glass-shattering effect as impressive, while Pugliese viewed them as detailed and comprehensive." I typically prefer to see the corresponding citation at the end of the clause rather than both being pushed to the end of the sentence. This occurs a few times in the prose. Also, what's a "comprehensive" sound effect?
  • Visual effect, not sound effect! I've replaced the word with one that more closely resembles the one from the original article.

That's a full source review, but I might be back for further review of the prose. Feel free to reply to my comments in line and let me know if you have any questions! —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 05:18, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the review, @TechnoSquirrel69:! I've addressed your comments. Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 12:01, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Vacant0: I have one reply above; everything else looks good! —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 16:58, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done! Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 17:52, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Looks good to me; source review passed. —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 18:35, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 19:01, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sodium

I'm putting myself down to take a look at this later this week. Sohom (talk) 04:30, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, @Sohom Datta:. It's been 13 days so are you still interested in reviewing this? Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 11:53, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

TWOrantula

Ooh, shiny! Gonna review this later. TWOrantula^TM (enter the web) 23:50, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, @TrademarkedTWOrantula:. Are you still interested in reviewing this article again? Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 11:10, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry for the wait! I'll plan to review this article's prose sometime this week (if time is on my side). TWOrantula^TM (enter the web) 14:46, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No problem. Take your time. Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 15:57, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Lead

• "specific amount of time" - Perhaps change it to "limited"?
• "in-game purchase, allowing..." -> "in-game purchase that allows..."
• "created its physics engine, and the acoustics" - Feels as though a verb is needed here, between "engine" and "and"
• "while Henrik Johansson designed its art and levels" - You could cut "art" because I think it's part of the levels
• "was also hired" - Recommend cutting "also"
• "reviewers who" - Comma needed between these words
• Solid paragraph here!
  • All done. Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 17:40, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

BP!

Hi. I will point this out early so you can work this out immediately before the actual source reviewer comes.

• What makes 148Apps, Sphil, Techradar, CNET (it is a low quality source according to FAC reviewers), UploadVR, and Holmquist Tonalitet reliable? 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 01:12, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • The article already received a source and spotcheck review, so I'm unsure what you actually mean.
  • Shpil was/is a gaming magazine that is listed as an authoritative source on the Russian VG/RS. TechRadar is a Future plc publication and is listed as a reliable source at WP:VG/RS. CNET is situational nowadays but pre-2020 content is considered reliable per WP:RSP. UploadVR is also listed as a reliable source. Homlquist Tonalitet is a primary source and was copied from Teardown (video game), which is a FA. 148Apps is the weakest out of all of these, but from discussions circa 2014 it leans reliable. It is also a Steel Media publication, which also publishes Pocket Gamer. Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 11:50, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    hmmmm, Fair enough. Ill try to read this article again in a couple of days. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 22:06, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    • Be consistent with whether or not the citations use title case for the titles. Make sure to italicize game titles in the citation titles per MOS:CONFORMTITLE. Like for ex. the websites has "Smash hit" on their title, it should be italicized like Smash Hit.

    🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 04:53, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    @Boneless Pizza!: Done. Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 10:54, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Nice. I support this FAC for promotion based on the prose. 🍕BP!🍕 (🔔) 10:58, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Thanks. Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 11:02, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Draken Bowser

Looks neat. Just a few ideas below:

• An earlier tweak removed "3D video game". My understanding is that a rail shooter could also be in 2D. If so, we need to re-add this information, preferably at the beginning of the "Gameplay"-section.
  • Reinstated.
• The description of bullet-gameplay mechanics is a bit unclear, and these are always hard to write without ambiguity. I'm assuming here that "at once" refers to the maximum number of balls allowed to travel through the air at a time. I think it would make sense to restructure this entire section to begin by stating that the count starts at one ball at a time, and then explain how combo mechanics come into play.
  • I've restructured the sentences according to your recommendation. "By default, the player's rate of fire is one ball and it can be increased to five by smashing a consecutive sequence of crystals. Despite the increase, the player would still only lose one ball from their ammunition from each shot" Does it look better now?
    • I think so, though I don't think "how many balls are in" is necessary. We've already established the concept of "rate of fire". /DB
      • Removed that part (I did not add this).
• beginning of each game - prefer "level"
  • Why though? The player always starts at the beginning of the game, while the in-game purchase allows the ability to start at the beginning of any level. If this sentence was confusing, I do not think it should be anymore.
    • If that's the case I'd prefer for it to say: "beginning of the first level" /DB
      • Done.
• Holmquist stated that Smash Hit was the toughest of all games on which he worked with Mediocre. - Do we know how or in what respect? Without that extra info I don't find the sentence very compelling.
  • Removed.
• considering that the glass shatters at the point where it is hit - I'm a bit confused here. I thought that's where you'd expect glass to break?
  • In the game, yes. He, however, wrote: "This is not true in the real world, where tension builds up in the material, and objects tend to break at their weakest spot". I've added this mention.
• Since its initial release, the game has received several updates. - This is another sentence where I'd like either a little more info or removal.
  • Removed.

Regards. Draken Bowser (talk) 14:23, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your comments. Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 18:20, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

While scouring for Swedish sources I realized we should probably mention when Mediocre was founded. Only, Dagens Nyheter states that the company was founded "in the fall of 2012", but the company blog says "fall of 2010", although the aktiebolag wasn't registered until 2011 (which was also the year Sprinkle released). Not sure what to do about that. Draken Bowser (talk) 19:45, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Here's a 2011 PG interview in which Johansson said that Mediocre was founded in fall of 2010. Escapist and Holmquist's blog also say 2010. Based on this, should I include this in the article? Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 19:55, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've found a few more: Dagens Nyheter and LiU.se. Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 20:01, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Please don't me sliding into these DMs, but is "rate of fire" the correct word here? You shoot five balls at the same time, not individual balls at a faster rate. IceWelder [✉] 20:09, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You're right. I did not know what terminology to use without making it sound worse. I've changed this now but it can be improved if it does not sound good enough. Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 20:19, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe we should simply call it a "limit"? Draken Bowser (talk) 12:23, 13 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Where exactly? The sentences are currently worded as: "By default, the player shoots one ball at a time, but can shoot up to five at once by smashing a consecutive sequence of crystals. Regardless of the amount, the player will only lose ball of ammunition per shot." Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 12:28, 13 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've added the year of their foundation in the article, considering that multiple sources indicate that it was founded in 2010. Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 11:00, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Freston (causewayed enclosure)

Nominator(s): Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 00:37, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about another Neolithic site in England, this one being investigated by a Canadian research team, for some reason; only one excavation so far, so not a lot of findings to report, which is a pity as there's a possible Neolithic longhouse or Anglo-Saxon hall in part of the site, which I'm sure the team are keen to get to. The article has had a very helpful pre-FAC review from UndercoverClassicist. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 00:37, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Images are appropriately licensed. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:22, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

sawyer777

very exciting, always happy to see archaeology at FAC! i can commit to a review for this in the next few days. ... sawyer * he/they * talk 12:34, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

initial suggestions/comments:

• (lead) i'd link person-days (redirect to "man hour" but still useful for those unfamiliar)

  Done. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:50, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• (lead) it should be "McMaster" not "McMasters" University

  Oops. Done. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:50, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• (site) link Anglo-Saxon here as well

  Done. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:50, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• (discovery, fieldwalking & watching briefs) "though this will require excavation to confirm." i'd change that to something more like "this would require excavation" or maybe "excavation would be required for confirmation".

  I agree that "will" doesn't sound ideal, but I don't think "would" works any better. The problem with "would" is that "X would later be required" can mean "X happened later, as was required"; we need a form of words that can't be misread to indicate it actually happened. I settled on "will", even though it jars a bit with the past tense of the narrative, because it's a true statement -- right now, excavation will be required to confirm what those features are. I thought about reversing it so that instead of saying what will be needed, it says that it hasn't happened: "... some of which could be Saxon sunken-featured buildings, though as they have not yet been excavated this has not been confirmed", but I think that's uglier and less true to the source's point, which is just "here's a theory, but it needs excavation to confirm it". Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:50, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  fair enough! ... sawyer * he/they * talk 15:02, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• (finds from 2019 excavation) "acid soil" --> "acidic soil"

  Done. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:50, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• (sources) i'd add ISSNs to journals/periodicals where available, for consistency & usefulness to the curious reader

  I generally don't add ISSNs, though I often see people adding them to articles I write, and I don't remove them. I don't find them helpful myself. If you think it's necessary I'll add them, though. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:50, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  one citation does already have an ISSN, which is why i suggested it. i like to add them, but if you don't usually, then i have no objection to you removing that singular one! ... sawyer * he/they * talk 15:01, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  I went ahead and added them -- you're right that consistency is valuable, and I don't really object to them. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:57, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

overall the prose and such is great, not many issues at all. i think i'll do a source review for this as well - if i've not done that by sunday, ping me. ... sawyer * he/they * talk 21:53, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the review. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:50, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

source review

in terms of source quality, no complaints. especially for more rural/"obscure" sites like this, these (archaeological journals, books/chapters from university presses, government trust reports, &c.) are definitely the best kinds of sources one can find. if necessary i have real-life access to most of these, but not immediately on my laptop.

comments:

• Palmer (1976) is referenced but not listed in the bibliography. as far as i can tell, this is the only citation with this issue

a spot-check is probably unnecessary what with how many FAs you have, but just for good measure:

• 10 (Curwen 1930) - good
• 14a (Carter et al. 2021) - good
• 20 (Martin 2007) - good, quote matches up
• 32 (Wilson 1975) - good
• 47 (Schofield et al. 2021) - good
• 49 (Carter et al. 2021) - good

... sawyer * he/they * talk 23:20, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks -- have fixed Palmer. I can send you a copy of Curwen if you need it? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:27, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

oh, sorry lol i forgot to put the "good" down for Curwen initially. now that we have Palmer 1976, support. :) ... sawyer * he/they * talk 13:57, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

HF

Another archaeology one, I'll be sure to review soon. Hog Farm _Talk 23:19, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Apologies for how long it took to get to this; work got busiser than I expected.

Supporting, I read through it and had no concerns from a non-expert perspective. Hog Farm _Talk 22:01, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, HF; I appreciate the review. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:38, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

RoySmith

Just some random comments for now.

• Freston is a causewayed enclosure,[4] a form of earthwork that was built in northwestern Europe, including the southern British Isles, in the early Neolithic period. I'd drop "including the southern British Isles". It's a long complicated sentence, and given that the entire article is about something in the southern British Isles, that goes without saying.]

  Done. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 13:20, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• The causeways are difficult to explain in military terms does the source actually say they're difficult to explain, or is that you editorializing?

  The sources do make this point. For example, Cunnington says "It is very difficult to see why the frequent openings in the entrenchment should have been left, when apparently they must weaken it so materially, if it was intended for purposes of defence ... [one theory is] that they had some distinct purpose in the scheme of defence; that they were, indeed, a strengthening and not a weakening factor in this seemingly not very strongly-defended place". She goes on to give other possibilities, including the sally port suggestion. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 13:20, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• There is also evidence that they played a role in funeral rites, you need to go back to the previous paragraph to be sure what "they" is referring to; probably better to be more specific here.

  Done. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 13:20, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• material such as food, pottery, and human remains was deliberately deposited I think this is grammatically correct in a strict way, but it reads funny. The subject of "was" is "material", so it's correct to use the singular form of the verb, but at first scan you see "human remains was" which is jarring. Can this be rephrased to avoid that?

  Had a go at this. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 13:20, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• they were built in a single operation what evidence is there for this? I assume the source says so, but enquiring readers will want more.

  The source doesn't say so -- the statement comes in the concluding summary of an article about causewayed enclosures, and doesn't cite a source or give more explanations. I think the source is strong enough to include this, even without further explanation, though I agree I'd like to be able to say more on the point. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 13:20, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Since these are found in both continental Europe and the British Isles, the obvious question is how did they get across the water, by whom, and when, and in which direction? I see you touch on this briefly at the ends of the "Background" and "Site" sections, but I think it deserves going into more and earlier in the article.

  I'm not sure I agree -- this is an article about a specific causewayed enclosure, after all, not about the whole class of causewayed enclosures. There's already a fair bit of text in the article that is not specific to this particular site (compare Great Wilbraham (causewayed enclosure) and you'll see what I mean) and I'd rather not go further in that direction if I don't have to. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 13:20, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• The enclosure is 8.55 ha (21.1 acres) in area, "in area" is redundant.

  That was added in the pre-FAC review on the article talk page, so I'd like to leave it there and see if other reviewers have an opinion one way or another. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 13:20, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Four sherds of pottery were found link sherds -> Glossary of archaeology#potsherd

  Done. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 13:20, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

All responded to; thanks for the review. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 13:20, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A few more comments...

• The Discovery, fieldwalking, and watching briefs section starts out a bit oddly with it not being found in 1944. I'd lead with the key idea, i.e. "The site was discovered in 1969", and then fill in the details about it not being found on earlier photos. Any idea why it wasn't seen in the 1944 photos? Were the 1969 images higher quality? It's also not clear what happened between 1966 and 1969; was there was one set of photos in 1966 and another set in 1969, or were the 1966 photos re-examined three years later using better techniques?

  I can do this if you really think it's necessary, but I like the directly chronological approach, rather than having to step back in time in the second sentence to 1944. To answer your question, the source says there was no sign of earthworks or cropmarks. The article says further down that the earthworks were long gone by the 20th century, and cropmarks are often only visible in very dry conditions, so if the 1944 photos were taken when it wasn't very dry the cropmarks would not have been there. The 1966 photos were taken for the Ordnance Survey and not as part of a search for cropmarks, and nobody noticed the evidence on them. At some point, no later than 1995, someone went back and looked for earlier photos and found the 1966 ones, and realized that the site was identifiable if anyone had paid attention. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 19:15, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• This may be outside the scope of WP:FACR, but I wonder if just plain Freston causewayed enclosure would be a better title, per WP:PARENDIS? Looking at Category:Causewayed enclosures I see people have done it both ways, so no strong feeling either way here.

  The sources don't tend to append "causewayed enclosure" to the name, which is why I haven't named the articles I've written that way. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 19:15, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• a group from McMaster University organized ... a pedestrian survey This is in the lead, but I don't see anything in the body that talks about a pedestrian survey. Or is this what you refer to as "fieldwalking"? If so, it would be helpful to non-expert readers (like me!) to either use the same term in both places, or explain the linkage.

  Added "(surveying the site on foot)" after the first use in the body. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 19:15, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Freston is about 13 km (8 mi) from the sea; it would have been about 18 km (11 mi) from the sea at the start of the Neolithic. Why did this change by 5km? I'm guessing rising sea levels, but it would be good to explain that.

  The source doesn't say but it's sure to be sea level changes. I can probably find a source that says something about sea levels in the Neolithic, and might be able to use that, but I'm slightly hesitant about possible synth problems. I'll see what I can find and will report back. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 19:15, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  My first look didn't come up with anything I can cite, but this does imply that sea level is the reason -- the North Sea was low enough for Doggerbank to be above water only 2,000 years before the enclosure at Freston was constructed. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 03:29, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Hi Roy, anything further to add here? Gog the Mild (talk) 12:21, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support from UC

Good to see this here. I will chip in, though it might be wise to wait until we have a few more reviews (as I left comments on a recent draft): let me know if a good moment comes up, otherwise I'll keep my eye on the page. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 10:45, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

UndercoverClassicist, I think this would be a good time if you have more comments? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 18:39, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ask and you shall receive...

• near the village of Freston, in Suffolk, England: since we've got the in, we don't want the preceding comma.

  Fixed. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 23:07, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• from shortly before 3700 BC until at least 3500 BC: consider from shortly before 3700 until...: the one BC can cover both, especially as there's not yet been an AD 3700.

  Done. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 23:07, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• The Freston enclosure was first identified from cropmarks in aerial photographs in 1969: consider first identified in 1969: I think it's neater and more grammatical, and clarifies that the identification was in 1969, not (just) the photographs. Nit-picking, but I don't think we actually say this in the body: we have In 1969 J. K. St Joseph, who ran the Cambridge University Committee for Aerial Photography (CUCAP) program for many years, took aerial photographs that recorded cropmarks in the northern part of the site, but that doesn't actually confirm that anyone noticed that the photographs showed those cropmarks.

  The wording in the source is slightly odd: Dyer says (after mentioning the earlier photographs) "The site is generally accepted as being discovered in 1969 during an aerial reconnaissance flight by St Joseph when the site was first intentionally recorded by photography". I think the most natural way to interpret this is that St Joseph's was looking for sites, saw the cropmarks, and hence took a picture, but the "generally accepted" gives me pause enough to have prevented me making that statement directly in the article. The body does currently say "was not discovered until 1969", which I think does mean it was discovered in 1969, but if you think the source wording is definite enough I could reword. Perhaps "Aerial photographs taken by the Royal Air Force in 1944 showed no sign of cropmarks, and although the site was partly visible on photographs taken in 1966 this was not noticed at the time. The site was discovered in 1969 by J. K. St Joseph, who ran the Cambridge University Committee for Aerial Photography (CUCAP) program for many years; he identified it on a reconnaissance flight that year and took aerial photographs that recorded cropmarks in the northern part of the site." Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 23:07, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  I think that source definitely puts the identification in 1969, so how about "first identified in 1969, from cropmarks..." UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 07:18, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Done in the lead. After thinking about it some more I've made the change I proposed above in the body. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:29, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• The cropmarks show an enclosure with two circuits of ditches, and a palisade that ran between the two ditches: between the two circuits? We imply that there may have been more than one ditch in a circuit (which seems to be true, from the map)

  Done; also in the body. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 23:07, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Consider a link to Survey (archaeology) on "pedestrian survey" and to Geophysical survey (archaeology) on "geophysical survey".

  Both added. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 23:07, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Other finds included oak charcoal fragments that suggested the palisade had been made of oak: how about oak charcoal fragments, believed to come from the palisade? Seems to be stating the obvious at the moment.

  Done. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 23:07, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Evidence of attacks at some sites provided support for the idea that the enclosures were fortified settlements.: hm -- there's pretty good evidence of attacks at Omaha beach, but I'm not sure that provides any evidence that it was a settlement. Perhaps a problem for the sources rather than the article, as long as those are unequivocal that fortification implies settlement status.

  The section of Whittle et al. that I am citing is an overview of causewayed enclosures in Britain; this particular paragraph starts by talking about the long history of multiple interpretations for them. After going through some of the assertions about them having been settlements, they say "Fortifications and defence, originally inferred from superficial similarity to Iron Age hillforts, returned to the fore in the 1980s with evidence for hostilities at sites such as Crickley Hill in Gloucestershire and Hambledon Hill in Dorset", and they cite the articles in which those suggestions were made. I've been taking this sequence as arguing that the fortifications were of the settlements just discussed, but perhaps that's reading too much into the sequence of presentation? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 23:22, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  I must admit I'm not seeing that from what you've written, but then you're looking at the source and I'm not. Is anything lost from cutting settlements here, and developing the two strands separately? UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 07:19, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  I've cut it and tweaked a little -- I agree they don't have to be connected. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:39, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• used for trading cattle or other goods such as pottery: more importantly, its contents, surely? Again, a sources problem rather than an article one, I suspect.

  This is from later in the same summarizing section that I mentioned just above; I'm attempting to summarize a broad-ranging pageful of speculation (though I see that one of the relevant sentences actually starts on the previous page, so I'll amend the citation to say that). Here the relevant bits are "A role in animal herding, prompted by [various evidence] ... The frequency of pottery and lithics from remote sources, sometimes of finer quality and manufacture than local products, suggested that causewayed enclosures were foci for the exchange, consumption and deposition of significant objects ... [After suggesting that a family might have lived in an enclosure] The territory would provide most of the essential resources, such as ... [some] would be obtained by exchange with other groups ..." I picked cattle and pottery as representative examples. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 02:14, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  I think what you've got is reasonable, though perhaps gives more weight to the pottery than is due: as I read the source quoted, the point is that we can see the pottery and the lithics, and therefore infer that there were also other, similarly-valuable goods being passed around that are no longer archaeologically visible. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 07:21, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  I've cut the examples and left it as just "trading"; I think you're right. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:39, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• as they were built in a single operation: consider as the enclosures were built...: it's been a while since we had the antecedent of they.

  Done. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 02:14, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• either would make Freston a site of "potentially national importance", according to English Heritage.: do EH (or Historic England, as they now are) elaborate on why this would be so?

  All Martin says is "Two large pits recorded between the structure and enclosure ditches could be either Saxon Sunken Featured Buildings (SFBs) or relate to the Neolithic ditches (Hegarty and Newsome 2004, 66). Either date for the building would make it of potentially national importance." Carter quotes Martin, saying "In either instance it can be viewed as a structure ‘of potentially national importance’ (Martin 2007, 1), given the rarity of such buildings; it would also represent one of the largest known examples of either category" and goes on to say how few causewayed enclosures have Neolithic longhouses inside their perimeter.

  Can we add some of this -- seems to be that the point is that either building would make it an important site on its own, since both are very rare? UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 14:29, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Added a bit. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 15:12, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

More to follow. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 18:52, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Replies above. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 02:14, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• and although the site was partly visible on photographs taken in 1966 this was not noticed at the time.: this is a little clumsy in phrasing, I think. Perhaps Aerial photographs taken by the Royal Air Force in 1944 showed no sign of cropmarks; the site is partly visible in a second series of photographs taken in 1966, but was not noticed at the time.?

  Done, but rather than "second", which might imply to the reader that these were also RAF photographs, I've made it clear they were taken by the OS. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 15:12, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• on the geophysics survey: usually on the geophysical survey, though admittedly most archaeologists would say geophys in person.

  Fixed. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 15:12, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• The ditch probably predated the causewayed enclosure and may have been dug next to a long barrow, a form of Neolithic burial mound: is this the same mystery structure that might be an Early Medieval hall?

  No -- is this not clear? The building is in the northeast corner of the enclosure and this ditch runs from south of the trench, which is itself on the south side of the site. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 15:12, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Probably an artefact of me reading it in several parts, and slightly losing the track of where I was -- but perhaps there's room to idiot-proof it a bit more? UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 15:21, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  I am struggling a bit to find a way to say this that isn't just "by the way, this thing isn't that other thing I mentioned earlier". I've added more text to the site image caption, mentioning the long barrow as a separate entity from the longhouse. Does that do it? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:29, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Certainly -- I'm sure most readers will be far more switched-on than me. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 08:03, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• The chapter title of Andersen 2015 is in title case: other book and journal chapter titles seem to be in sentence case. Is there a logic here?

  No, no logic! Fixed. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 15:12, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Edwininlondon

With the caveats that I am neither an expert in neolithic structures nor a native speaker, I offer the following comments on prose. (My only somewhat relevant claim here is that I have been twice to Bury Ditches.)

• manuring practices in the 19th century --> elsewhere it is "eighteenth or nineteenth century"; be consistent

  Fixed. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:00, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• we have various spelling forms of directions, e.g. "the north-eastern part of the site", "the north-east of the site", "in northwestern Europe", "in the northeast corner", "the northeastern corner", "south to northeast",

  I think I got them all. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:00, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• In 2019 a --> previous paragraph starts in similar way but with a comma

  They are now consistent (no comma). Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:00, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• The survey identified located both the inner and outer ditches --> identified? located? but not both

  Oops. Fixed. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:00, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Features identified in the 2019 trench --> should this table not be next to the diagram?

  Ideally, but I don't think there's a way to lay out the page to achhieve that without sandwiching or causing other layout uglinesses. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:00, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• after the monument was abandoned --> this makes it sound as if it was a monument at the time of abandoning

  Changed to "enclosure". Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:00, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• The palisade trench, F11, identified next to F2 contained oak charcoal, --> I would do the commas differently, but this is probably personal preference: The palisade trench F11, identified next to F2, contained oak charcoal,

  No, I think you're right; changed to the way you have it. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:00, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• after the initial construction of the monument --> I think causewayed enclosure is better than monument

  Changed. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:00, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's all. Nice work. Edwininlondon (talk) 10:11, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the review; all addressed. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:00, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I Support on prose. Edwininlondon (talk) 08:51, 7 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Dudley

• The title looks wrong to me. Freston would normally mean the village rather than the site. Why not Freston causewayed enclosure without the brackets?

  You're the second person to suggest this; I'll move the article, but I'll wait till the FAC is closed to avoid causing a problem with FACbot. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:19, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• "A cropmark is an area of a field in which the crops grow differently because of differences in the soil beneath them." This is not quite right as a general definition. Cropmarks often indicate buried walls rather than different soils.

  Added a comment about sunken walls. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:19, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• "a long barrow, a form of early Neolithic burial mound". This is the first use of the term early Neolithic. I think you either need to explain it or describe the site as early Neolithic in the first line of the lead, as you do in the first line of the main text.

  I'm not sure I follow you -- the body is more specific than the lead, after all. A lay reader may baulk at "Neolithic"; I don't want to qualify it further in the lead if I can avoid it, since "early Neolithic" won't help those readers, and just "Neolithic" isn't wrong. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:19, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • I take it you re saying that the barrow dates to the same period so I think it would be better to spell this out - e.g. "a long barrow, a form of burial mound dating to the same period". Dudley Miles (talk) 07:29, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Actually I misread your comment, so let me start again. The barrow is likely to be even earlier than the enclosure, so I don't want to say "same period". I could cut "early" for the description of the barrow, both in the lead and the body, since the body makes it clear it would have predated the site. I could also make the lead "of a long ditch to the southeast that probably predated the enclosure, and which may have accompanied a long barrow, a form of Neolithic burial mound", which would be specific enough to remove the need for "early" in the lead. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 08:14, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    • That would be fine. Dudley Miles (talk) 15:07, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

      Done. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 15:12, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• "one of the largest causewayed enclosures known". In Britain or overall? The McMaster site at [7] describes it as "one of the largest Neolithic monuments in Britain".

  The sources only support Britain so I've changed this in the body and the lead; I suspect it is large compared to most of the ones in Europe too, but I don't have the sources to support that and can't remember where I saw it or thought I saw it. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:19, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• "Neolithic practices began to reach Britain in about 4050 BC". "Neolithic practices" is vague. As you will know, genetic evidence shows that it was Neolithic farmers who migrated to Britain at this time and replaced Mesolithic hunter-gatherers.

  I could make it something like "Neolithic practices, such as pottery and farming, began to reach ..." but strictly this isn't in the source, which has "Perhaps unsurprisingly, given its proximity to the mainland, the initial colonisation (‘Earliest Neolithic’) appears to have entered southeast England around 4050 cal BC (Fig. 1). Neolithic subsistence and other practices thereafter moved into south central England (‘Early Neolithic’) by the second half of the 38th century cal BC". Of course this is a reference to the Neolithic "package" of various practices that all appeared at the same time, but I would have to add another reference for that, so long as we think it's not SYNTH to do so? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:19, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • The reference to colonisation would support Neolithic farmers instead of the vague prectices. Dudley Miles (talk) 07:29, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Yes; changed to "farmers". Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 08:14, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• "the seafaring groups that crossed from mainland Europe". I have not come across "seafaring groups" in this context before. Do you mean that they were seafarers rather than farmers who migrated to Britain?

  No, it was just intended to say that they crossed by sea, so had to have some seafaring ability. I made it "the groups that crossed by sea from mainland Europe". Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:19, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• "Aerial photographs taken by the Royal Air Force in 1944 showed no sign of cropmarks". I thought cropmarks are normally only visible during droughts. Is this correct and could it be why they were not visible then?

  I think cropmarks can occasionally be visible other than in times of drought, but yes, my understanding is that drought is when you get to see them. Dyer doesn't say anything about the 1944 photos other than that the cropmarks are not visible, so I don't think I can say more, but presumably there was not a drought at the time. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:19, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• "Saxon sunken-featured buildings". Perhaps Anglo-Saxon is better. Saxon may refer to the Continental people.

  I'd like to stick with "Saxon" as that's how both the sources have it. Looking at Google Scholar it seems "Saxon" is at least as common as "Anglo-Saxon" when discussed these buildings. Perhaps they are also found on the continent so it's a term of art that is not restricted to Britain? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:19, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• You are inconsistent whether to abbreviate and convert terms such as metre, e.g. 70 m (230 ft) but two metres. It is a matter of personal preference (I prefer always spelling out) but I think it is better to be consistent.

  Now consistent; I decided to abbreviate all of them. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:19, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• I think that the final paragraph beginning "Radiocarbon" belongs in the 'Site' section.

  Moved. I'm not entirely sure about this, since the radiocarbon dates depend on the site finds, but I see why you suggest the move, and on balance I agree. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:19, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Another first class archaeological article from Mike. Dudley Miles (talk) 11:55, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Thanks! And thanks for the review; all responded to above with a couple of questions. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:19, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Support. Looks fine now. Dudley Miles (talk) 15:07, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Thanks -- and I made the remaining change per the comments above. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 15:12, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Wehwalt

I don't have much.

• "sally ports for defenders to emerge from and attack a besieging force.[note 2]" I feel the from in "emerge from" dangles a bit. Maybe "sally ports that defenders could emerge from and ..."

  I see your point; I made it "that defenders could emerge from to ...", which I hope connects the clauses smoothly. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:29, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• "There is also evidence that the enclosures played a role in funeral rites: food, pottery, and human remains have all been found deliberately deposited in the ditches.[11] The construction of these sites would have required substantial labour for clearing the land, preparing trees for use as posts or palisades, and digging the ditches, and would probably have been planned for some time in advance, as they were built in a single operation." The sentences of this paragraph don't feel connected, and the second sentence feels more general than the first. I guess I expect a paragraph to start with the general and work its way to the specific.

  The "also evidence" is meant to be a reference to the "Evidence of attacks" in the previous paragraph; I think this sentence was moved to the next paragraph to avoid a short paragraph of one sentence. I've moved it back and have now joined the remaining sentence with the following paragraph. Does that work? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:29, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• "either would make Freston a site of "potentially national importance"" Given the string of cites that followed, I think it would be helpful to the reader to say who is asserting this.

  The quote is from Martin (2007), who did the geophysical survey for English Heritage; the quote is then given verbatim in Carter et al. (2022). I decided to use the quote because Carter repeats it, so giving it more support, but although he supports it I think I just have to cite Martin as the source. I've done that -- let me know if that's enough or if you think Carter should be mentioned too. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:29, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's it.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:44, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the review; changes made and a couple of notes above. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:29, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support Wehwalt (talk) 16:36, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The Sims 4

Nominator(s): Theknine2 (talk) 16:24, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about the 2014 social simulation game The Sims 4. Initially released to mixed reception due to its limited variety of content and gameplay features, the game has since been significantly expanded upon by its developer Maxis, who has continued to support the game via free updates and many many DLC add-ons (thanks EA!). The game differentiates itself from previous entries in the series in several ways, such as: its stronger representations of gender identities and sexual orientations, fully-featured versions of the game on consoles, built-in online features (thankfully optional, unlike Maxis' SimCity, at launch), and being free-to-play from 2022 onwards.

This article achieved GA status in November 2022, after its third nomination (That was my fault, oops! I was a way more inexperienced editor back then.), and I have done a lot of work to the article to make it happen, including basically re-writing the whole thing. It's my first time attempting an FAC, so I am receptive to feedback and changes (including major ones, if necessary), but I do believe that the article has reached a point where it qualifies for FA status. Thank you in advance! Theknine2 (talk) 16:24, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Vacant0

Welcome to FAC! I'll have a look and review this. Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 12:05, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Ref 114: Change title to "The Sims 4 Review", add website: The Escapist
• Add the website for Ref 117, 122
• Ref 143: Change VGC to Video Games Chronicle
• Try to find a replacement for Ref 158 (Dexerto)

@Vacant0: Done. Theknine2 (talk) 15:58, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Please mention the EU/AU and UK release dates in the prose.
• Remove references for release dates in the infobox.

@Vacant0: Done. Theknine2 (talk) 17:29, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'll have a look at some parts of the prose this week. Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 12:11, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Wikilink the first mentions of macOS and Windows in the Gameplay section.
• "The newborn and infant life stages were introduced to the game in a 2023 update, and replace the baby life stage." → "The baby life stage was replaced by newborn and infant life stages in a 2023 update."
• "A new feature introduced in The Sims 4, is the ability to resize" – remove the comma
• "When constructing a building, buildings can have multiple floors" → "Buildings can be constructed with multiple floors."
• I did not notice any major issues in the rest of the Gameplay section. Everything looked understandable and clear.
• No issues spotted in Development.
• "A free playable demo of the Create-a-Sim feature was made available for download on August 12, 2014" – on which platforms?
• No issues were spotted in Release and marketing.
• In Missing features controversy, change "AI" to "artificial intelligence". Add the abbreviation AI in parenthesis if it's mentioned further in the article.
• I'm curious, but was there any reception regarding the soundtrack?

Another thing, @Theknine2:. Considering that this is your first nomination, FACs need to be assessed by several reviewers in order to get promoted. This also includes source and image reviews. It's soon gonna be a month since you've nominated this article for FAC, and so far, I've been the only one who left a review. So as a recommendation, you should follow the advice at §How to get the best from the process or simply ask WP:VG FAC editors to leave a review. Cheers and good luck, Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 15:18, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I’ve made the above changes. Thank you for your feedback so far! Theknine2 (talk) 12:17, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Coordinator note

This has been open for more than four weeks and has yet to pick up a support. Unless it attracts considerable movement towards a consensus to promote over the next three or four days I am afraid that it is liable to be archived. Gog the Mild (talk) 12:17, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry for the delay. I’ll get to working on this within the next two weeks! I’m still committed to working on the FAC. Theknine2 (talk) 17:47, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Review from Hurricanehink

Support - I figured I should since I have an open FAC with Hurricane Dennis. I've never played The Sims 4, just the first three, so I'm curious about the read.

• "The game was released in North America on September 2, 2014, for Windows" - odd to specify the release of North America, but not mention the rest of the world in the lead. And I get it, Europe/Japan was two days later, followed by the UK, so North America was the release to the world. But it was basically a worldwide release in September 2014. Also a nitpick, but you don't mention anywhere that the game was released in Japan, South Africa, or India, but that's available in ref 84.
• "It is the fourth major title in The Sims series, following The Sims 3 (2009). " - there should probably be a mention of The Sims 3 original release date with a citation, since the 2009 bit isn't backed up anywhere.
• Since you mention that it became free-to-play, is it worth mentioning how much the game cost at release?
• "Sims primarily make money by getting a job, and Sims need to develop skills for jobs; for example, Sims in the Culinary career track need to be proficient in the Cooking and Mixology skills." - I get that it's called the Sims, but could you find a way of saying "Sims" just once this sentence?
• "Paid downloadable content (DLC) packs expand the number of features, objects, worlds, and gameplay options available to play with." - the ending "available to play with" seems clunky, and would work fine ending at "options".
• "where individual Sims and families can be created and placed in the game world" - here is another example where I think you're saying "Sim" too many times, and just saying "where individuals can be created and placed". I mention that because you can also create two sims at the same time in Create-a-Sim and have them as roommates but not related, so it's not just necessarily families.
• "A new feature introduced in The Sims 4, is the ability to resize, move and duplicate entire rooms and buildings, along with all objects placed within the room or building." - should this be in new gameplay features?
• "A Sims-themed gaming headset, mouse, and "Plumbob" USB light designed by SteelSeries were released alongside the game's launch in 2014" - I feel like just quoting Plumbob doesn't do it justice what that word means, and how iconic that symbol is to the series. Might wanna explain what that is, at least until there's an article for Plumbob at some point in the future.
• "Content and feature updates continue to be developed for the game, as of 2024." - this might be a spot worth mentioning the upcoming expansion pack, since it's unsourced right now.

A pretty good read! Nothing major stood out to me, so it won't be much to get my support. Let me know if you have any questions about these comments. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 14:02, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi! Thanks for the review.

• According to WP:VG/DATE, release dates for non-English markets should not be included, since this game was developed and published in the US. I’ve changed the phrasing to simply reflect its earliest official release date.
• Added in prose
• Price probably isn’t necessary for the article (WP:NOTPRICE)
• Done
• Done
• Done - changed it to “households”, which is the term used in the game.
• It’s an enhancement of the Build Mode portion of the game (present in all Sims games), rather than a completely new feature.
• An explanation of the “Plumbob” probably belongs in the The Sims article rather than here. (It is a good suggestion) I can’t currently find citations specifically discussing the Plumbob, so I’ll leave it as is for now.
• I’ve added a relevant citation, though it’s not about the expansion pack.

Theknine2 (talk) 13:02, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the quick replies, happy to support! ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 15:33, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Leroy Chollet

Nominator(s): Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 03:54, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I first read about Leroy Chollet in a local newspaper that mentioned him as an African American basketball player who played in the Whites-only inaugural NBA Finals because he did not tell anybody that he was Black. That sounded a bit off, so I googled him but didn't find much. The Wikipedia article was a stub. As I read about the guy, I expanded his article. This is my first nomination, so feel free to offer any guidance on this process. Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 03:54, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

750h

Lovely article. I'll take a look. All of the suggestions listed may be rejected with justification. 750h+ 16:05, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

lead

• and became a teacher and varsity head coach for the school. I'd remove "for the school"; i think the start of the sentence does the job

early life

No problems here. 750h+ 16:05, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

college carreer

• colleges were segregated, and neither remove the comma
• rival colleges Louisiana State University (LSU) and Tulane remove the acronym "(LSU)", as it's not used later in the article

professional career

• ball to the teams' veteran players ==> "ball to the team's veteran players"

later life

• No problems here. 750h+ 16:05, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Excellent work for a first nomination, short and sweet article, hope we'll be seeing this on the main page as TFA soon! 750h+ 16:05, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, 750h+, I've addressed the comments above in the article,[8] Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 23:11, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support. 750h+ 23:27, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Mike Christie

I did the GA review for this and am glad to see it here at FAC. I left some comments on the article talk page in preparation for FAC, and I see those have been dealt with, but rereading the article now I have a couple more comments.

• I can see why the Loyola national championship is mentioned in the first sentence, but it's awkward because the third sentence has to repeat the information, since we're recounting his timeline and that's early in it. It might be best to cut the first sentence all the way down to "was an American professional basketball player", and let the succeeding sentences tell the story.
• Suggest adding "He died in 1998" to the end of the lead.
• In the lead, "When Chollet's African American heritage was revealed" is followed by a note giving the details of his paternal great-grandmother, and that note is used again in the body of the article. I don't see any reason why those details can't be brought into the body, and for the lead I'd suggest something like this: "Chollet had one black great-grandparent, and when this was revealed he was pressured into leaving Loyola. He moved to New York ..."
• Why is note 3 in a note instead of in the body of the article? It's only marginally relevant to Chollet, but if we're going to include it at all I think it's interesting enough to be promoted to the body of the article.
• Similarly can we incorporate notes 4 and 5 into the article? These are good quotes; no reason to bury them; and "could not influence the unfolding events" is not as effective as the quotes it summarizes.
• "Louisiana newspapers did not openly publish their ancestry": what is meant by "openly publish"? I'm sure this isn't in contrast to clandestinely publishing their ancestry, but I don't know what is intended instead.
• Can we get links for the BAA and NBL, and a link in the body for the Syracuse Nationals (currently only linked in the lead and infobox).
• "Chollet was the varsity head coach from 1956 to 1960 and retired from teaching in 1985. He was an administrator for community sports programs at the Lakewood Recreation Department from 1960 to 1980": any reason this is out of chronological order? Can we mention his retirement after his work for Lakewood Recreation Department, in other words?

-- Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:40, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks, Mike Christie, addressed in article,^[9] Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 14:32, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support; fixes look good. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 15:53, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

• "he became a role player" - what's a "role player"? Is there an appropriate link? I presume it doesn't mean that he played Dungeons & Dragons ;-)
• "Chollet signed with the Syracuse Nationals" - link the Nats
• "In the NBA, Chollet was a reserve guard tasked with facilitating" - are there appropriate links to whatever a "reserve guard" is and whatever "facilitating" is?
• "Chollet was the varsity head coach" - what does this mean? "Varsity" would suggest to me a university, but it was a high school.....?
• That's all I got on prose -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 16:14, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Thanks, ChrisTheDude! Linked the Nats. I've added "role player" to the glossary of basketball terms and added a link to this article's lead. In the body, I've tried to explain his role in the NBA with less jargon. Is that more clear? Regarding "varsity", I've specified that he was a high school varsity coach and added piped links to varsity team. In high school, it contrasts with a JV or freshman coach. Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 03:29, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Support -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:29, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Image and source review

Images are well placed. Have the newspapers been checked for a copyright notice? Does the ALT text for the second image have to be this long. Source-wise, is there a reason for the inconsistent application of "via newspapers.com."? What makes Statscrew a reliable source? Newspapers seem to be inconsistently formatted, both between the "References" and "Sources" section. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 16:28, 21 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• I checked the newspapers for copyright notices.
• The alt text is longer for one image because it includes the caption from the newspaper. This makes the text in the image accessible (Example 3). To shorten it, I'd need to crop out the caption.
• Removed "via newspapers.com".
• I'm basing the reliability of Stats Crew on WP:USEBYOTHERS. It has been cited by a variety of reliable news sources,[10][11][12] and I don't see any doubting it. The article cites it only for the table of ABL stats, so if it doesn't meet FA standards, I can remove that two-line table.
• For consistency, I've used similar parameters for all the newspaper sources.[13] The sources cited inline and left out of the "References" section list are all primary sources.

Thanks for checking it out, Jo-Jo Eumerus, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 18:19, 21 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The reason why I am questioning Stats Crew is because I don't see a clear editorial mechanism. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:10, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Jo-Jo Eumerus: Gotcha, I've removed the ABL stats cited to Stats Crew. It's just there as an external link now. Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 13:29, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Seems OK. Unrelated to sourcing, but ALS should be spelled out IMO. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 06:34, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Jo-Jo Eumerus: Done. Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 12:59, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Seems like this passes. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 13:44, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Hi Jo-Jo, as a first-timer, this one also needs a source to text fidelity check and a plagiarism check. Is this something you may feel like covering? Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 12:12, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Spot-check

• 1 Can I have a copy of this source?
• 2 Where does it discuss retirement?
  • Check [37] at the end of the sentence, "The Canisius grad said during the past season that it would be his last year. [in the ABL] [...] LeRoy will be moving into a new field this Fall, that of high school coaching and teaching." I added citation [2] to the end of the paragraph because I was citing older sources and needed a more recent overview. "Career" lists the years he played professional basketball or coached high school basketball. Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 00:33, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• 3 Can I have a copy of this source?
• 5 Can I have a copy of this source?
• 7 Can I have a copy of this source?
• 8 Can I have a copy of this source?
• 9 Can I have a copy of this source?
• 10 Can I have a copy of this source?
• 12 Can I have a copy of this source?
• 16 That doesn't say "Chollet parents endured harassment" exactly, nor "both brothers were pushed out of New Orleans' white universities"
  • I messed that one up when reformatting something else. I've added the citation to Lewis (2020) at the end of the sentence. It says, "Alfred and his wife, Olga, had been harassed after word got out about their lineage". Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 00:34, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• 17 Can I have a copy of this source?
• 19 It doesn't say "Canisius later claimed Leroy Chollet as their first African American basketball player"
  • That 2023 source says "the school claims Chollet as its first African-American basketball player". Is the concern about changing the tense? Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 00:42, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  No, just an oversight. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:44, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• 23 Can I have a copy of this source?
• 24 OK
• 25 Can I have a copy of this source?
• 27 Where does it say that?
  • "Even with the impressive National in its name, the NBL remained primarily based in the Midwest and Great Lakes region during its life span. Despite its geographical limits, the NBL became the premier and most stable basketball league of its era. [...] During its first six seasons, when the league was largely populated by pre-merger players, the NBA was dependent on and dominated by the old NBL teams. The first six NBA champions were former NBL teams. Even the franchises finishing as Finals runners-up were mainly from the NBL." Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 00:44, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• 28 Where is "Syracuse was one of the league's smallest markets"? Also, I am not sure that "playing time" was the main issue going by the source.
  • "Syracuse. I was there longer than anywhere else, as both a player and coach. It was one of the smallest towns in the league," and "Cervi did not use Chollet much [...] Chollet did not send Cervi in until the last 30 seconds or so—about the usual time Cervi sent in Leroy". Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 00:45, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• 29 Can I have a copy of this source?
• 30 Can I have a copy of this source?
• 38 Can I have a copy of this source?

I notice that there is an inconsistent citation format between the notes and the article text. Unrelated, but I wonder if Milan Cemetery could be linked anywhere - for me it sounds like Milan the Italian city. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 13:35, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Jo-Jo Eumerus: I appreciate you checking them out. In one case above, I somehow removed a citation without realizing it and have put it back. In the others I've offered quotes. I've wiki-linked Milan to Milan, Ohio. Regarding "an inconsistent citation format between the notes and the article text", does that mean using citation footnotes in the explanatory footnotes? That's worse for accessibility (on mobile), but I can do that if it's an FA requirement. To provide a copy of the sources noted above, can I email you? Since you're catching some errors, I'm going to try to double-check the cited pages first. Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 00:53, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes (on the email thing) and yes (the footnotes and article text should be using the same citation style) Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:49, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Seattle Kraken

Nominator(s): XR228 (talk) 02:28, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The Seattle Kraken are a team that competes in the National Hockey League. They are the league's newest team, having been founded in 2018 and playing their first game in 2021. I think this article meets the FA criteria. Also, mind that this is my first FA nomination; I've done some FL nominations before, but nothing like this. Nevertheless, feel free to give a review. Thanks. XR228 (talk) 02:28, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Drive by comments the statement that ""Kraken" was a name that was already popular with fans prior to its official adoption" is cited to a spammy promotional article on the NHL website. If this is a reliable source, which I doubt, it would be better to say that the name was chosen as it rated best through market testing or similar. Independent sourcing would be much superior. The para starting with "Buoy, since his introduction, has been in a feud with Bissonnette" is also written in-universe, and oddly presents the mascot as being an actual person rather than a PR thing. Nick-D (talk) 10:51, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Nick-D: I have made the changes. I deleted the part about the Kraken being a popular name before announcement, and I edited the paragraph about Buoy and Bissonnette. XR228 (talk) 22:36, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

Lead

• There should not normally be citations in the lead, as everything in the lead should also be in the body and cited there. On that note, most of the stuff in the second paragraph is not mentioned anywhere in the body. Nothing should be only in the lead, so you need to find a way to work that into the body. The lead is also quite short and could summarise more of the article - it doesn't contain anything about team identity, for example.

Establishment (2017–2021)

• Literally every paragraph starts "On [date]". Find a way to vary the language. The paragraphs are also incredibly short (two are just a single sentence) so they should be merged into a smaller number of longer paragraphs.
• NHL should be written out in full on the first usage with the abbreviation in brackets (in the body as well as the lead)
• Seattle should be linked on first usage in the body
• "from their respective teams (Edmonton, Dallas, and Florida, respectively.)" - that full stop should be outside the brackets
• "On July 23, The first round" - T on the should not be capitalised mid-sentence
• More to follow....... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 15:59, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  @ChrisTheDude: I have made the changes for the establishment section. XR228 (talk) 00:32, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  You still have literally every paragraph in that section starting with "On [date]". There must be a way to vary this a bit.......? -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 06:23, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

First seasons (2021–present)

• "the Kraken signed forwards Alexander Wennberg, Jaden Schwartz, and goaltender Philipp Grubauer." => the Kraken signed forwards Alexander Wennberg and Jaden Schwartz, and goaltender Philipp Grubauer.
• In the first paragraph you have four consecutive sentences all starting "The Kraken". Try and rewrite to avoid this. You could use "the team", "the franchise", etc.....
• "Jones led the Kraken through an 8-game win streak" => "Jones led the Kraken through an eight-game win streak"
• "to win their first playoff series against the defending Stanley Cup champions." - in the lead you used "Stanley Cup champion" (singular). Which is correct in US English?

Arena

• "Amazon bought the naming rights to Climate Pledge Arena" - they can't have done, as it wasn't called that at the time
• "Vince Dunn scored the first-ever Kraken goal in the arena's history" => "Vince Dunn scored the first Kraken goal in the arena's history"
• "The Kraken's first-ever shutout win at home" => "The Kraken's first shutout win at home"

Logos and uniforms

• "The event was held under the banner of "Release the Kraken"" - what event? This is literally the start of the section and no "event" has been mentioned.
• "The franchise's promotional materials state that it was adopted" - what is "it"? Presumably the team name?
• "For the 2024 NHL Winter Classic, the Kraken wore a uniform inspired by the Seattle Metropolitans" - link Metropolitans. Also, see my comment above about adding info about the Metropolitans to the body as well as the lead.
• "walked into to their home arena" - there is a stray word in there
• Everything in the "see also" section is already linked in the article, so you can delete this entire section.
• That's what I got right to the end :-) -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 06:35, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  @ChrisTheDude: I have made all the changes except for the changes to the lead, I'll get to work on it soon. XR228 (talk) 17:38, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  @ChrisTheDude: Just fixed the lead. XR228 (talk) 17:45, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  You still have a citation in the lead, which isn't needed if the info is sourced in the body, and I still feel that "For the 2024 NHL Winter Classic, the Kraken wore a uniform inspired by the Seattle Metropolitans" needs some explanation/context of who/what the Metropolitans are/were. Yes, I realise it's linked, but a reader shouldn't have to click away to another article to find that they were another ice hockey team as opposed to a baseball team or a marching band or any of the many other things that a team's uniform could conceivably pay tribute to...... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:07, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  @ChrisTheDude: Fixed it. XR228 (talk) 17:31, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  @ChrisTheDude XR228 (talk) 18:09, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Support -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 18:44, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

HF

Will review. Hog Farm _Talk 22:06, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• "The only time the Kraken qualified for the Stanley Cup playoffs was in 2023." - I would go with "have qualified"; the past tense is weird for a team that is still active
• "voted 7–1 to approve a memorandum of understanding between the city of Seattle and the Los Angeles-based Oak View Group," is the article text; the source text is " voted 7-1 to approve a Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) between the city and the Los Angeles-based Oak View Group", this is close paraphrasing
• "he led first-time draft-eligible NCAA players in goals, with 10" in article vs "led first-time draft-eligible NCAA players in goals" in source. Yes, there's limited ways to rephrase this, but it's better to at least make some changes rather than go with the direct source wording in places like this
• "Beniers scored 24 points in 24 games during the previous season" - this needs some sort of link or explanation to indicate to non-hockey fans what a point is in hockey
• "Grubauer had been considered one of the top names on the market prior to the beginning of free agency" - considered by whom? Does the source indicate that this is a consensus view, or is attribution to the source of this opinion needed?
• "in what would be a 4–2 loss to the Pacific Northwest rival Vancouver Canucks" - is it really appropriate to call this a rivalry? The source mainly seems to be talking about how this was expected to become a rivalry in the future. How can a team really have a rivalry early on in its first season?
• "Philipp Grubauer recorded the franchise's first shutout, making 19 saves in a 3–0 victory against the New York Islanders" - first, when was this, and second, I think there needs to be some sort of link for saves in here for non-hockey fans
• "in last place of the Pacific Division with a 27–49–6 record and 60 points" - and because "points" here means something different than when discussing the player's 24 points in 24 games earlier, this also needs some sort of explanation
• "In early January, Jones led the Kraken through an eight-game win streak. While doing, so the franchise became the first team to win all seven games of a seven-game road trip" - the source doesn't seem to be pointing out Jones' leadership or performance in this win streak
• "and the first wild card spot in the Western Conference" - link for Western Conference and wild card?
• "On April 30, the Kraken defeated the Colorado Avalanche in the opening round, becoming the first expansion team in NHL history to win their first playoff series against the defending Stanley Cup champion" - so this sounds like they won a single wild card game, while the use of the term "series" leaves open the possibility that this is a multi-game series. Can it be stated directly if this is a single wild card game?
• "The Kraken finished their season with a 34–35–13 record and 81 points" - where does this standing finish within the conference?
• "The arena, at Seattle Center, is a $600 million redevelopment of the former KeyArena" - the $600 million is a planned figure, our article at Climate Pledge Arena states that the final cost was $1.15 billion, see also this Seattle Times headline I can't access
• "The team plays the Nirvana song "Lithium" after every Kraken goal at home" - is this still a thing? The source is from less than two weeks after the team's first season (I know Nirvana had connections to the Seattle area, but that seems like a very odd celebratory song choice)
• "Bell, Demetrius (July 23, 2020). "Seattle Releases The 'Kraken' Nickname, Logos And Colors Ahead Of 2021–22 NHL Debut". Forbes. Retrieved March 23, 2024." - this is a Forbes contributor piece, which is not a reliable source. See WP:FORBESCON
• "he uniform was officially unveiled on November 22, 2023, but was leaked four days earlier when players from the National Basketball Association's Utah Jazz walked into their home arena wearing it" - we can't source something happening on November 22 to a source from November 18
• "the Kraken promoted a "team dog" named Davy Jones. " - why the link to the Pirate of the Caribbean character? The source doesn't mention the Pirates of the Caribbean at all that I can find, and the Davy Jones concept is much older than those movies - see Davy Jones' locker
• "forward and Everett Silvertips commentator Al Kinisky to replace him" - link Everett Silvertips
• "For radio, Kraken games are broadcast on KJR-FM 93.3 and KJR 950 AM, the flagship stations of the Kraken Audio Network. During a schedule conflict, some games may be heard on 96.5 KJAQ." - why is this information in the TV section when there is a radio section, where the same stuff is also stated?
• I think some sort of explanation is needed for the structure of the NHL minor leagues. Otherwise, it is a bit confusing for the reader to read about AHL and ECHL affiliates. I also find it very confusing to read about the team sharing a minor leage affiliate when my main sports fandom is MLB, where such a minor league affiliate sharing would not be possible
• I don't know that all these non-notable people need listed for the minority ownership. There's often quite a few minority owners for sports teams like that and I don't know that this is due detail (I know as a Kansas City Royals fan that the team has a whole bunch of minority owners)
• " Morse, Dan (August 16, 2022). "Alison Lukan & Nick Olczyk to join Kraken broadcast team this season". Davy Jones' Locker Room. Archived from the original on February 6, 2023. Retrieved August 27, 2022." - the SBNation team-centric blogs generally have much lower editorial standards than the main site. What makes this blog a high-quality reliable source?

I think that's it for my first round of comments; due to some of the concerns above I don't plan on entering into a support or oppose declaration until after a source review addressing spot-checks and source reliability. Hog Farm _Talk 23:44, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Hog Farm: I have made the changes. Also, this morning, the Kraken announced something called the Kraken Hockey Network, so info about that has been added to the broadcast section. XR228 (talk) 01:10, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'll take another look at this once it passes its source review. Hog Farm _Talk 22:27, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Coordinator comment

Going into five weeks and this nom hasn't reached a consensus to promote. I'm adding it to Urgents, but unless it receives several further in depth reviews over the next week or so it is likely going to be archived. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^talk 18:33, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

2015 KNVB Cup final

Nominator(s): Eem dik doun in toene (talk) 10:28, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

3 May 2015, one of the best days of my life. My favourite (local) football club winning something for the first (and thus far, only) time. Travelling down to Rotterdam with several family members, seeing people on viaducts waving and cheering on the passing buses with us fans (even ca. 100 km down the route), and the incredible (but tense) atmosphere in the stadium, is something I won't forget. There's one image in the article, which is not mine, as the few pictures I took were all a bit blurry ;) I've used online and newspaper articles to try and give a comprehensive (and of course unbiased) view. All comments are appreciated! Eem dik doun in toene (talk) 10:28, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Placeholder

• I will take a look at this one but probably not till after the weekend -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 11:49, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

• Image is appropriate licensed, but the article would benefit from having additional imagery. Nikkimaria (talk) 05:42, 7 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Nikkimaria: I agree, added another image. Eem dik doun in toene (talk) 11:52, 7 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

• "Groningen reached the final of the competition once before" => "Groningen had reached the final of the competition once before"
• "PEC Zwolle began, as a professional side and defending KNVB Cup champions, their campaign" => "As a professional side, defending KNVB Cup champions PEC Zwolle began their campaign"
• "In the last minutes of the match" - I think "In the closing minutes of the match" works better
• "VVV equalised, but the goal was disallowed" - if it was disallowed then they didn't equalise. I suggest "VVV appeared to have equalised, but the goal was disallowed"
• "it was the sixth time it happened since 1956" => "it was only the sixth time it had happened since 1956"
• "It was the seventh time both sides met" => "It was the seventh time the two sides met"
• "Groningen also entered the 2014–15 KNVB Cup in the second round" would suffice, I think
• "found the back of the Vitesse net in the rebound" => "found the back of the Vitesse net on the rebound"
• "showed his squad video messages of their family members before the match" => "showed his squad video messages from their family members before the match"
• "Jans was hailed as a "motivator"" => "he was hailed as a "motivator"" (avoids repetition of his name)
• "Groningen were already 1–0 down after two minutes when Romário scored, the fastest goal in KNVB Cup final history" - this is slightly confusing as a standalone sentence. I suggest joining it to the previous sentence as "reached the final once before when they lost 4–1 to PSV in 1989;[25] PSV's Romário scored after two minutes, the fastest goal in KNVB Cup final history"
• "played each other once in the Eredivisie during the season, with Zwolle winning 2–0 at home" - is the league not a double round-robin? Why did they only play each other once?
• Jans image caption needs a full stop
• "but played since 2012 for PEC" => "but had played for PEC since 2012"
• "Van de Looi was pleased for the fans that they claimed the club's first major honour" => "Van de Looi was pleased for the fans that the team had claimed the club's first major honour" (avoids the suggestion that it was the fans who had claimed it)
• That's what I got! -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:16, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • ChrisTheDude, thanks very much Chris! Addressed your comments, and tried to clarify/expand on the point that PEC and Groningen had played each other once in the league (the next league meeting between the two was a week later). Eem dik doun in toene (talk) 14:34, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Support -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:31, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Mike Christie

I've copyedited; let me know if you disagree with any of the changes I made.

• "stated that Van de Looi mainly formed his plans on the quality of his players": a bit vague; can we be clearer about what Van de Looi meant by this?
• "RTV Noord stated that Groningen were more nervous than PEC; several minutes later Groningen grew into the game". Suggest "Early in the game the RTV Noord coverage suggested that Groningen seemed more nervous than PEC". I don't think the second half of the sentence is worth keeping; this is a live blog, not a post-match analysis, and "grew into the game" is vague.
• "Antonia reached Juninho Bacuna, but he misjudged the ball": "reached"? What is this saying?

That's all I have. It's hard to get this sort of article to flow smoothly, with engaging prose, but I think this gets there. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 13:22, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• • Thank you very much, Mike. The copyedit definitely is an improvement, IMO. I also tried to reword/clarify the three sentences mentioned here. I sometimes found it hard to find the right English words for some Dutch text in the references, but I'm glad it gets there:) Eem dik doun in toene (talk) 14:47, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Fixes look good; support. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 18:44, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Coordinator comment

Going into five weeks and this nom hasn't reached a consensus to promote. I'm adding it to Urgents, but unless it receives several further in depth reviews over the next week or so it's liable to time out. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^talk 18:33, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs - I understand this nom still needs a source review and probably another content review, but with 2 supports and 0 opposes, it is closer to a promotion than to being archived, right? Eem dik doun in toene (talk) 06:43, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yugoslav torpedo boat T6

Nominator(s): Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:49, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

T6 was a dinky little steam-driven torpedo boat that started life as an Austro-Hungarian vessel. She saw extensive service in the Adriatic Sea in the latter stages of WWI, performing convoy, escort, patrol and minesweeping tasks, and anti-submarine operations. After WWI she was taken over by the new South Slav state, the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes – which was renamed Yugoslavia in 1929. She was captured by the Italians during the Axis invasion of Yugoslavia in April 1941, and despite her age the Italians put her to good use on coastal and second-line escort duties in the Adriatic. When the Italians capitulated in September 1943, her crew tried to reach an Allied port, but scuttled her when this proved impossible. This article is part of the 36-article Featured topic, Ships of the Royal Yugoslav Navy, that I am slowing improving to the point where every article and list is Featured (I'm about two-thirds of the way there). Have at it! Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:49, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

File:Yugoslav torpedo boat T3.jpg - a reprint of the source just credits the image to "Photo, Official" - could you please explain where the indication is that this is a British official photo, rather than a Yugoslav one?

The answer to this is with reference to the captions of photographs of RN ships in the same book, which have exactly the same annotation, "Photo, Official", whereas French ships for example, have "French Navy, Official" (see page 139 for an example of the latter). I consider it is entirely reasonable to assume that because it does not say "Yugoslav Navy, Official", but uses the same annotation as RN vessels, that it was taken by a RN source (probably the naval attache, or by a RN ship on a show the flag visit). Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:12, 21 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I will also note that the caption doesn't quite work right now - it's technically unsourced since the distinction is never made in this article that T-3 was of the T type instead of the F type. The same source this image is from does include a photo of one of the two-funnel models of these torpedo boats, but it's of much lower quality so I can understand why it is not used. Hog Farm _Talk 23:01, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think it is necessary to cite the fact that T3 was a T-group boat as it is very unlikely to be challenged. I could add it and a citation to the caption if you think it is necessary, but it seems like overkill to me. An explanation of the distinction is made per "The F-group had two funnels rather than the single funnel of the T-group" under Description and construction. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:12, 21 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

G'day Hog Farm. See what you think of my responses above. Thanks so much for having a look! Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:12, 21 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Okay - passing on the image review. Hog Farm _Talk 13:33, 7 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sammi Brie

Solid article. Paragraphs and sentences occasionally need splitting, and I have some thoughts on commas. Ping me when all of this is handled. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 02:40, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Lead:

• she was armed with two 66 mm (2.6 in) guns and four 450 mm (17.7 in) torpedo tubes, and could carry 10–12 naval mines One subject: "she". Remove the comma. WP:CINS

Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:30, 21 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Background:

• Would a paragraph split be useful?

Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:30, 21 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• In such circumstances, there would be a need for a torpedo boat that could sail from the Austro-Hungarian Navy (German: kaiserliche und königliche Kriegsmarine, Hungarian: Császári és Királyi Haditengerészet) base at the Bocche di Cattaro (the Bocche or Bay of Kotor) to the strait during the night, locate and attack blockading ships and return to port before morning. Consider converting the translation note to a footnote to improve readability in this complex sentence.

Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:09, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• as diesels with the necessary power were not available, and the Austro-Hungarian Navy did not have the practical experience to run turbo-electric boats Remove comma as this is part of one clause.

Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:09, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Description and construction:

• The 250t-class F-group boats had short raised forecastles and an open bridge, and were fast and agile Remove comma CinS

Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:14, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• I'd recommend splitting the first paragraph unless it is like this in other articles of the FT.

Good point, it has become larger over time as more material has become available, and is now a bit unwieldy. I have reorganised it a bit, then split it. See what you think? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:14, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• with the forward gun mounted on the forecastle, and the aft gun on the quarterdeck Remove comma
• with one pair mounted between the forecastle and bridge, and the other aft of the mainmast Remove comma

Both done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:14, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• 93 F was laid down on 9 January 1915, launched on 25 November, and commissioned on 4 April 1916 Remove comma after 25 November to be consistent with this article's non-use of serial comma. (There is one serial comma later that is fine because of the complexity of the phrase)

Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:14, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Career:

• The original concept of operation for the 250t-class boats was that they would sail in a flotilla at the rear of a cruising battle formation, and were to intervene Remove comma

Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:18, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• On 29 October she underwent Comma after "29 October" for consistency with the other date prepositional clauses in this paragraph

Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:18, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• In June, 93, along with 96, and Csikós and her sister ships Wildfang and Velebit were try the comma order In June, 93, along with 96 as well as Csikós and her sister ships Wildfang and Velebit, were

Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:18, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• During 1917, 93 conducted further minesweeping missions, and escorted 36 convoys. Remove comma before "and" (CinS). Think of it this way. Is the part after the conjunction a standalone sentence conceivably? Not "Escorted 36 convoys.".

Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:18, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• of Pag, but had to terminate Remove comma.

Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:18, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• On 20 August, 93 was transferred to the Bocche, and was part of the 1st Torpedo Flotilla Remove comma (CinS)

Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:18, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• On 29 September, 93 along with 82, 87 and 96, and the Ersatz Triglav-class destroyers Lika, Dukla and Uzsok try On 29 September, 93 along with 82, 87 and 96 plus the Ersatz Triglav-class destroyers Lika, Dukla and Uzsok,

Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:18, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• As the end of the war approached in November and the Austro-Hungarian Empire broke apart, on 1 November 93 was ceded to the State of Slovenes, Croats and Serbs Restructure so "1 November 93" is not stuck together and could be mistaken for a date. Splitting the description of the SSCS into its own sentence ("This was...") will help.

I think I have addressed this, perhaps not exactly as you envisaged. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:18, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Skradin where the population begged them to leave the harbour to avoid the town being bombed by the Italians. Add comma after Skradin for readability

Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:18, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• In response, Kern ordered T6 to escort Perun to the Bay of Kotor, and the two vessels arrived there the next day without incident, where T6's malfunctioning gun was repaired and she was loaded with weapons, supplies and extra men and sent to Šibenik. Split this sentence: In response, Kern ordered T6 to escort Perun to the Bay of Kotor; the two vessels arrived there the next day without incident. There, T6's malfunctioning gun was repaired; she was loaded with weapons, supplies and extra men and sent to Šibenik.

Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:18, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• the Axis puppet fascist state, the Independent State of Croatia (NDH) try the Independent State of Croatia (NDH), an Axis puppet fascist state

Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:18, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• T6's commander, a Slovene, was not interested in serving in a Croatian navy, and abandoned Remove comma after "navy" CinS

Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:18, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• join NDH navy missing "the"

Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:18, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

G'day Sammi Brie, all done I reckon. See what you think? Thanks for taking a look, apologies for the delay in addressing your comments. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:18, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Happy to Support after taking a look. My issues are rectified. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 02:32, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Pendright

Placeholder - Pendright (talk) 03:10, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Matarisvan

Hi Peacemaker67, my comments:

• Why have we not linked to the Skoda 7 cm gun article in the lead when we have linked to it in the infobox?

Good question. Fixed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:39, 13 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• "...Schwarzlose M.7/12 machine gun carried for anti-aircraft work": prefix "carried" with "was" for grammatical accuracy?

Wow, not sure how that got through previous reviews... Fixed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:39, 13 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• In the WWI subsection, "the naval historian Zvonimir Freivogel" is too long, just "Freivogel" may bw enough since he was introduced just two paragraphs ago.

Ah yes, fixed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:39, 13 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Link to Brijuni islands?

It is already piped to the Fasana Channel, but no harm in linking directly. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:39, 13 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Link to Strojne Tovarne (Iskra)?

Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:39, 13 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• How exactly did the ship make a good impression in Malta? Was it the sailors' conduct, the ship's power or something else?
• Link to Zablaće (Šabac) or Zablaće (Čačak), whichever one the source is referring to?
• "so took the": "so he took the"?
• "join NDH navy": "join the NDH navy"?
• In the biblio, link to Norman Friedman and Velimir Terzić?
• Add 44888337 as the JSTOR ID for Vego 1982?
• As an aside, would you be ok with adding DOIs for the books? These enable easier access than ISBNs and I faintly recall that there is an MOS on providing as many access options as possible. If you do wish to, then Djukanović 2023 and Ramet 2006 do have DOIs available.

That's all from me, will do a source review soon. Cheers Matarisvan (talk) 09:14, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Coordinator comment

Going into five weeks and this nom hasn't garnered a single support. Unless it receives several further in depth reviews over the next week or so it's most likely going to be archived. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^talk 18:57, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ada Wong

Nominator(s): JokEobard (talk) 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 22:37, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about a character from the Resident Evil game and film series; who is known for her red dress.

The article has undergone a lot of changes due to the reviewers at the 2nd peer review. It received several reviews from Aoba47, PanagiotisZois, Panini!, and Crisco 1492 (thanks for their help). Because of it, I feel like the article is ready for the FA criteria. Thank you! 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 22:37, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Panagiotis Zois

Given my involvement with heavily rewriting the content of the "Reception" section, could I even take part in this FAC? I feel like a "conflict-of-interest" situation might arise.--PanagiotisZois (talk) 13:46, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hey. I don't think thats a problem in fact some reviewers wants to assist nominators more in a different way so that they can easily resolve any issues. Additionally, you were also not the author. Just in case you don't want to continue the review, you can strike it out. Thanks! Regards 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 14:05, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

One thing I wanted to ask is about the "Reception" section. The part about the Dragon Lady trope is interesting, but as it stands, only two sources are used. Are there at least one-two more sources discussing this trope that could be added? PanagiotisZois (talk) 09:31, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi PanagiotisZois. No, I went throughout and couldn't find more. 🍕BP!🍕 (🔔) 09:44, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's unfortunate, but understandable. All right. I've gone over the whole article again. It look really good. There are a few things I would like see changed, but that's more of personal taste, and not something that is required to make the article better. Taking this into account, I support this article's promotion. Always nice to see articles of female character get more love and attention. PanagiotisZois (talk) 13:18, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! 🍕BP!🍕 (🔔) 13:22, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Vacant0

Will review this again. Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 10:38, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Ref 43 missing page(s).

Hi Vacant0. I don't think they need book pages since the book itself contains almost everything about the RE plot; and as usual almost the entire book pages mentions Ada (same with the usage of that sources from Jill Valentine). 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 12:58, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• I do not see any particular issues with references and their reliability. Valnet sources are used, though TheGamer is now considered reliable.

I only used two TheGamer, but it is marked reliable unlike the content before. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 12:58, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• First ref in the Ref 46 is still confusing me. Do you have an issue number or ISSN of the comic book?

Not at all. I ended up removing the Chinese comic book source. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 12:58, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Spotchecked:

• In Resident Evil series: Ref 14, 15, 18, 20, 22, 25 (only mentions "Also, completion of Separate Ways will further flesh out new information files which get added to "Ada's Report."")

Nice caught! I Ended up removing the claim of ref 25 because I cannot support the claim. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 13:31, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Other appearances: Ref 31, 33, 39, 47
• Concept and design: Ref 49, 54, 56, 58, 62
• Voice-over and live-action actresses: Ref 4, 12
• Reception: Ref 8, 66, 75, 76

I'll take another look at the prose by the end of the week and will then decide my vote. Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 13:24, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! Take your time 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 13:31, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• I gave the article another read. It has certainly been improved since the last FAC, so, again, you have my support. Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 14:39, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Crisco 1492

• Just a quick question - I'll have another read later, as this has changed a lot since the peer review. Does Jennings offer any arguments for why Ada "demonstrate[s] the intersectional potential of the feminine gaze?" The next line, that Jennings criticized the game's whitewashing of her heritage, suggests to me that Jennings was arguing that Ada's representation as both a woman and as a person of Asian descent brought more potential agency to the character. Why, though? Is this worth a footnote, or even just a bit of a more explicit clause explaining her argument?  — Chris Woodrich (talk) 00:51, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Chris Woodrich I expanded a bit [14], and yeah she mentioned about her representation as a woman. I hope this is fine for you as a non-native English speaker. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 02:18, 11 September 2024 (UTC)<[reply]

• To avoid too much mark-up, we had some discussion of Jennings' arguments at my talk page. Linked here for transparency.  — Chris Woodrich (talk) 14:52, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Lede

• Worth mentioning in the lede that Lily Gao has reprised the role in the most recent release?

I'm not sure if this is needed as this may be potentially being removed by my co-nom, but I added it [15] 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 04:43, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Is there any way to avoid mentioning Resident Evil 2 twice in two sentences? I had reworked it to use "latter", but that was reverted. Maybe "the prototype for the sequel"? — Chris Woodrich (talk) 09:17, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  My conom reverted it. I replaced it now with "sequel". 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 09:52, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Appearances

• After the restructuring, it's not clear who Alice is on first mention.

Added [16] 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 04:43, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• What's the distinction between an alternate skin and a costume? — Chris Woodrich (talk) 01:07, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Replaced the "costume" as an "alternate skin" [17]. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 04:43, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Concept and design

• "randomly and without much thought" - This is a bit awkwardly phrased. Any means of rewording this? — Chris Woodrich (talk) 14:50, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hmmm, not sure how since Kadoi said he "randomly thought her name without much thought" in the first Resident Evil. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 21:17, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• If that's the word he used, we may stray too much if we rephrase it. It's a minor quibble, anyways. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 21:26, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• "Separate Ways" is mentioned three times in three sentences. Any chance of reworking this to avoid the repetition?

Honestly, I prefer to repeat than to say DLC imor minigame because it confuses readers. In the original RE4, it is a minigame; but in the remake it is now DLC. Or you got any suggestion? 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 21:17, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• I reworked it with this edit. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 21:26, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Reception

• For the feminist critiques of the character, I was wondering if there is any consideration of the deuteragonist in Ada's chapter in Resident Evil 6 vis-a-vis Ada herself. She has a name, a face, and a known story, whereas the faceless male-coded deuteragonist in her chapter is there simply to ensure that the game's co-play mechanics are available (he isn't even H.U.N.K.) — Chris Woodrich (talk) 14:50, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Chris Woodrich You mean if I can find more reception about her appearance in RE6? Nope. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 21:17, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• It was more wondering if anyone had contrasted Ada with the Player 2 character in that chapter, but given that the character is essentially a non-entity, makes sense that nobody has.  — Chris Woodrich (talk) 21:20, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Probably not, but I will recheck it again to make sure in Saturday since I couldn't access my computer yet this time. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 21:24, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Overall, this article is looking really solid right now.  — Chris Woodrich (talk) 14:50, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Support, based on the peer review and review here. This appears to be a thorough review of the sources available, and it feels accessible to the average reader (though as someone who has played the games since release, and whose first edits were RElated, I might not be the best judge of that) — Chris Woodrich (talk) 21:27, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Aoba47

I will do a thorough read-through of the article later in the week. I have a few quick comments for now.

• I would avoid repeating "video game" in the following sentence as it does make the prose unnecessarily repetitive: (Video game publications have positively responded to Ada as a video game character.)
• I would move the Resident Evil 4 link up to this part, (a remake of the original game), as that is the first time that the game is mentioned. I would also include the year up there as well.
• The source links for File:Early concept art of Ada.jpg are both dead (at least for me). Both links go to blank images for me.

Please ping me in a week if I have not posted anything further. Best of luck with the FAC. Aoba47 (talk) 03:00, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• RE: Source link, I have cited the PC port of RE2 as that was where the copies I provided the nominators came from. I have also fixed the links to Fandom – hopefully they work now.  — Chris Woodrich (talk) 12:39, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Thanks Chris! Also, I already replaced "video game publications" and about the link of RE4, it was later removed per [18] 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 13:12, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Thank you for the responses. Aoba47 (talk) 15:05, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• I think this part, (the character that would later become Ada was initially depicted as Linda), could be condensed to something like (Ada was initially depicted as Linda) to be more concise.

  Thank you for your comments! The reason I phrased this sentence the way that I did is because the final version of Ada that debuted in RE2 is an amalgamation of two prototypical characters that (initially) had no relation whatsoever: John Clemens girlfriend "Ada", who was only mentioned by name in RE1; and the Umbrella researcher Linda. Writer Noboru Sugimura ultimately gave Linda's role as Leon's supporting character to Ada in the final build, so Ada and Linda were never the same characters at all. I therefore feel that it is more appropriate to say that the (prototypical) character that was (eventually) transformed into Ada was initially depicted as Linda. I hope I'm adequately getting my meaning across, and I would be more than happy to discuss this further. :)JokEobard (talk) 08:37, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Thank you for the explanation. That makes sense to me. Aoba47 (talk) 17:36, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• For this part, (After the prototype was scrapped), I would avoid the word "scrapped" as it is too informal for Wikipedia.
• I do not think the director link is needed for (director Hideki Kamiya) as it does create an instead of a WP:SEAOFBLUE.
• This could be a matter of personal preference, but I would revise this sentence, (Ada's appearance was designed by artists Isao Ohishi and Ryoji Shimogama), to a more active tense: (i.e. Artists Isao Ohishi and Ryoji Shimogama designed Ada's appearance.)
• I would better attribute the quote in this sentence: (Recognizing Ada's minimal role in the main campaign and her being a "very strong character" that "deserves to really stand out" in Resident Evil 4, Capcom developed a short campaign dedicated to her.) The sentence attributes it to Capcom in general, but the source makes it clear that it is from Masachika Kawata.
• I have two comments on this part, (who helps protagonist Ethan Winters, such as helping him escape one of his trials early in the game). I would avoid repeating helps / helping in the same sentence as it is too repetitive. Also, is there a better and clearer descriptor for Ethan Winters? It would be helpful to give readers a better understanding of who this character is in the game itself.

These are my comments up to the "Reception" section. I hope that this is helpful and let me know if you have any questions. Aoba47 (talk) 21:14, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi @Aoba47. It seems like all of them are already resolved by @JokEobard (Thanks to him). Though, I don't know what's the best descriptor for Ethan Winters. Replacing "protagonist" into "civilian" seems kinda odd for you or not? Thanks! 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 12:12, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the response. I am likely just over-thinking it. "Protagonist" is likely the best word choice as it would clearly let readers know that Ethan is the primary character from that game. I agree that "civilian" would not really work in this instance, and after looking through the article about him, I could not really come up with a better word choice so I believe your current version is the best in regards to this. Aoba47 (talk) 17:38, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Would it be possible to use a more specific descriptor for Jenny Platz other than "critic". I would say that even something like "scholar" is more precise, but that is already used for Andrei Nae later in the same paragraph. I just think that the "critic" word choice is a bit too broad for this instance, and it is already used three times in close proximity to one another as well.

Replaced 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 21:18, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• The word "femme fatale" gets repeated quite a bit at the end of the first paragraph and for the second paragraph as well. I would see if there are ways to avoid such repetition if possible.
• I think that the prose for the Andrei Nae parts could use some further revision. It has some great information and I find it very interesting, but I think that it could flow better overall. Let me know if further clarification is needed for this. One suggestion is that I do not think this part, (Concerning Ada's portrayal as a femme fatale), is really needed. I do understand how it is being used as a transition and to make things flow better, but it does feel a bit repetitious as the previous sentence already makes it clear that the discussion will be on Ada's role as a femme fatale and the subsequent reviews about it.

Removed 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 21:29, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• I believe that when discussing the critic's opinions, the past tense should be used. This is pretty consistent throughout the "Reception" section, but I would revise this part, (scholar Andrei Nae notes), to be in the past tense and to double-check this section in case there are other instances of this that I missed.
• I am not sure if "appeal" is the right word choice for this part, (makes her accentuated sexuality as a femme fatale appeal to Orientalist clichés of East-Asian erotic femininity). Maybe something like "conform to Orientalist clichés" or "continue Orientalist clichés". Neither of my suggestions are particularly good either, but I did keep coming back to this part as I am not sure you can really appeal to cliches. I am also not sure if femininity really needs a link here. I would think one for East Asian would be best. Also should that be hyphenated? It is not done for the Wikipedia article, but I am honestly the worst when it comes to this.

Replaced 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 21:18, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• I would suggest that you remove the stereotypical link as most readers would be familiar with this concept and it would avoid WP:SEAOFBLUE as it is next to "Dragon Lady", which is a more beneficial link.

Removed 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 21:18, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• I would give some sort of descriptor for Stephanie Jennings to provide some background and context for readers.

Added, but not sure if this is the best descriptor for her after checking here [19]. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 21:18, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would say that is better than nothing. It can be difficult to find a good descriptor for this if the person does not have a clear focus in their overall research. It should be fine in my opinion. Aoba47 (talk) 02:02, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• I am uncertain about the structure of the following sentence: (Ada's presence as one of the series' few multiracial characters, she opined, demonstrates the intersectional potential of the feminine gaze, albeit without exploration of the character's racial identity.) The placement of "she opined" in the middle does not seem particularly beneficial for readers. I would also avoid "opined" in general, but that could be a matter of personal preference. I do not have any strong opinions about it, but I believe that I have seen it discussed in other FACs. That being said, I think the sentence structure is more of my issue here.

Already restructured by other editor. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 21:18, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Should the criticism for Lily Gao's vocal performance be mentioned in the lead as it has a separate paragraph in this section? It is a shame to hear that Gao got this kind of harassment in general.

Added 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 21:32, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would clarify that Gao was the one that received the criticism, not the character itself. It may also be worth briefly noting the review bombing as well to provide that additional context for readers. Aoba47 (talk) 02:02, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• I would make sure that authors are linked in the citations if they have a Wikipedia article. Anita Sarkeesian and Esther MacCallum-Stewart should be linked in their citations.

Done 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 21:18, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your patience with my review. Once everything has been addressed, I will read through the article a few more times just to make sure that I have not missed anything. I hope that is helpful. I have really enjoyed reading through this article. Ada has always been a character from RE that stood out to me the most so it was nice to finally learn more about her. I am a huge fan of spies in general. It would have been cool to see a RE game lean more into the spy stuff with Ada as a lead, but I doubt most people would want that lol. I hope you are having a great start to your weekend! Aoba47 (talk) 18:09, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• I'd play the ever-loving... out of an Ada-centric game. On topic, as I had proposed the sentences summarizing Jennings' arguments, I've rephrased the last one to "She suggested that Ada's presence as one of the series' few multiracial characters demonstrates the intersectional potential of the feminine gaze, albeit undermined by the limited exploration of the character's racial identity."  — Chris Woodrich (talk) 21:10, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you both for being sincere. This character as a spy is my favorite thing to the franchise. I'm glad Aoba enjoyed reading it. I am attempting to work on it. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 21:18, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I am glad that I am not the only one who would want an Ada-centric game lol. I just love spies in general, and I cannot really think of anything zombie-related taking that kind of angle. The rephrase looks great to me. Thank you for being patient and understanding with my comments. I have a minor comment on the citations. I have been told in past FACs to be consistent with whether or not citation titles use title case or not. I am mostly raising it to your attention, and it would not affect my review as it is more so focused on the prose. Aoba47 (talk) 02:09, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the comment and yeah thanks to Chris Woodrich for rephrasing it. I already did italized the game or film titles before and I am not sure if there are still other citations that have been overlooked or you mean this type of capitalization [20]? 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 02:15, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I am referencing how words in the citation titles are capitalized. See MOS:TITLECAPS. I do not believe that it is required, but I will leave that up to the source reviewer. Again, this is just something that I wanted to raise to your attention and it is not a requirement for my review. I will read through the article later in the weekend. I do not imagine that I will find anything major, but I want to make sure to be thorough. Aoba47 (talk) 02:32, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I see. I will attempt to go through all the citation titles on what is needed to change. Thanks a lot for reviewing! 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 02:42, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I support this FAC for promotion based on the prose. Best of luck with the nomination. I was debating on asking if the "a mysterious masked figure" description for Ada's planned appearance in Resident Evil Village should be more specific and mention the plague doctor element, but it may be getting too specific for something that was ultimately cut. Otherwise, everything looks good to me. Aoba47 (talk) 02:05, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for reviewing! 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 02:24, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Image and source review (with two notes about completeness)

File:Early concept art of Ada.jpg has the problem that it seems to illustrate a part of the article subject more than the whole, and thus doesn't meet the "significantly" part of WP:NFCC#8. Otherwise the image placement and stuff is fine. Source-wise: Are these Twitter accounts and Terasaki, Kimberly associated with the franchise? #58 and the sources under #70 throw an error message that must be suppressed. The bibliography seems reliable, while the rest of the sourcing is conditional, so to speak, on Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games/Sources. One thing that jumps out to me is that we don't have much description of her appearance, even though there are one or two paragraphs discussing the reception of her appearance. Also, the games themselves aren't cited as sources anywhere. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 16:08, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Hi Jojo. Just a comment about the FU image. I proposed it at the peer review because the 1.5 concept art and the art for the model ultimately used shows some shifts in the character from "Linda" to "Ada". The left image shows the researcher design, including an Umbrella logo on the jacket, while the right image shows her in the design that was ultimately used. A similar comparison FU image is used at Jill Valentine, though in that case the image highlights a particular outfit rather than two iterations of the character.  — Chris Woodrich (talk) 16:42, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Jo-Jo Eumerus The two twitter sources are associated to the franchise like Vicky voiced her in DBD, while the terasaki source supports the claim that Sally Cahill vliced RE2, RE4 and RE Dark Chronicles. I don't understand why the sources at #58 and #70 are error to you since it was sourced fine; I don't know what needs to "suppressed" with that (You need to clarify what it is since other editors didn't spot any error at those sources at all). Also, there's nothing more that can be found to add about her description and most of it are now already at the "appearances section" and there are some games are cited like who designed her appearance. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 21:46, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There is a "Harv warning: There is no link pointing to this citation" warning at 58 and 70. My question about the Twitter sources was more what makes them reliable sources. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:31, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There is no "Harv warning: There is no link pointing to this citation" at us from our POV? (I also asked my conom if he saw the "error" or "harv warning", but nope) Also, the Twitter sources came from the voice actors themselves (Other FA also uses that kind of tweet as a source), so I will say that they're fine. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 07:57, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Seems like it's a function on which userscripts one has. I also note that archiving Google Books links is pointless. Did some spotchecking, nothing jumped out to me but I must stress that I don't have much confidence in my assessments of the reliability of typical video game sources. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 09:12, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I see. When I use the sources, I did make sure to check it first at WP:VG/RS before using it. I will say all of them are reliable. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 09:33, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Are they high-quality, though? That's a bit of a tougher question. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 11:26, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Jo-Jo Eumerus Yes. I did not include any inconclusive sources. The 2 sources of TheGamer are the only ones that may be controversial cause its Valnet, but it says "News posts and original content after August 2020 are considered generally reliable." + that sources were also used in the recent promoted article Raichu. So, it will be fine. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 11:32, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Hi Boneless Pizza! - just confirming I see the errors as well, at 46, 58, and 70. I think it's from the way that these references have been nested. The script seems to be coded to ignore harv references generated automatically by the citation family of templates if and only if the reference is on its own between REF tags. By having extra formatting, the script is returning error messages. To fix this, each nested ref should have the field |ref=none added to the template. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 10:24, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Its kinda odd that other people can't see it, but thanks for informing me. Now I know what @Jo-Jo Eumerus mean. I already added it. Does it resolved the issues? Chris Woodrich 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 10:47, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  As Jo-Jo said, it isn't enabled by default; you have to have a particular script (User:Trappist the monk/HarvErrors) enabled. Since SFN is my preferred citation style, I installed it a while ago. Returning to Ada, this appears to have been fixed.  — Chris Woodrich (talk) 11:53, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  I see. Thanks! 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 11:54, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Hi Jo-Jo and thanks for the above. This one is also going to need a source to text integrity spot check and a review for over-close paraphrasing. Any chance that you could oblige? Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 17:23, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Spot-check

Reviewing this version:* 4 Do the games and commentary name Taylor as the voice actor?

Yes 🍕BP!🍕 (🔔) 14:04, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• 10 Seems like we can't verify this until the webarchive works again.

ref 10 supports the first sentence, while 42 at the second sentence. 🍕BP!🍕 (🔔) 14:14, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Looks like this was removed wholesale. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 09:31, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• 11 OK
• 12 Seems redundant to 11

Removed it 🍕BP!🍕 (🔔)

Still there, seems like. Also "portrayed Ada in the live-action film" appears twice, perhaps it can be reworded? Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 09:31, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Jo-Jo Eumerus reworded, and the current source for ref 12 os different now and the Complex source was already removed. The current source for ref 12 supports the voice being dubbed in Japanese, aswell as the promoting thing from Li. 🍕BP!🍕 (🔔) 12:32, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• 20 I am not sure which part of 17 or 20 supports this.

17 supports everything, while I did replaced the source 20 into Digital trend to support the claim where Wesker sent Ada to steal the virus. 🍕BP!🍕 (🔔) 14:04, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Now "Los Iluminados" doesn't appear anywhere. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 09:31, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Jo-Jo Eumerus ehh, it is mentioned in the ref 17. 🍕BP!🍕 (🔔) 12:25, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I bet you ctrl + f it, but in their website they double spelled the "L", which it was written as "Los Illuminados". 🍕BP!🍕 (🔔) 13:03, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Aye, the article might need correction then. Also, does the cult use the parasite, is it infected by it, or both? Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 14:08, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Jo-Jo Eumerus the IGN articles does not us since they are spled correctlt. Also, both. They are infected and does contain the Las plagas parasite and often used it like for ex. when you blow up their head the giant parasite emerged and attacks protagonist. Is this aye already since this is the last one? 🍕BP!🍕 (🔔) 15:42, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

From the source, it doesn't seem clear that the cult is using the parasite, instead of merely being its victim. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:37, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Jo-Jo Eumerus Sorry for confusing you. I did ask RE fans at discord and they were right that the cult was only infected, and they didn't "use" for parasite since the creature is already controlling when they were infected. So, they didn't use them but was only infected and being controlled by the Las plagas parasite. 🍕BP!🍕 (🔔) 10:45, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• (3rd party comment) Referring to the primary source (i.e., RE4), every villager met by Leon and Ada has a Las Plagas parasite in them ("infected"). Three leaders (Saddler, Mendez, and Saddler) have a "higher breed" of parasite that allows them to control others infected by Las Plagas. They also "use" Las Plagas to infect others; Saddler's ultimate goal is to infect Ashley (who is implanted with a parasite about midway through the game) and have her infect her father, the President, thereby allowing him to control the United States through him. This is consistent in both the original RE4 and in the remake. So, based on the games, "infected" (as per Ref 17) and "used" (which doesn't seem to be in the sources used) are both correct. That being said, I agree that we need a source that explicitly says "use" if we're going to use that word.  — Chris Woodrich (talk) 11:23, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Its hard to find and verify that claim that they "used" the parasite. I reworded it now to only "infected". Since most of the cult were also victims and were just infected only. 🍕BP!🍕 (🔔) 11:31, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

* 24 Seems like we can't verify this until the webarchive works again.

I will say this source definitely support the claim and was spotchecked by Vacant before web.archive.org was taken down. 🍕BP!🍕 (🔔) 14:31, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

OK. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 09:31, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• 30 OK
• 31 Doesn't appear in article.

Removed 🍕BP!🍕 (🔔) 14:14, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• 32 OK
• 35 OK
• 41 That Resident Evil: City of the Dead is a book is somewhat implicit here rather than explicit.

Eh, I just ended up removing the sentencr, but she still appears so her being mentioned appearing at novelization would be fine. 🍕BP!🍕 (🔔) 14:14, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• 45 OK
• 47 The Linda part is supported by 48? Not sure what it supports in the other sentences.

"Ada was initially conceived as an Umbrella researcher named Linda" is supported by ref 48, while ref 47 support the rest 🍕BP!🍕 (🔔) 14:04, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Can I ask for a quote on #48?

Replaced it into Bloody Disgusting as a source just in case you're gonna doubt about it since I cannot access to that book. Bloody Disgusting still confirm that Ada was linda in the early concept, which it says that Linda was renamed as Ada in the final version. Jo-Jo Eumerus 🍕BP!🍕 (🔔) 12:19, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• 50 Don't have access.

It's in the end of game's credit scene. 🍕BP!🍕 (🔔) 14:04, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• 54 Seems like we can't verify this until the webarchive works again.

It just supports her appearance in the "Separate Ways". Thats it. 🍕BP!🍕 (🔔) 14:31, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• 56 Don't have access.

Download it at libgen website. 🍕BP!🍕 (🔔) 14:31, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Library Genesis seems questionable, legally speaking. I am a little uncomfortable with sourcing something to pirated text. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 15:06, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oops sorry for suggesting you about this as a source reviewer. I was able to download/receive books from other users after making request at resource. I've already emailed it to you the ref 56 and ref 72 book pages. I used Ref 56 so that I can claim her outfit as "red slit dress". 🍕BP!🍕 (🔔) 16:48, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

'fraid that the emails did not include any content. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 09:31, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Jo-Jo Eumerus its in the second email. I already emailed you again for 3rd time now. 🍕BP!🍕 (🔔) 12:14, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• 60 Don't have access.

For you to see at twitter [21] 🍕BP!🍕 (🔔) 14:25, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure why that would be a reliable source, and it only supports part of the sentence. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 15:06, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Removed 🍕BP!🍕 (🔔) 16:47, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• 61 OK
• 72 Don't have access.

  OK. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 14:08, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• 76 OK

Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 13:51, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Jo-Jo Eumerus made a comment. If you can't access books then you download it from libgen website for free. About books, I was able to borrow/receive them from anotherr user via email after requesting at resource. Can I maybe take a screenshot and email it to you??? 🍕BP!🍕 (🔔) 14:04, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

On 10 and 24, can I have a second pair of eyes? Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 15:05, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Jo-Jo Eumerus about ref 24, this was the content fron a separate ways Ive taken to that website.

GI: Let’s talk about Separate Ways. Was this your idea? How it all come about?

Kawata: Actually while we were thinking about the game itself we realized that the development time was actually very long and we wanted to add something to the game more than just porting it. We wanted to really add something to the game and one of the things we realized was that Ada shows up in the game later but you don’t know much about her and she’s a very strong character and she deserves to really stand out in the game. So we really wanted to give her that side story in order to let her stand out the way she should have in the game

. I ended up removing the ref 10 and 40 aswell due their source problem I guess, its a Japanese full text and it might be a questionable source while archive org is still down. I've also already emailed it to you the ref 56 and ref 72 book pages. I used Ref 56 so that I can claim her outfit as "red slit dress". 🍕BP!🍕 (🔔) 17:17, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Jo-Jo Eumerus can you update? 🍕BP!🍕 (🔔) 11:59, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Panini!

I workshopped some of this article with (if your username were to be shortened, would you rather be called just "Boneless" or just "Pizza"?), including a peer review. My main gripe was the reception section, but this recent version is written very wonderfully, with its detailed critical opinions and comparisons to stereotypes and popular genres. I'm not a character guy, but I think you nailed it; really! My other concerns have been picked up prior to FAC. I Support this article. Panini! • 🥪 21:40, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Ada is hired by an unnamed organization to steal the G-virus mutagen developed by the Umbrella Corporation, a pharmaceutical company responsible for a zombie outbreak in the fictional American metropolitan area of Raccoon City. I really like this summary in particular

  Thanks for being sincere(if my username were to be shortened, I think it would be best to be called "Boneless" or just "BP" lol), that summary was made/copyedited by JokEobard wonderfully. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 21:55, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Shooterwalker

I had a chance to re-read this article. It was already very close not long ago. It has improved significantly, and I can support the prose as being featured quality. Great work. Shooterwalker (talk) 20:45, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Kung Fu Man

Tossing my support, but two suggestions with one purpose: I feel the note section is unnecessary:

• It should be fine to include the nihongo in the lead per other article. While I recognize Jill deviates from that, it's kind of an exception.
• For the Dead by Daylight reference, there's really no need to make a special note for the Resident Evil crossover, as others such as Knives Out came out years after the game's release also. Simply putting the reference itself in place of the note should suffice.

With these two small changes, the notes section can be removed for easier reading.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 02:11, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. Done 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 04:33, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Tintor2

Just like in the previous nomination, I think Boneless Pizza did a good work with Ada but I think he improved on it thanks to the fact the article provides more coverage about her other appearances like the making of the character.Tintor2 (talk) 15:02, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy

Nominator(s): K. Peake 07:27, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy (2010), the fifth studio album by American rapper Kanye West. It was recorded during West's exile in Hawaii after a period of controversy through 2009, resulting in a maximalist style with elements of his previous work. The album was met with widespread critical acclaim and also received much retrospective praise, including being ranked as one of the greatest albums of all time. West promoted the album with four singles that were top 40 hits in the United States and the film Runaway, while it reached the top 10 in countries like the US and Canada. The article became a GA back in 2011, more than five years before I joined this site, though I have monitored it over the years and put in extensive work back in both 2022 for the first FAC and even more so for the multiple candidacies of 2024. The prevention of FAC on the last occasions were mainly the book sources not included and too much close phrasing, although I have put in a massive effort to clean these up and also worked on the reception to have concise themes. Clearly having waited over a month after the last candidacy had closed, I had brought this to the maximum potential and would appreciate any users commenting to follow this constructively with whatever suggestions since last few times, it appears the same ones commented with concerns in one candidacy but saved others until the next. West's magnum ops surely deserves FA; we can do this, fans! K. Peake 07:27, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from HAL

I'll leave some comments soon. If I don't follow up by Wednesday, please ping me. ~ HAL333 19:46, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• "Certain retailers would not carry the original cover" --> "Certain retailers did not carry the original cover"
• Why wikilink "Burbank, California" but not "New York City"? (Both in the lead and body)
• "reviewers lauded the maximalism" might be unclear to the average reader. Maybe "maximalist sound" or "maximalist approach"?
• "the top 10 in numerous other countries" - can you give the actual number?
• Reword to avoid the passive tense: "It has been ranked in lists"
• The meaning of the clause "for challenging through contributions and inspiration" doesn't make sense to me...
• What is "alien electronics"?
• "West dedicates himself to expressing his emotions" seems a little fluffy
• "West ventures into the id of his ego" seems like it should be credited to someone.
• "shrinking world" - shrinking in what way?
• "African-American" - shouldn't be hyphenated

More comments to come. ~ HAL333 20:59, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

HAL333 Thanks for these comments, took me over a week but I checked back happily to find them – I've covered everything now. Please let me know if you want to clarify anything, look forward to seeing your further comments! --K. Peake 18:33, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Round 2:

• "once titled Good Ass Job and then as Dark Twisted Fantasy" —> I don't think "as" is needed
• "A second cover containing painting of a ballerina" is awkward
• "GOOD Fridays was originally intended" — "originally" isn't needed
• Sentences like West elaborated how he had been deeply considering the idea of a phoenix for a while, regarding the possibility of it being parallel to his career that he "threw a Molotov cocktail" at, then felt the need "to come back as a better person". make me think that a formal copy edit might be needed...
• "At one of his screenings for Runaway in Paris, he broke down into tears." --> "At a Runaway screening in Paris, he broke down into tears."
• "Later after another screening in Los Angeles" —"later isn't needed"
• Is there a better way to word "West said how his music and art affects people is his inspiration to continue in his career."
• "it was reported that My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy had been streamed a billion times on Spotify" - Is this an allegation or is it fact? Can we word it as such?
• "My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy later appeared on decade-end best albums lists." — "Later" relative to what? Remove.
• Touré's views are given undue weight in the "Industry awards" section
• Can you make "Having been vocal about snubs for major categories of award shows in the past" more concise?
• I'm not particularly familiar with music media sources, but what makes outlets like HipHopDX or Hung Medien high quality reliable sources? This is an issue in several spots, e.g. the tabloid The Daily Telegraph.

Those are all my comments for now. This might need a second look from me, especially after others have commented. Comprehensiveness and most other aspects look great, but reference quality is a concern and the prose is lacking in many spots and needs to be polished for concision and "punchiness". ~ HAL333 17:51, 5 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Kyle Peake? FrB.TG (talk) 19:32, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

HAL333 I have covered these comments now, although I would like to respond to what you said about sources. You can find The Daily Telegraph listed at WP:RSP, I had a discussion about HipHopDX on the Kids See Ghosts FAC and one about Hung Medien under the Late Registration FAC – check the source review tabs if you don't see it first time. Regarding what you said about the prose, I have been dedicating myself to cleaning this article up continuously as will be able to be seen if you take a look through my responses to these past four candidacies so to have it up to scratch on the fifth would be very satisfying! --K. Peake 20:37, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Coordinator comment

Going into five weeks and this nom hasn't garnered a support. Unless it receives several further in depth reviews over the next week or so it's liable to time out. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^talk 18:34, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Apocalypse of Peter

Nominator(s): SnowFire (talk) 21:20, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If you flip to the back of a Christian Bible these days, you'll find the Book of Revelation as the final book in the New Testament. But did you know that over in some rather plausible alternate timelines, there would be TWO books of Revelation in the back - the Revelation of John, and the Revelation of Peter? It took centuries to come up with a consensus New Testament; the contents weren't obvious. Our oldest surviving list that is close-ish to the New Testament, the Muratorian fragment, actually includes the Revelation of Peter as part of its canon! Some other early Christian writers seem to have thought it deserved canonical status, too. That didn't happen, of course, but it's interesting. (Although given some of the content, Christianity may have dodged a bullet here...)

This article includes the latest scholarship, as there's been decent interest lately - Eric Beck wrote a 2019 book on it (the thesis it's based on is open-access, link in the article), Bart Ehrman covered it pretty heavily in a 2022 book on katabases in general, and a monograph collection on the topic just dropped just a few months ago, also free & open-access (link in article). I ran the article past Beck over email and he didn't have any complaints, so hopefully a good sign. SnowFire (talk) 21:20, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

HF

I don't know that I'll be able to do a full review here, but I do own and have read a copy of Edmon L. Gallagher's and John D. Meade's The Biblical Canon Lists from Early Christianity, published by Oxford University Press (I own the 2019 paperback edition).

• "Two other short Greek fragments of the work have been discovered: a 5th-century fragment at the Bodleian library that had been discovered in Egypt in 1895, and the Rainer fragment at the Rainer collection in Vienna which perhaps comes from the 3rd or 4th century" - we're presenting these dates as a scholarly consensus (sourced to something from the 1960s?) but I don't know that this is actually the scholarly consensus. Gallagher & Meade refer to these as both fourth-century, and contains the following interesting footnote: These two fragments [Bodleian and Rainer] possibly (definitely, according to Van Minnen 2003: 35) derive from the same manuscript; see Bauckham 1998: 257. The Bauckham citation they are referring to is the Fate of the Dead book cited here and Van Minnen 2003 is "The Greek 'Apocalypse of Peter' which is apparently pp. 15-39 in the Bremmer and Czachesz 2003 source cited in this article.
• Gallagher and Meade also specificy that the Ethiopic versions are in Ge'ez
• "The Apocalypse of Peter is listed in the catalog of the 6th-century Codex Claromontanus, which was probably copying a 3rd- or 4th-century source" - this seems to be a bit misleading, per Gallagher & Meade p. 184 There are also some books beyond the traditional New Testament; the list concludes with mention of the Epistle of Barnabas, the Revelation of John, the Acts of the Apostles, the Shepherd of Hermas, the Acts of Paul, and the Revelation of Peter, but the first and last three of these titles are preceded by a horizontal stroke that appears to be an obelus, probably indicating their dubious status
• I do wonder if the text should contain an explicit reference to the Gnostic Apocalypse of Peter being a separate work given the similar names and ages. At least in my opinion, there is a greater degree of potential confusion between these two things than what most subjects handled with a simple hatnote would be
• Is it worth noting that the Akhmim manuscript also contains the Gospel of Peter and I Enoch?
• A bit more detail on the reception by Eusebius - Eusebius of Caesarea (Hist. eccl. 3.3.2) claims that no ecclesiastical writer ever made use of the Petrine apocrypha, [elsewhere in the work Gallagher & Meade do mention that Eusebius actually attests to usage of the work by Clement] and in his canon list he classifies the Apocalype of Peter as a spurious antilegomenon, but not a heretical work (Hist. eccl. 3.25.4)
• Lastly (for now) Gallagher & Meade cite Elliott, J.K. 1993 The Apocryphal New Testament: A Collection of Apocryphal Christian Literature in an English Translation Based on M.R. James by OUP pp. 598-600 as collecting seven patristic citations. This article references all but one set of two citations: Theophilus of Antioch in Ad Autolycum 2.19

I'm not sure how helpful this might be, but that's what I can contribute to this. I've been considering acquiring and reading a copy of Metzger's work on the canon for awhile; I liked his work on the textual history. Hog Farm _Talk 01:02, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the speedy feedback!

• The Maurer 1965 write-up is a good one IMO, but it's just there as a supporting chorus and more proof of what goes in the shorter write-ups (one problem that happens sometime when compressing 300 page books into Wikipedia articles is that it isn't obvious it is the "most important" stuff; citing some shorter articles helps cut against that). (Side note, on age of references... similarly, all of the citations to M. R. James generally are "extras" that are conveniently available online, except when citing opinions attributed to James, as a little too dated; there's a "real" current-scholarship citation next to all of them. But I figured he was good to throw in thanks to Wikisource scans for easy verifiability on a few, along with general historic flavor.) Van Minnen 2003 is definitely cited in the article (ref 3 in the version of Aug 29), although annoyingly enough I don't own a copy and my interlibrary loan long since expired for easily re-checking it - was a good article though. Yes, I've read the theory that Rainer & Bodleian are from the same manuscript, but my thought at the time was I didn't want to stick in every bit of scholarly speculation. That said, checking... it looks like both Beck 2019 and Dochhorn 2024 buy it, and so does Kraus/Nicklas 2004, the most recent full book-length treatment of just the Greek. So it seems you're right that most recent scholars have switched over - updated the phrasing. (A little annoying since various other sources refer to the Rainer fragment as the "oldest" which wouldn't be quite true if Rainer = Bodleian is accurate, but oh well.)
• Ethiopic and Ge'ez are the same thing (see Geʽez). For reasons that I do not know, scholarship on the Apocalypse of Peter calls the language of the d'Abaddie / Lake Tana manuscripts "Ethiopic" 99% of the time - perhaps there's some technical distinction that makes Ethiopic correct and Ge'ez incorrect? I figured I should honor that and just use Ethiopic everywhere as well. (And even if they're pure synonyms, it's one less term for a reader to keep track of.)
• Hmm, what's misleading here? That Gallagher & Meade sentence sounds like what is trying to be communicated. If you meant "in the codex itself" I'd argue that's already implicitly indicated by specifying that it was (only) in the "catalog" (if a copy of ApocPeter was in it, that'd have made the scholarship way easier!). If you meant the "dubious" part, the topic of that paragraph is "indications ApocPeter was used, but disputed", so that's keeping with the general sense of examples the paragraph is trying to provide. Open to suggestions for rephrasing if that isn't being communicated as well as it could be.
  • Side note: Now, there IS something that I'd like to go into more detail if this was really scholarly-paper certified... specifically, that the idea that the Catalog was copying a 3rd- or 4th- century document is circular. That is, we think that's true precisely because we think the Apoc Peter would still have been current at the time (and 2nd century is too early for such a full catalog of the New Testament), but would have been unlikely in the 5th century... basically it's scholarship on ApocPeter informing the dating of the Codex, not the other way around. But I figure that point is too minor for a general audience (and besides, this isn't the "Date of authorship" section so it's not being used as faux-evidence there).
• On the Gnostic Apocalypse: Hmm. I did include two sentences in Gnostic_Apocalypse_of_Peter#Literary_influences, because this text preceded that one and an obvious question is if the Gnostic Apoc. Peter author read "this" ApocPeter. But since most scholars think "no", it feels a little artificial to include here... "there's another work with the same title written later that has nothing to do with this?" Especially since the Gnostic work appears to have been obscure - until it was dug up, we had no idea it existed. I'd prefer not to add it, but can add a similar statement if really desired - I just have no idea where it won't stand out as irrelevant. ("Later influence"? Except about a work it didn't influence?)
• On Akhmim & Eusebius: Same answer here for both - I was just trying to keep the length of the article under control, and be a summary and not a total deep dive. The Akhmim manuscript including the Gospel of Peter is mentioned indirectly in "Manuscript History" when it's relevant for how the Akhmim version was probably rewritten, but I don't think including Enoch is that relevant (the Ethiopic manuscripts include a bunch of other stuff not mentioned here too - see [22] & [23]), just it feels off-topic to mention them. Eusebius is simply wrong when he says nobody else quotes Apoc Peter, but beating up on him for overstating the case seems petty. And I figure people interested in Eusebius dividing books into good; disputed; orthodox-but-spurious (our ApocPeter in this category); and heretical can hit the references for more. I can certainly expand it into a full sentence if desired, just that paragraph is already on the long side, and I thought "dubious" gets the gist of Eusebius's opinion across.
• On Theophilus: Buchholz deep dives all the patristic references and alleged references, and is rather skeptical of this one (and in the realm of side chatter, so am I, this is a total stretch). Both Theophilus's line and Akhmim Gr. 15 talk about a cool place with both light and beautiful plants, but to quote Buchholz p. 49, "The evidence is not convincing because it was normal at that time to describe paradise with much light and beautiful plants." It'd be an indirect reference at best that suggested Theophilus had read ApocPeter and was loosely quoting it. I suppose I can add it, but I'd rather kick it to a note, similar to the Acts of Paul and Thecla possible reference. (But even then, that one is more "interesting" because it's touching on a theological issue. This one is just vaguely similar flowery descriptions that could have easily happened by chance with no particular significance.)
• diff changes here. SnowFire (talk) 03:50, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I agree with your replies above except on two points - as to the mention in the Codex Claromontanus, for the other references here the article is indicating generally how the list or church father viewed the work. For instance, in the next sentence it doesn't just say that Stichometry of Nicephorus lists the work, it states the general classification that it gave it. I don't think much is needed to add here, but it's necessary I think to indicate how this was actually viewed, given that the early canon lists covered a fair bit of ground. Likewise, I think "Eusebius considered the work spurious but not heretical" is more informative and useful to the reader than just a simple statement that he found it dubious. I think there's a way to provide clarification in both of those cases without meaningfully adding to the length. Hog Farm _Talk 23:16, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • Fair enough; expanded the Eusebius bit into two sentences, but I don't think the overall length was blown up. (I'll also try and get ahold of Gallagher & Meade myself and make sure I didn't miss anything in there.) SnowFire (talk) 08:00, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      • Unless I'm missing something, I think everything significant in Gallagher & Meade is currently being included. I still think we need a brief clarification for the Codex Claromontanus listing to indicate how exactly this canon list viewed the apocalypse. I'll try to complete a full review after UC finishes their review below. Hog Farm _Talk 19:16, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
        • I added another sentence on Claromontanus. (The ApocPeter-specific sources don't see fit to talk about it - my suspicion is that it's because they're interested in the hypothetical original 4th-century catalog that was being copied that we don't have, which probably had no such mark because why would you even bother including such a work if you already don't fully trust it. But still useful to note that the later scribe marked it up.) It's unfortunate that the sources don't seem to clarify which obelus, presumably because it was obvious to them - I presume the dagger version, but I linked it to the top-level Obelus page since I'm not fully sure. SnowFire (talk) 07:34, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
          • I'll try to do a full review soon. I'm probably not going to have time this weekend, though. Hog Farm _Talk 13:07, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• @Hog Farm: Do you think you'll be able to perform a fuller review? (No problem if not, just a reminder ping.) SnowFire (talk) 04:24, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't have the time tonight. I'm hoping I'll be able to tomorrow or Wednesday, but I can't make promises. Hog Farm _Talk 02:14, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• "The author also appears to be familiar with the Gospel of Matthew and no other;" - but yet this is stated to include an account of the ascension, which is not directly found in Matthew. Is the argument here that this reference to the ascension is drawing on independent Christian tradition from outside the Gospels? But how exactly does one confidently demonstrate this and not that the account of the ascension is being taken from another gospel? I'd be interested to see what Bauckham is using to draw this conclusion.
  • It's page 173 of Bauckham, where he's citing himself on 4723-4724 of this article (on Wikipedia library). Checking... "Dependence on Matthew is especially clear in E1-2 (cf. Mt. 24:3-33) and E15—17 (cf. Mt. 17:1—8), with possible further allusions in E3, E5—6, and E14=R" (the R is "Rainer" here, and the E#s are Ethiopic chapter numbers). It does seem to be something of an argument from silence though - that because there aren't direct Lukan literary references, it wasn't used, even if the author knew of some circulating stories that also ended up in Luke. It looks like Bauckham goes into more detail in "The Two Fig Tree Parables in the Apocalypse of Peter" (on Wikipedia library as well)... as mentioned, the author seems to be quoting specifically Matthew's version of the Little Apocalypse. On the Lukan Parable of the barren fig tree, Bauckham says that there are no direct quotes, and further the version quoted seems to have "considerable differences", which suggests knowing of the parable from independent tradition rather than reading Luke. (He doesn't discuss the ascension, but my understanding is that this was thought to be a common piece of Christian tradition in the era, and the literary dependence is clearly Matthew's transfiguration.)
  • I should add that there is at least one scholar who argues against this, but in the reverse direction... Beck brings up Robert C. Helmer arguing that the author wasn't familiar with Matthew, either, and was only working with "Tradition" and lost sources! This was for an unpublished dissertation, though, that is inexplicably listed as "withdrawn" on the website ([24] - maybe only from e-publication?). Considering the high-quality of sources elsewhere, I'm not sure an unpublished view is important enough to discuss. I've repeated Bauckham's Fig Tree journal article as a reference to this line though, since that seems relevant.
• Is the link to wheel of fire really useful? Besides the fact that that article is currently a mass of OR ranging from Ixion to Frodo, it seems bold to pick a specific link for a topic that the scholars are considering to be unclear
  • The reasoning behind a wheel of fire being involved is unclear, but the punishment being a wheel of fire is clear enough. As is, the link is kinda worthless since the article is worthless, but given that there is an "In mythology" section, it seems potentially relevant? It's not a big deal and I'm happy to remove it, but if hypothetically the wheel of fire article was improved and sourced and continued to have a myth / religion section, I think the wikilink would be fine.
• "Sinners who perished in the Great Flood are brought back as well: probably a reference to the Nephilim, the children of the Watchers (fallen angels) and mortal women described in the Book of Enoch, Book of Jubilees, and Genesis." - I don't know that there's an easy way to rephrase this, but I'm not sure that this is the best way to approach this. Yes, the Nephilim are described in Genesis, but they are not described as "children of the Watchers (fallen angels) and mortal women" in Genesis; yes this is how some traditions have interpreted "when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bore children to them" but we can't say that this is what the Genesis narrative explicitly describes
  • Fair enough. I was worried that not including Genesis might imply that this was entirely an Enochian tradition with no basis in the Torah, but I suppose the Genesis connection is already in the footnote. Removed the mention of Genesis here.
• One last thought I have with this - from what I've read, there seems to be a fair number of scholars who take the stance that apostolic authorship was part of the criteria for determining the canon in the early church. Does any of the scholarship on the apocalypse bear on this idea? Another angle is whether or not the scholarship gives any thought to considerations of if this work was recognized as pseudepigrapha in the early church, or if there was belief that this was an authentic Petrine revelation.
  • Absolutely! The canonicity section was refactored recently to include " A common criticism of those who opposed the canonicity of these works was to accuse them of lacking apostolic authorship" - hopefully that's enough for casual readers, but can add another line to add the reverse that canonical works had apostolic authorship if you think it'd help. As best we can tell, the number one argument used to buttress the authority of a document was to claim apostolic authorship for it, and the number one argument used against the authority of a document that did claim apostolic authorship was that it wasn't really written by apostles. Eusebius calling the Apocalypse spurious-if-orthodox probably indicates he doubts Peter wrote it, yeah. However, while this was the argument used, few surviving ancient authors approached the question like a modern scholar would - i.e. examining grammar, word choice, attestation. Rather, it was the somewhat circular criterion of "if it speaks the Word of God, then an apostle might have written it, and if it spreads heresy, then an apostle couldn't possibly have written it." Or more cynically, if you disagree with the content, then that means Peter didn't write this. So Apostolic authorship is the criteria, but most writers used theological criteria to decide the matter, rather than literary criteria.
  • Ehrman cites Serapion of Antioch saying as much about the Gospel of Peter - Serapion directly argues that because the Gospel of Peter could be read docetically (not even necessarily advocating docetism outright!), obviously the real Peter couldn't have written it. Ehrman's argument in reasoning by analogy is that if "could be read as promoting heresy" = "no aposotolic authorship", and we have condemnations of Rainer Fragment-ish universal salvation, maybe there was some influential Church figure condemning the Apocalypse of Peter as not apostolically authored, a la the Serapion example.
  • Anyway, any ancient authors positively quoting the Apocalypse should be assumed to think Peter really wrote it (or dictated it, or had some Mark-esque secretary record the story, etc.), and anyone speaking poorly of it should be assumed to think it was pseudepigrapha.

SnowFire - I think that's all of my thoughts on this. I guess as full disclosure, I'm approaching this from an evangelical Christian perspective, although I think I've kept my personal religious beliefs out of this. Hog Farm _Talk 02:01, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• @Hog Farm: No worries. (And Bauckham is usually considered somewhat on the traditionalist side of scholarship FWIW, although not to the degree of the strongest and most traditional of apologist-scholars, i.e. the Talbot folks.) Thanks for the review; made a few changes and can easily make a few more if you think it'd help. SnowFire (talk) 04:48, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Great work, supporting. Hog Farm _Talk 02:37, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

UC

Some impressive scholarship on display here. I think my comments will mostly have to stick with Wikipedia minutiae rather than really getting to grips with the subject matter, but I hope they are useful. If you wouldn't mind, could you answer the points below each one, rather than in a list at the end -- I can see this review getting even longer and more confusing otherwise!

• • Thank you so much for the prompt and detailed review! I wouldn't disclaim your subject matter knowledge too much - you clearly know plenty here, and more than me on the matters of Koine Greek itself. (There are a few points I have some pushback, but don't take my whining too seriously - if you feel strongly on it, I'm happy to adjust anyway. Just figured I'd just raise the "other side" first on the ones I disagree on.) SnowFire (talk) 07:57, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• be pierced by sharp fiery stones as would beggars: not sure what as would beggars means in this context -- do beggars get the same punishment, or is this (apparently) what happens to beggars in the real world?
  • What happens to beggars in the real world, yes. i.e. "clothed in filthy rags and having calloused feet from stones cutting through their bad shoes". The burning part maybe not as much, but that's kinda the standard hell addition in ApocPeter. (Although who knows, the ground can get pretty hot in the Middle East...) Fun fact on the side: I forget where exactly, but someone wrote an article with a long analogy about how this was fore-runner of the medieval Danse Macabre, i.e. in the sense that noble & commoner alike do the dance, and maybe the rich people are being forced to dance into the stones? I didn't really buy the connection, but it was cool anyway.
    • I think that could do with a little bit of clarification -- at the moment, what is written isn't quite compatible with that (very good) explanation. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 06:14, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      • I've expanded this to make the analogy more clear.
        • I'm afraid I still found it a bit unclear in the lead; I've made a tentative edit there to assist. I now don't see anything about mirroring the existence of beggars in the body? UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 22:07, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
          • Added a sentence in the "lex talionis" section. I also switched "beggars" to "poor"... I personally think beggars are fine, but the text uses "widows and orphans" which seems to be synecdoche for the poor in general. So beggars might be over-specific.
• Two other short Greek fragments of the work have been discovered: a 5th-century fragment at the Bodleian library that had been discovered in Egypt in 1895, and the Rainer fragment at the Rainer collection in Vienna: as phrased, this sounds as though the second fragment was discovered in Vienna. Suggest adding "held by..." or similar to the institutions.
  • Rephrased the sentence; take a look.
• The Rainer fragment was originally dated to the 3rd or 4th century; later analysis: can we put dates on these?
  • For the first, yes, and done. For the second, I'm not so sure there's a clean date when this becomes accepted (there are still recent-ish publications that use the old date), nor do I think it's that relevant - it seems like it started as a hypothesis that got better backing with later close analysis.
    • Right, but are we talking (more or less) about the early medieval period, or more or less about modern academia? I'm not suggesting that we need to pin it down to the 24th of March, 1893, but giving the reader an idea of vaguely what sort of timescale they're imagining would be helpful. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 11:08, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      • Went with "2003" as when Van Minnen published his chapter in "The Apocalypse of Peter," although see disclaimer above. (I'd rather go for either pure hand-waving in this case or one specific event, as I don't think I have a source that says "over the course of the 2000s decade and 2010s...", although that's my personal guess).
• the Stichometry of Nicephorus: can we explain what this is and why it matters? We sort of introduce it right at the end of the article.
  • I feel that this is off-topic. I agree most readers won't have a clue what this is, but context provides everything that the reader needs to know - there was a source saying the Apoc Peter should have X lines, and the Ethiopic version is pretty close to that, and here's a wikilink to the source if you want to learn what a Stichometry is.
• Note 2 is long and generally well formed, but I think we should put in the body the fact that Bauckham's views have been challenged.
  • Open to suggestions, but the fact that this is attributed in-line to a specific scholar and uses "argues" (rather than just stating as a fact it's from Palestine) hopefully communicates it's not a scholarly consensus already (along with "Other scholars suggest [something else]"). I feel like that might also make the Egypt theory seem stronger than it really is - Bauckham's views have been challenged because a lot of people buy them, while the Egypt origin view doesn't seem as popular and thus people don't bother to swat it down. (The main competing view, as best I can tell, is flat "we don't know." But I'm not sure we need to write that one out.)
    • I'm not sure I agree -- it sounds like there's a debate with two sides, both of which have equal levels of scholarly acceptance, so WP:DUEWEIGHT says we should present both equally. Putting one in the body text and relegating the other to a footnote places greater weight on the first, which we should not do unless it is clearly the majority position (WP:FRINGE). UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 11:08, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      • But both are in the body text? Both the possibility of a Egyptian and a Palestinian origin are discussed in the body. Unless you mean the "we don't know" option? That's just some OR from me, nobody publishes a paper arguing "I've unsolved the problem, we have no idea." I've added a brief sentence cited to Bremmer acknowledging that provenance is still a matter of scholarly debate and uncertainty, with Palestine & Egypt the lead two options - does that work? (p. 153 here if curious)
• File:Near East 0100AD.svg -- political maps like this are a very tricky business. I can't find any sign of the source data for this one, and we definitely need some reliable source to be making claims about territorial boundaries and levels of effective control in this period. A smaller thing, but I'm very unconvinced by some of their Latinisations (like Myos Hormus for Myos Hormos), and they've used a frustrating variety of fonts.
  • I was just doing some basic translation of German from a map and leaving the Latin alone. @Enyavar: who created this series. From looking at the upload, a list of sources are at File:Ancient_Orient_History_Map_basis.de.svg#Beschreibung - anything else to be aware of in using the map?
    • That list seems to be specifically about the Bronze Age -- wherever a page is cited, it's specifically BA material. It does cite books that we would expect to have maps of the Roman period in them, but I don't see a definitive statement that those maps were used in the map we have. Of course, if you can find other sources which verify the information and append them to the Commons page, it doesn't particularly matter whether they were originally consulted, but we do need something for the included claims like, for example, "the Roman Empire had only weak influence over Nabataea in 100 CE". UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 06:20, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      • I asked Enyavar directly - stay tuned. As for Nabatea itself, it looks like Rome only took over in 106 CE (Nabataean_Kingdom#Roman_annexation), so to the extent the map is "exactly 100 AD", it seems sorta justified as a heavily Roman-influenced but client-y state.
        • I'm not disputing any of the ideas in the map (except possibly that anyone ever called it Myos Hormus), only that we need to cite those claims, just as we would in text. We couldn't write "Nabataea was a Roman client state in 100 CE" without a citation, and it's the same to do so with an image. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 06:32, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
          • Sorry about that! My own maps I try to carefully document (File:BattleofTordesillas.PNG for an old example), but this one was pre-existing, hence it being tricky for me to do directly. Enyavar replied at Benutzer_Diskussion:Enyavar#Question_on_Ancient_Near_East_maps, and I used that to add this addition to the file description. Is that enough information, do you think?
            • As I read it, it's (slightly harshly put) a vague handwave towards "go check the bibliography in the relevant Wikipedia article?" I don't think that's enough, really: one, Wikipedia isn't a reliable source, two, that bibliography isn't necessarily stable, three, "it's somewhere in at least some of this huge list of books" isn't really precise enough. Really, we need something at the level of "For the geographical information, see maps on [these pages] of [these books]; see also a discussion of toponyms in [this gazetteer], and I've followed the view of [this book chapter] on the matter of [whatever]". UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 07:23, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • (de-indent) Haven't forgotten about this, just was traveling over the weekend and am back at work now. I put in requests at the library for atlases & maps; we'll see what they turn up. Unfortunately the easy-to-access batch was mostly not showing much detail, or was dated like the 1923 Shepherd map. (Side fun fact: did you know that the 2023 Atlas of the Classical World has a "Rome under Trajan" map advertised in its Table of Contents? It's a map of... the city of Rome, specifically, during the reign of Trajan. Sad trombone noises go here.) SnowFire (talk) 02:07, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Okay. Attempting to make an entirely new map at the level of detail of the original map is way, way too much work, so there's no way that's going to finish "in time" here. I've elected to just use a less detailed map instead. I've uploaded File:Eastern Mediterranean 125 political map eastern med.svg which has the original sources in the original map, and I've adjusted some of the city names to follow Talbert (2023) and verified a few others with other recent atlases. The Arabia Petraea region also follows the more conservative territory seen in most maps of the Roman Empire after 106 than the old 100 AD map. Hopefully this is considered sufficient enough sourcing. SnowFire (talk) 04:24, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• a Greek katabasis or nekyia: how come only the second gets italicised? I don't think katabasis is quite naturalised in English, at least among those who aren't Greek scholars. Smaller, but is a nekyia the right comparison here -- that usually involves, as Odysseus's does, standing more-or-less in the "real" world, being approached by the dead and asking questions of them?
  • I'm mostly mimicking Ehrman 2022 here. He leaves "katabasis" unitalicized (except on the very first introduction of the Greek term) but italicizes nekuia (with a u) everywhere. Bauckham 1998 does italicize katabasis though, and a quick search through the 2024 "In Context" shows two italicizations by Bremmer. I suppose I can switch it over, it's not a big deal. And I don't think there's a firm distinction, it's borderline, but to the extent that Peter & the disciples are tripping on a spiritual vision but while on Earth, you can argue it's a nekyia if your criteria is "happens on Earth" and if your criteria it that a true katabasis would involve actually VISITING a la Dante / ApocPaul, which is of course impossible in this case as it'd involve time travel.
• The link to Jewish Christians shouldn't cover "and achieve martyrdom", since being a martyr is, thankfully, not necessarily part of being a Jewish Christian.
  • Done, although now I'm a little worried it looks like the shoots are achieving martyrdom (when in the text, it's definitely the Jewish Christians).
• One theological issue of note: I would rephrase this sentence -- we generally avoid saying that things are notable, or should be noted -- it's taken as read that everything in a Wikipedia article is notable, and we do well to minimise the volume of our editorial voice.
  • I think this is a good general rule of Wikipedia writing, but similar to the concerns on "popular" above, this one I think needs some sort of callout. This is the theological issue and half the reason people are still writing about the Apoc Peter still today. It consumes a huge amount of what Beck, Ehrman, Bauckham, etc. have to say on the work; Ilaria Ramelli wrote a whole book on early Christian universalism that cites ApocPeter as an example for her thesis. Open to suggestions, but I think the importance of this passage needs to be emphasized in some way that makes it distinct from comparatively piddly stuff also discussed, like the names of angels.
    • OK, so let's say as much -- Beck writes that "the central theological issue of the text" is.... If we can't find anyone actually willing to put it in writing that it's so important, it's WP:SYNTH to infer it simply from the volume of scholarly writing on it. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 11:08, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      • We can, it's just that qualifying it in-text makes it sound like it's just one scholar's take, and it's broader in this case. It also calls even more attention to the matter up front before even describing it, rather than a brief side comment that's promising "read on and you'll find out why." Hence me preferring to simply state it as a fact - it's proven by all the referenced stuff later on to the pages and pages written on it.
      • I've removed it for now, though - the proper person to cite, if anyone, is Ilaria Ramelli here (for all that others think she overstates her case), and the Brill access for the Wikipedia Library is still down. :( If it comes back up, I'll re-check her $405 book to see if there's a suitably saucy quote to use, in the reference if nothing else.
• The Greek word "apocalypse": technically speaking, apocalypse is not a Greek word: I would transliterate apokalypsis here (and see note above on Greek words).
  • Done. Good idea, agree we should use the raw Romanized Greek here rather than the Latinized version.
• the work is pseudepigrapha: pseudepigrapha is plural, so I think you're on safer grammatical grounds to make this an adjective: pseudepigraphical.
  • Done.
• Christian-Jewish: this should be an endash, but I'm not sure what the join is meant to be here. Are we saying that it belongs to Jewish Christianity -- in which case, Jewish-Christian (with hyphen) would be better?
  • Switched to an ndash. And it wasn't restricted to Jewish Christianity, so that wasn't the intent... it's more like it belongs to Christianity, but had major Jewish influences.
    • Generally speaking, these kind of doublets are better written out with a full explanation. (I think MOS:DASH or MOS:HYPHEN says something to that effect. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 11:08, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      • I just cut "Jewish" - it's probably accurate, but it can be covered in the section on Himmelfarb's opinions.
• Plato's Phaedo is often held as a major example of the forerunning Hellenistic beliefs: this needs a bit more supporting material -- Plato's Phaedo is not Hellenistic.
  • It could be misread, but I feel that anyone capable of that misreading also knows enough to know what is "really" meant, that Plato was still current in the Hellenistic era and there were people called Platonists etc.? I switched it to the simple "Greek" though to avoid confusion.
    • Oh, yes, and Neoplatonism is a huge deal that might well need some sort of mention here. Switching to "Greek" solves the problem, I think. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 11:08, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Later scholarship by Martha Himmelfarb and others: as before, can we be more specific as to the date?
  • Himmelfarb's book was published in 1983, but "others" is harder to pin down. I suspect picking a date would be problematic though - it's not like everyone instantly agreed Himmelfarb was right (in fact, just as Dieterich was a maximalist "everything was Greek with minor Jewish flavor" that was probably wrong, Himmelfarb's maximalist "this is all based on lost Jewish stuff" hasn't actually found much support at the other end of the spectrum), and the process was probably somewhat gradual as people filtered in the parts of Himmelfarb's argument that were the best supported in the 1980s & 90s. (And I'm sure there were some scholars in the 1960s arguing for more Jewish influence who are annoyed if Himmelfarb took all the credit.) I think this one is best left for "click the wikilink on Himmelfarb, or hit the references, for more."
    • As above -- would "twentieth-century" of similar work? UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 11:08, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      • Rephrased to include that.
• Some scholars get introductions, others don't -- who was Albrecht Dieterich, for example? There are arguments on either side, but I think it's best to pick a lane -- either introduce everyone, or only those who aren't what you'd expect. This essay puts forward one common and very sensible approach -- essentially, if it's (e.g.) a classicist doing a work of classical scholarship, leave out the introduction as obvious, but do introduce them if they aren't' a conventional subject-matter expert -- for example, if a poet or mystic commented on the text.
  • I've usually used the "no intro" style except for very early in the article. I removed "The scholar" before Bauckham - if I missed any others, happy to remove them. The one intro I believe remains is for M. R. James, and that's because I want to mention he was English (but reading French translations of Ethiopic documents for fun, and connecting them to German translations of Greek he read & translated earlier. Just normal stuff).
• I struggled to get my head around the layout of the Predecessors section -- the chronology and provenance of texts involved seems very mixed, there's a lot of "probably" and "maybe" going on, and a few very short paragraphs. What's the logic at work here?
  • Unfortunately, there isn't really a "story" to tell here past the Greek vs. Jewish influence debate. It's more like "Scholar A detected a claimed influence here. Scholar B detected a claimed influence over here. Scholar C..." And some of these claimed influences really do need a "probable" disclaimer, because it's not like the passage says "As Ezra said in that one Greek book of his work..." Beck writes "It is important to acknowledge the uncertainty of source critical discussions". I've done my best to have something of a "narrative" here, but also want to avoid SYNTH.
  • On short paragraphs, here and elsewhere: My stance favors the "paragraphs should have a topic" writing style. Sometimes this leads to long paragraphs (as in the Canonicity section), but sometimes it leads to short paragraphs if there's just one person making one claim or the like. I'd rather avoid glomming together unrelated thoughts that suggests the Psalm 24 quote is linked with the postmortem baptism or the like. (And looking back, including Matthew in the "Greek katabasis vs. Jewish apocalypses" section is a little loose as is... Matthew does have an apocalyptic section but I don't go into that here.)
• the Apocalypse of Peter is distinct among extant literature of the period, and may well have been unique at the time: aren't all works of literature unique in some respect? I'm not a fan of the distinction between "being unique" and "adapting earlier writings" -- leaving aside people like Virgil, Dante and so on, we have things like the Cento Vergilianus de laudibus Christi, which is entirely original and unique despite not containing a single original line. Suggest getting to the meaty material as to what's distinctive about it sooner, and ideally offering more than one example.
  • I think Beck would agree with you! ("It is important to recognise the originality of the Apoc Pet"). The reason he's bringing up this seemingly anodyne point is... well, a lot of earlier scholarly literature is obsessed with proving X copied from Y and Y was stealing from Z and the like. He was agreeing with this sentiment, that let the work stand on its own (and implicitly criticizing all of the previous paragraphs of claimed sources).
  • As far as offering more examples - that's a little fraught. Honestly the example that's there is not great, because Beck himself is very much on the "ApocPeter is 80% mercy and 20% judgment" side of the debate, yet I've included an example on the judgment side (it's not sourced to Beck, but it is placed right after his statement). Beck's example is, of course, the extent of post-mortem salvation, that ApocPeter is a unique early proponent of universal-ish salvation. But that's already covered in detail elsewhere, so bringing it up in "Predecessors" too would feel a little odd.
• it is not known when the Clementine sections of the Ethiopic manuscripts containing the Apocalypse of Peter were originally written. Daniel Maier proposes an Egyptian origin in the 6th–10th centuries as an estimate, while Richard Bauckham suggests the author was familiar with the Arabic Apocalypse of Peter and proposes an origin in the 8th century or later.: this seems like it belongs in the section on manuscripts -- I don't really see its relevance in a section on the work's influence.
  • I'd say it counts. This isn't about the manuscript so much as the content of "The Second Coming of Christ and the Resurrection of the Dead" and "The Mystery of the Judgment of Sinners" - i.e. when were they written (probably before the manuscript itself) and what were they based on? Since it's right next to the ApocPeter and seems to mention it, it seems clear ApocPeter was a huge influence, in the same way that a 2024 sequel to a Shakespeare play is influenced by, well, the Shakespeare play itself it's adding to. That said, this section was called out as a bit confusing in the GAN review too, so maybe there's clearly an issue. Perhaps it could be demoted to a footnote? That feels a little Western-centric though, these Ethiopic additions were the only attention ApocPeter was getting for centuries, even if the Ethiopian church of the 8th-18th centuries isn't well covered in English.
• Later apocalyptic works inspired by it include the Apocalypse of Thomas in the 2nd–4th century, and more importantly, the Apocalypse of Paul in the 4th century: more importantly reads as pretty strong editorialising to me.
  • See above comments on the lead. I've changed it to "more influentially" to perhaps make less bold claims about Importance with a capital I, but make no mistake, the Apoc Paul was the important one here. It's really hard to understate how weirdly popular ApocPaul was - while most surviving apocrypha involve scholars poring over just 1 or 2 manuscripts carefully, we've got hundreds of surviving ApocPaul manuscripts in a variety of languages. It'd be like writing "The noodle incident inspired a number of early 20th century authors, including Fergus MacForgotten, Bob Irrelevant, and Agatha Christie." For the reader not familiar, there should be some call out that one member of this list is way, way more important the others.
• One notable tweak that the Apocalypse of Paul makes; see above re. notable, and MOS:IDIOM -- I would just axe this perambulatory clause.
  • While the origin might be as an origin to real-life things, I think a "tweak" as a term for any "small change" is fine? I checked Merriam-Webster, and it has "a small change or adjustment" and its first example is to tweaking a menu (which clearly is more metaphorical than a radio dial). I removed "notable". Can switch "tweak" to "change" if desired, but since this is on ApocPeter's influence on ApocPaul, I think "tweak" hints that ApocPaul was modifying an already-existing framework better, while a change could simply be a difference.
    • To me, "tweak" reads as more informal than we're going for: I think "change" would work. On the other hand, a more direct sentence structure might be even better -- something like The Apocalypse of Paul diverges from that of Peter in describing personal judgments to bliss or torment as happening immediately after death (the bold bit is I think a necessary change for clarity, in any case). UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 22:07, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• medieval monks that copied and preserved manuscripts in the turbulent centuries following the fall of the Western Roman Empire: I would do without turbulent centuries -- the third, fourth and fifth centuries were hardly serene and peaceful by comparison with the sixth, seventh and eighth.
  • Hmm, from the perspective of my armchair, I'm more convinced by the "the Roman Empire's fall was followed by a substantial crash in living conditions and economic disaster" camp. Not trying to imply that the 4th-5th century Western Roman Empire was particularly peaceful (3rd is too early for ApocPaul) of course, but they probably were substantially better for book preservation? My understanding is that these early centuries post-Fall were indeed very rough for manuscript preservation in the West by non-monks, since there were fewer rich nobles, scribes working for government officials, etc. that might have done it otherwise. And even if we take it as accepted that the 4th & 5th centuries were bad, that just means they were also turbulent. Despite the above, I'm happy to cut it if you feel strongly, just don't see the issue with a little bit of context that seems non-controversially true. (Really the best fix would be if we had a term that meant "late antique and Medieval" and we could just apply that modifier to the monks and then say "ever since it was published", but I can't think of any. And my vague understanding is that knowledge of ApocPaul in its first centuries is real vague anyway.)
    • It's really not non-controversially true, though -- it's not that the Early Medieval period was rosy, it's that the Late Roman period was pretty chaotic too. As I've said a few times, if you have a concrete statement in mind, like the idea that this was a particularly bad time for book preservation, it would be a good idea to say and cite that directly -- what we have at the moment is vague and fluffy, so it gives the reader an impression without actually presenting anything that could be falsified, and therefore without saying anything that could really be verified either. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 11:08, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      • What I mean is that this statement, strictly speaking, doesn't say anything about the late Roman period at all, just the periods afterward (and thus does not take a stand on exactly how bad the late Roman period was). It doesn't seem that vague and fluffy to me (it is bringing up the role of monks / monasteries in book preservation, yes), but as this is on a side topic anyway, I'm happy to kick it to the Apoc Paul article and let people click the wikilink. Cut to just "medieval monks".
        • Improved, I think. Now we have Despite this, it would go on to be popular and influential for centuries, possibly due to its popularity: firstly, this is a tautology (it was popular because it was popular -- what attracted monks to it in the first place?); secondly, can we adjust the repetition? UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 22:07, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
          • Rephrased to avoid the close repetition.
          • On why it was popular: I was happy to spend some text on explaining why monks mattered more than you'd expect (book copying / preservation), but going into why exactly the monks liked it is getting off-topic IMO. It's in the Apoc Paul article, but the short version is that it's very flattering to monks and spends time on monk interests - like, if you finish your vow of fasting, you will get a super-awesome apartment in the City of God near the center, but if you screw it up, you will be super-punished and thrown in a hole. Clergy & ascetics are the stars and get different fates than vanilla Christians - either much worse if they screw it up because expectations were higher, or much better if they do it well. But I don't think that's the relevant part for a section on ApocPeter's influence. I've tried to focus on the parts of ApocPaul that were clearly modifying existing Peter frameworks, but this aspect was just kinda new. (See Beck's comment elsewhere on Peter perceiving the righteous as a unified group - it's definitely a difference between Peter & Paul, as Paul thinks there's winners & losers even among the saved.)
          • On if it's a tautology: The current passage is describing who the "base" of support was (e.g. the equivalent of the Rocky Horror Picture Show superfans who kept would could have been an obscure commercial failure of a movie alive). Something like "Roger Ebert's strong advocacy of Hoop Dreams helped win the work wider popularity and acclaim." If you have a better suggestion on how to phrase that kind of message, happy to hear it, but as is I think it gets the point across?

More to follow -- greatly enjoying it so far, having just dipped my toe into apocalyptic literature for another (much less impressive) article. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 10:41, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• The damned themselves admit from their own lips: from their own lips is tautological here, and a bit flowery for an encyclopaedia. This sentence might also be clearer if in a dialogue with the angel Tatirokos, the keeper of Tartarus were moved to the front.
  • Switched the order. And while flowery (in an evil flower kinda way), it's definitely a powerful rhetorical technique still used today (in the same way that, say, political parties love to quote whenever a rival agrees with them, or just make up a quote on Twitter of the other side confessing to being super evil). See? They admitted it themselves, therefore we're right and it's okay.
    • I don't disagree, but powerful rhetorical techniques aren't our wheelhouse: neither the purpose of the website nor the (zero) authority claimed by its authors suits them, unfortunately. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 11:08, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      • Cut.
• It is possible that where there is no logical correspondence, the punishment has come from the Orphic tradition and has simply been clumsily attached to a vice by a Jewish redactor.: can we give some examples? I also think we could perhaps have done more to introduce Orphism further up.
  • We could, but the problem is that for every example, there will be someone else arguing that no, this one totally makes sense. Fiensy offers "unchaste maidens are clad in darkness and have their flesh torn and sorcerers are tormented on wheels of fire" but we actually introduce proposed explanations for these later (i.e. bodily correspondence in that the skin/flesh that sinned is torn, and mirror punishment for sorcerers). I've seen elsewhere that the punishment for usurers is weirdly lenient compared to the others (up to the... knees in excrement? That's not fun, but it's not nearly as horrible as some of the other stuff.) and is also rather disconnected, but it'd be weird to offer that as an example when Fiensy doesn't. Maybe I just need a better reference for this than Fiensy - will look for one, stay tuned.
  • As for introducing Orphism, I'm not even sure where to start. I'm not sure there's even a consistent canonical Orphism to go over - it'd be like introducing 1st century Judaism, there are entire books written on it. I think we may be stuck with "click on the wikilink for more".
  • SF from the future: I added in a line in Callon's paragraph clarifying that the sorcerers example is one of the ones Fiensy thought made no sense. Still trying to figure out if there's any way to sneak in a better descriptive bit for Orphism that doesn't side-track, but I feel like I'd need to read a book to turn that into a non-contentious, non-distracting adjective other than the existing "er it was Greek-philosophy influenced tradition."
• contests classifying the ethics of the Apocalypse as being that of lex talionis: those of, since ethics is plural. A short paragraph: can we close it up with something else?
  • I guess we could combine with the Callon paragraph as an "alternative non-lex-talionis views" but I don't think Ehrman and Callon actually agree. Would rather let them stand on their own, but I'm willing to do the merge if you feel strongly.
• often more symbolic in nature: more symbolic than what?
  • Than simple eye-for-an-eye. In Callon's example, eye-for-an-eye would be sorcerers suffering whatever harm their spells inflicted on others to themselves, while a poetic justice approach is more like the tool they used to gain power is now used to torture them, isn't that ironic.
    • So "more symbolic than reciprocal" or similar, or perhaps "determined more by symbolism than by the lex talionis? UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 11:08, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      • Went with your second suggestion.
• The text also specifies "ten" girls are punished: better to lose the quotes her per MOS:QUOTEPOV.
  • These aren't scare quotes though; it has the number "ten" in the text, it's an actual quote. I'd read it without the quotes as potentially implying that the actual text lists 10 specific women (a la Dante calling out specific people for punishment) but the Wikipedia article isn't bothering to list them. Normally I would fix this by making the quote longer and thus more obviously a quote, but the problem is the text literally says "10 virgins" or "10 maidens" are having premarital sex which I presume reads fine in Ethiopic, but will read confusingly in English where it'll sound illogical/impossible.
    • Well, yes, but "John states that he ate ten apples" also implies that John said the word "ten". If you want to make clear that it's ten fungible women, "a total of ten" would do well. The quotes don't strike the right tone -- they read as scare quotes, even if they aren't (this is the point of MOS:QUOTEPOV). UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 11:08, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      • I just went with dropping the quotes - "a total of" seems to draw even more attention to it and raise questions.
• {{Green|The Apocalypse of Peter is one of the earliest pieces of Christian literature to feature an anti-abortion message}: another very short paragraph.
  • Attaching this to another "thought" seems unwise; it's not really that connected. I'd rather keep it separate.
• The "Christology" section is very short indeed. Is that really the sum of all that has been written on the topic? If so, suggest rolling it in with another section. Ditto the "Literary merits" section, which could perhaps be repurposed as a sort of introduction to the "Analysis" section, without the subhead, unless there is more to say. Per MOS:FIGURES, don't start a sentence with a numeral.
  • Switched the sentence order.
  • I think placing the Literary Analysis section up front would give too much prominence to James' poison pen, IMO (The Ehrman reference discusses James opinion here only to criticize it as overly the-right-canon-prevailed triumphalist). I used the pre-section bit as an "intro" in Contents / Influences, but there isn't really much of an overall "Analysis" to be had which is already something of a grab-bag for "other stuff scholars talk about." I don't think these are that linked so would rather just have short, one-paragraph sections.
• which might have partially explained a lack of elite enthusiasm for canonizing it later: we haven't actually talked about this yet, so it comes across as vague and confusing.
  • A bit, but I don't think this is THAT confusing. We did mention already in the lede that it wasn't in the canon, so it's a minor flash-forward. More generally, I think this section is mostly on the "do scholars think this is actually well-written, coherent, etc." with the canonicity bit more a side comment. I think the article has a strong ending currently with the canonicity debate - moving this afterward would add a side "eh and here's another thought" afterward would dull the impact.
• One of the theological messages of the Apocalypse of Peter is generally considered clear enough: there are a couple of perambulatory phrases and sentences in the article like this one -- as in previous notes, I would advise simply cutting them and getting to the point of what we want to say. If you mean to indicate that most of the other theological points are unclear, state that explicitly.
  • I think you're reading this a bit more harshly than intended. I do describe a scholarly debate later in this paragraph on the "real" intent of the ApocPeter (both in its author and its early readers), but just wanted to set up that there do exist some baseline grounds scholars do agree on. And there's a subtle difference between "unclear" and "there is a scholarly debate" - the scholars on side A say it's very clear and obvious, just side B is wrong, and vice versa. I think it'd be a little bit editorializing to throw my hands up and declare that the problem is the text is unclear. (But yes, there is internal-to-the-text dissension on many of the messages, but the "monitory" message is clear. I'm citing Beck here because he is very much on the "ApocPeter as a scary morality play is overrated, it's not just about scaring people into compliance with the threat of hellfire" 'side', but even he grants that there's something of that in the story, just not the main thrust to him.)
• how can God allow persecution of the righteous on Earth and still be both sovereign and just?: similarly, in an encyclopaedia article (rather than an essay or an academic book chapter), we generally avoid direct/rhetorical questions in Wikivoice.
  • It's definitely not a rhetorical question, but a very hard one! Open to suggestions, but I cannot think of any other way to explain theodicy that doesn't introduce theology in Wikivoice, which is presumably worse. The article on the problem of evil even introduces the topic as a "question", and older theodicies were often explanations for major practical questions like "Why did God allow (disaster to happen)? Because...". Presumably atheists & Christians alike can agree that this is an issue that the author was trying to address, but elevating it from a question to a statement seems like it'd inherently annoy one side (e.g. simply stating the problem as a fact would annoy atheists as assuming a God did indeed allow anything, while including qualifiers like "so-called" would annoy theists).
    • We should make it an indirect question: "the problem of how God can allow...", to quieten down the authorial voice and make it clear that it isn't a rhetorical question. I'm sure the theodicy article does it a few times. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 11:08, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      • Rephrased as you suggested - take a look.
• and contains elements of both messages: similarly, this is simply a rephrasing of what was said before -- best cut.
  • Strong disagree here. Your wording is certainly more concise, but concision isn't everything; this one is intentional, for emphasis and clarity, and does indeed add something IMO. It's not as if there's a mercy-o-meter that there's a single setting for consistent across the work; the extra comment is hinting that while passage A might strongly indicate a preference for justice, passage B might do so for mercy, and passage C for both simultaneously. I think it's better writing to include this, and makes the sentence read much better to my eyes. (Side note: I'm not an expert here, but while on the topic of old religious writings, a theme seen in old Hebrew is repetition-for-emphasis as well - random Psalms will say something like "God is [X] and [CLOSE SYNONYM FOR X]". I don't think it's a mistake, and it can read rather well in English too.) I dunno, this might be a weird one to plant my flag on, but this one I feel significantly stronger about than the others - this passage is my writing style and I'd rather keep it like this unless there's an outright error here. We're allowed a few spare words to dress things up, and this particular issue is one of the top most useful places to spend them IMO. (Apologies in advance if I come across as an eccentric on this!)
• may not have fit the mood: I think this is a bit too informal, and perhaps on the wrong side of MOS:IDIOM.
  • You say "informal", I say "accessible to a general audience." ;-) But more seriously, I could replace with "intellectual milieu" or "zeitgeist" or the like but those seems both less accessible and less accurate, so I'm not super keen on doing so. Do you have any suggestions? It's tricky because Christianity was hardly a monolith in that era, so it needs to be a word indicating a similarly vague current-of-thought.
• three tabernacles here on Earth: here is best cut for concision -- those few people who read this article on the International Space Station can complain on the Talk page if needed.
  • In a vacuum, I agree, but there's an issue here. The text actually just says "My Lord, do you wish that I make three tabernacles here, one for you and one for Moses and one for Elijah?" In other words, "here" is the word original to the text, and "on Earth" is an in-sentence gloss. I think we'd need to cut "on Earth" first if we wanted to shorten this, but then Jesus's objections would come across as somewhat nonsensical, hence clarifying Peter's proposed tabernacles were in the mortal realm and Jesus's tabernacle was heavenly.
• Make sure that Latin titles, such as Hypotyposes, are in lang templates.
  • Done.
• Quite a few of the citation templates used in footnotes are throwing Harvard errors -- use this script to catch them, then add |ref=none to fix them.
  • (I saw this, but will hold off, since it involves installing scripts. To be edited later.)
  • Well, these were warnings not errors, and they're acceptable warnings in this case IMO. Still, I fixed this in the "Bibliography" section. Elsewhere, I'm more inclined to "blame" the script - User_talk:Trappist_the_monk/HarvErrors#Citation_bundles indicates that this is a known quirk, where the script doesn't get that citation bundles shouldn't have such a warning. I can still change it if truly desired, but per above, it doesn't appear to actually be an error in the citation.
    • Adding |ref=none solves the "problem" in either case, and improves readability for those regular editors who use that script with no real loss for anyone else. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 06:26, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      • I've added ref=None for the remaining warnings.

That's my lot on a first pass -- quite a few comments, but please don't take the quantity as a reflection of the quality of the article -- most are very small and will be quickly resolved. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 12:45, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks again for the extensive review! Here's a diff of changes so far (no section swap), and the section order swap separate diff. Will investigate the other comments as well. SnowFire (talk) 07:57, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the prompt replies -- I haven't got to all of them; most are absolutely find and need no reply, and I've put a few responses above where I think one is needed. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 11:08, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

FYI, I haven't forgotten about this - just had an unexpectedly busy Labor Day weekend & travel + not wanting to do some of these fixes before I could hit the books again. Will hopefully respond soon-ish now that I have a tad more free time. SnowFire (talk) 08:44, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not at all -- I still have a few of your replies that I need to get my head around. If they're still below the "Resolved" collapse box, I'm meaning to get to them. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 12:46, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the replies! Did another pass - see diff. SnowFire (talk) 21:52, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks -- I'm working my way through; it's going a bit slowly but hopefully steadily. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 06:29, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• A small one, but we're inconsistent about whether scholarship should be related in the present or past tense. I was taught to use the present for "live" views and the past when discussing the history of scholarship (with the implication that views related in the past tense were no longer considered mainstream), but as ever with these things any consistent system is fine. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 06:29, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I did a tense pass. Here's the tentative rules I applied: Dead scholars get past tense. Scholars who argued a position notably but later changed their mind also get past tense (don't think that ever comes up - maybe Bauckham softening some on 2 Peter vs. ApocPeter timing? That's hidden in a reference anyway.). Living scholars get present tense. Scholarly summations - your system sounds good, so went with past tense for when the vibes are this position is dated, but kept present tense if there are notable scholars still propounding the position. Some constructions not directly about scholarly views remained as is (i.e. "the fragment is dated" where it's talking about something else).
  • Anyway, most recent diff. Also feel free to speak up if I said I did something but then didn't do it - that's probably just an error (I seem to find myself responding to these at 3-4 AM while unable to sleep...). SnowFire (talk) 09:11, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Just gone through looking to close this off -- I've made some copyedit suggestions, including one to the "fit the mood" problem above. One remaining issue: I see considering the reservations various church authors had on the Apocalypse of John (the Book of Revelation), it is possible similar considerations were in play. -- do we ever say what those considerations were? UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 20:43, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Your changes look fine to me.

    On Revelation: Unfortunately, I don't think either set of considerations / objections are known (hence the "it is possible" wording). That said, that line was added very early in my expansion and it looks like I was a little loose on sourcing it at the time. I do think it's true but should probably get a direct attribution to scholar XYZ - I've commented it out for now. If I find a good source to restore it, I'll see what it says and if it includes any hypotheses. (Just it's often speculating at gaps - why did writer XYZ not mention it? and why did writer ABC just call it disputed? Very vague.) . SnowFire (talk) 06:06, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    • Has nobody taken a stab at it -- or said that it's unknown? I think one or the other would help: as we've phrased it, it sounds like there are known reasons about Revelation, which might apply to ApocPeter. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 07:23, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      • @UndercoverClassicist: I've reorganized the section and placed in a reference to "The Oxford Handbook of Revelation." It's still mildly sketchy since it's tying together a thought spread across two sources, but I think it's fine given that Nicklas does directly raise the matter of the Apocalypse of Peter's status as being comparable to Revelation.
      • Also, on an earlier note, I've snuck in a reference outside the Hatnote to the Gnostic & Arabic Apocalypses of Peter - in the name footnote, of all places. Added in another 2022 source as well (Batovici) - it's nothing new, but useful as another layer of verification. Also, see above, but I've uploaded a new map and verified it against recent Atlases, and have more pictures of scholarly Atlases if really required. SnowFire (talk) 04:24, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

        Support: almost all of this article is well outside my area of expertise, but it certainly has the look, feel and flavour of an FA, and I'm satisfied with all the amendments and fixes made during this (lengthy!) review. Credit to SnowFire for their patience and good humour with the process, and I hope they feel it has been of benefit to the article. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 06:21, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Borsoka

• The citation style of the article is inconsistent. Several sources referred to in the "Reference" section, are not listed in section "Bibliography" (for instance, Metzger). Some references are rather notes (I refer to, for example, references 16 and 43). Do not verify a statement with a note (for instance, this is the case in the two last sentences in section "Date of authorship").
  • I explained my citation style above in discussion with UC, and it's consistent and keeping with WP:CITEVAR. I'll copy-paste what I wrote there:
    • The citation style I use is that sources that are cited a lot over multiple page ranges go in the Bibliography, and everything else is a normal reference. There is a method to the madness here - when seeing the reference previews from hover (desktop) or press (mobile), the strict page ranges are a little less helpful than a full reference. So if everything can fit in a single reference (say JK Elliot's Apocryphal New Testament writeup, or Maurer / Mueller's, or random journal articles), I stick it there. I personally consider it an antipattern that if there's a source only used in one spot, a strict "everything in the bibliography, short references only" style forces a secondary lookup / hover to track it down when it could have just been connected at the start. This also has the benefit of the Bibliography being a genuine "read these 6 books to learn about ApocPeter" bibliography that cuts to the core, most-used sources recommended to read, rather than a grab-bag.
    • Now, there is one quirk with this article, which is that there's two heavily cited monograph collections in the Bibliography (the 2003 Apocalypse of Peter edited by Bremmer, and the 2024 collection edited by Maier et al). For those, I stuck them there anyway due to their importance, but all of the references are separated out as citations to individual chapters, since the chapters have different authors. And those are usual full citations.
  • Metzger is used in more than one spot but it's not mostly on the Apocalypse of Peter, while the sources listed in Bibliography are. I'd rather keep it as is unless you feel this is truly a problem, but I'd be curious why it's a problem - clicking a Metzger page range will show the Metzger book just fine.
  • On long references: 16 isn't really appropriate as a note, IMO. It's a "see these original sources for more" which is exactly what a reference is. I've reserved notes for "prose that a reader might be interested in, but keeping it in the main article would distract the flow on a minor point and it isn't strictly required." A bunch of links to old journal articles is useful IMO, hence including it, but it's clearly a reference. 43 is more borderline, but that is again a reference IMO. I'm trying to avoid the antipattern many articles use of, when there's scholarly dissension, just citing both and letting the reader figure things out by saying up front that you can see different slants at different references. I could see a reverse complaint where if I only had the scholarly references, someone might complain about text-source integrity that actually, this other reference says something slightly different than what the text does. A more fully explained reference fixes the problem IMO. I believe my style is valid per CITEVAR where explaining some references does not automatically qualify something for footnote status. WP:EXPLNOTESECT explicitly says that having a notes section at all is optional, and there are FAs that entirely eschew a notes section and stick everything in references, including detailed note-like references. Given that, I have to assume that there is discretion on the article author to choose what qualifies for a note and what qualifies as a reference.

• • I would not expect explanations in references. I think the present method is not fully in line with WP:CITEHOW
    • A simple "Lastname Year p. 100" is the basic case, sure, but I would say that WP:FOOTQUOTE covers this - "Sometimes, however, it is useful to include additional annotation in the footnote, for example to indicate precisely which information the source is supporting." For ref 43, say, I don't think Lapham's view on the transfiguration parallel is so significant that it merits discussion in a full reader-facing footnote, but that including Lapham as a reference unadorned could create a complaint that it's missing subtleties in the position. There's no perfect fix here, but having a somewhat fuller citation is basically harmless and not at all unusual, and makes a lot of sense for articles with strong references yet sometimes contrasting results.

• • The notes in "Date of Authorship" all have detailed references (5 refs in the Bar-Kokhba note, say). I suppose I can replicate all of them again in-prose, but I really don't see the point, and it makes it harder for a well-meaning reader to actually get sent to the note of approachable prose I want them to read, rather than the reference that they probably don't care about. I checked 3 FAs at random, and all 3 of them were using notes-with-references-in-the-note as well, suggesting this isn't an unknown style (and not just "middle of the paragraph" stuff - I'm talking notes at the end of the paragraph, with the ref in the note).
• Introduce people when they are first mentioned in the text: Richard Bauckham > the theologian/Biblical scholar Richard Bauckham; Gaston Maspéro > the Egyptologist Gaston Maspéro, etc.
  • Unfortunately, if you read Undercover Classicist above, he recommended doing precisely the reverse of this in his review and not introducing anyone unless it's surprising or out-of-field, and so I just went around removing some of these recently. I can't comply with both requests. If someone wants to offer a third opinion, I'll vary it up with whatever the majority says, as I think this is purely a stylistic preference where both ways can work.

• • @UndercoverClassicist: your thoughts? I would like to know who Richar Bauckham, Gaston Maspéro, etc in the article because their name provides no information about their relevance. Borsoka (talk) 02:32, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There are a few schools of thought on this -- to me, the overarching principle here would be the FAC mantra that "if it's consistent and it works, it's fine". Personally, I used to be in the school of "introduce everyone", but discussions at some FACs here (from memory, this was prominent at Beulé Gate) have pushed me more towards not generally introducing people where that introduction would be "this person is the sort of expert you'd expect to see quoted here). Some of the reasons for this are:

• False distinctions -- particularly in a field like this one, there aren't bright lines between e.g. "theologian/religious historian/scholar of Judaism", and choosing one epithet over the other can give a misleading impression that two people are coming at this from very different angles, or else misrepresent the field. Even worse, titles like "scholar" or "writer" sometimes disguise the fact that the person isn't really an expert in this topic at all.
• False precision -- if we implicitly endorse someone as "the historian X...", we give readers the sense that they are all equally qualified and worth listening to, which isn't often the case. The oft-cited user essay on this point uses the example of David Irving, who would need a lot more context than that.
• Repetition -- readers will generally assume that we don't quote people who aren't worth listening to, so if the introduction does nothing more than say "this person is worth listening to", it's tautological and adds needless words (and so takes away from the article's clarity). This is a similar argument to why we don't write things like "a notable fact is..." or "it is important that...".

With that said, if the person being quoted is not a run-of-the-mill current expert, there are good arguments for introducing them -- particularly if:

• The article is very interdisciplinary, and people are coming at it from very different perspectives (see Ove Jørgensen, where I had to introduce practically everyone to be clear if they were a classicist, a ballet scholar or a personal acquaintance of the subject).
• The view is particularly dated, or otherwise considered obsolete.
• They are being used as something other than an academic expert: this came up a lot in Homeric Hymns, where classicists/philologists/literary scholars were generally not given epithets, but people like Ezra Pound, who passed judgement on the topic from a different perspective, were introduced to make clear that their expertise was different from that of the (many) academics mentioned elsewhere.

That's quite a lot of verbiage to say "it's really a moot point", but I hope it helps. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 06:22, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I still think that introducing the scholars mentioned in the article is the best method: if a scholar is to be named in an article for whatever reason we should not be forced to make a research for them and a scholar's name itself is not informative. Encyclopedic approach itself leads to simplifications: we are summarising the content of lengthy scholarly studies. I would ignore the "oft-cited user essay" for it has only been visited 41 times this year (5 times on the same day indicating that somebody referred to it in a discussion [25]). Borsoka (talk) 02:27, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Why are not the titles of works/texts italicised?
  • See MOS:NEITHER, where "religious texts" aren't italicized. e.g. Revelation, not Revelation.
• The first section's title does not reflect the text.
  • I've switched the title to "Authorship and date" if that helps better make clear the scope.
• The Apocalypse of Peter seems to have been written between 100 AD and 150 AD. 1. Another cited source writes of a different timeframe (Metzger (1987), p. 184). 2. None of the two years mentioned in the sentence are certain. 3. Rephrase to avoid PoV language.
  • For 1, I wasn't citing Metzger there? He's writing a 3-page short summary. I'm trying to use the highest quality sources for the main topic, which means scholars who have dedicated a bit more space to ApocPeter. There is already some dissension here that is already discussed (i.e. Bauckham arguing for a more specific dating); I didn't feel Metzger's narrower range was worth going into because he doesn't explain why at all and he's not an ApocPeter expert. It's just a difference, that happens all the time, it'd blow the article up to 5x the length if every small scholarly difference was discussed. (Metzger is a fantastic source overall on the topic of the formation of the canon, but the scholarly estimates of when precisely ApocPeter was written? Probably not. More sources say 100 as the start date, or even earlier if the 4 Esdras reference is discarded as too weak.)
  • For 2, I absolutely agree, but that's why I wrote "Seems". I guess you're arguing for a "circa"? But having both "seems" and "Circa" would be essentially repeating, and including only "circa" would be too subtle for some casual readers who might not catch the abbreviation.
  • For 3, I don't see anything POV here at all. If this means "seems" again, to be clear, the authors themselves acknowledge a range of possibilities. Text-source integrity requires communicating this uncertainty in text.
• These Ethiopic versions appear to have been translated from an Arabic version, which itself was translated from the lost Greek original. Who says this and why?
  • First off - I refactored this section during the FAC, and I think the ref to this got shuffled around. I've replaced it; Bauckham p. 162 covers it (as well as p.254, but that's just repeating it). I also threw in a ref to Müller 1991 (Which is a bit more acknowledging of the possibility of it not being accurate.)
  • As for who says it: Everyone, pretty much. Beck writes "if the Ethiopic text of the Apoc Pet was translated from Arabic, as many have suggested" (p. 161 of his thesis) and then cites 7 full sources. While it's not proven (no Arabic manuscript exists; Müller writes "That the Ethiopic translation could be very old, and made directly from the Greek, remains a possibility"), most scholars seem to accept it as the most likely, and it's not controversial to my knowledge. As to why: well most of the scholars don't go into this, just pass by as accepted knowledge. Since I haven't seen any scholars argue against it, I didn't go into detail, but used the weaker verb "Appears" to indicate it wasn't conclusively shown.
  • As for why: This is a frustrating question! Lots of scholars said this as already noted, but the references often go to just other scholars saying it too (and one to a very bum reference... the 2010 paper on Z'RL cites Bratke 1893, who was fruitlessly searching for an Arabic-Ethiopic Apocalypse of Peter via mishmash of quotes before d'Abbadie was publicized, i.e. worthless). Well, from SnowFire, Buchholz talks about how essentially many works in Ethiopic came from Arabic translations, so it wouldn't be weird. And the Ezreal thing already mentioned in-article seems like it'd fit with coming from Arabic / Islam. But I'm not seeing a lot here. The best I can say is that C. D. G. Müller was specifically an Ethiopanist and linguist of languages of the region, not a scholar of religion who happened to be interested in an Ethiopic document, and if he thinks that the document was probably a translation from Arabic, I'm fine with deferring to him. (And he's a recent-ish source, writing in the 1980s.)

• • I think the sentence could be rephrased to avoid PoV language: "According to scholarly consensus/Most specialists think that/.... these Ethiopic versions were translated from Arabic rather than from the original Greek text."

• • • • Done, but I'm not a fan of this as a general principle. Most of the article is an attempt at describing scholarly consensus, and I don't want to imply other sections aren't - that should be the default on Wikipedia when not attributing a fact.
        • As a general principle I am not a fan of this either but if reliable sources verifies the statement we should inform our reader that they are reading a well established theory, not only the assumptions of one single scholar or an editor. Borsoka (talk) 02:33, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• The d'Abbadie manuscript is estimated to have been created ... By whom and why?
• ...the Lake Tana manuscript is from perhaps the 18th century According to whom?
  • These are both in the reference already given for the sentence. Buchholz cites Carlo Conti Rossini for dating the d'Abbadie manuscript (a 1912 article just ~2 years after Grebaut's publication), and Ernst Hammerschmidt for dating the Lake Tana manuscript (the same 1973 Hammerschmidt paper already mentioned in another reference, actually). I can add these details to the reference if desired but I figured that as an overview article rather than a book, these details are too much in the weeds. In general, the style I've gone for is to only cite people who are arguing for controversial positions, and state uncontroversial stuff as fact with "who said this" in the reference. (The dating of Akhmim was attributed in prose only because there are a wide range of estimates there, so those more specific estimates had to be attributed.)

• I do not want to read references to have basic info. :) Borsoka (talk) 02:32, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Done. That said, in side chatter, there's already quite a lot of "scholar X said this" in the article (and if you check the page history of the cited scholars, you'll see that I created the Wikipedia articles on them). So it's something I personally am interested in, but my impression is that general readers are only interested if there's actually a nerd fight to be had (e.g. Martha Himmelfarb criticizing the ghost of Albrecht Dietrich), not just simple attributions of who said something noncontroversial first.

• Mention that the Bodleian library is in Oxford. Borsoka (talk) 02:36, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Done.
• Despite some pushback above, thanks for taking a look and doing a review! Happy to answer any questions or discuss the above further. SnowFire (talk) 06:15, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Borsoka: Made some changes (diff). SnowFire (talk) 02:25, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Borsoka: Ping again - any other feedback? I think I've answered most of the above, just tell me if I missed something. (And some sort of cautious approval with the disapproval of the "Context Considered Harmful" essay / style is fine too - if there's ever a wider consensus shift there, I'm sure the article will update as well to put back the word "scholar" in front of various people's names.) SnowFire (talk) 04:10, 5 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • I doubt that the word "scholar" is missing in front of various scholar's name. I would surely be more specific. Borsoka (talk) 02:00, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Hi Borsoka, I was wondering if you felt in a position to either support or oppose this nomination? Obviously, neither is obligatory. Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 20:51, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Coordinator note

This has been open for more than three weeks now without a single support for promotion. I'm afraid it's at the risk of archival if there's no significant progress over the next three days or so. FrB.TG (talk) 15:26, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Johnbod

• Pretty clearly there, after a good going over by others. Just a few nitpicks:
• Is there a convention that we don't italicize the titles of even apocryphal New Testament texts? New Testament apocrypha is a mess in this respect. Things like The Shepherd of Hermas should certainly have italics.
  • I'm mostly going off MOS:NEITHER which seems to recommend no italics as a Wikipedia convention. As for what the sources do, it's a mess - some italicize, some don't. In general, I think the Wikipedia standard is attempting to draw the line at "did people take this seriously as scripture" vs. works that might have had religious opinions, but nobody took as even an attempt to be "apostolic" (e.g. Dialogue with Trypho for a contemporary example). And if that is indeed the line, than ApocPeter and Shephard of Hermas both don't qualify, as they were indeed taken as scripture. (Even stuff like 1 Clement was in old copies of scriptures!) The expansion under "religious texts" says that "relatively obscure" religious texts can be italicized, but then also talks about books published in modern times - e.g. stuff like The Urantia Book. On balance, I think the current guideline suggests no italics, but happy to discuss a sharper standard on Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Titles of works if desired?
    • I don't really agree with this, though clearly the area is messy. I think the style used at our articles should probably be followed, so The Shepherd of Hermas. Johnbod (talk) 05:59, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      • Well, chose our poison, consistency within this article or consistency with other Wikipedia articles. I'd rather have what's within one article consistent and not italicize, it seems jarring - especially in areas like the lists of works when nobody was sure what later centuries would deem apocryphal and what wasn't yet (e.g. Eusebius does not know that Jude will become canonical but Barnabas won't, so he certainly isn't setting out such a distinction). That said, I have switched it over anyway, but I think it reads weirdly. SnowFire (talk) 01:24, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• "and Hellenistic philosophy from Greek culture" also sounds very odd to me. There are links for the appropriate "Greek culture", but a reword is also needed, or a cut.
  • On adding a link: Hmm, I'm not so sure! We aren't sure where this was written, so the kind of Greek culture would vary between Egypt, Judea, Christian Rome, etc. I'm open to suggestions - as mentioned to UC above, the idea was to hint to casual readers what "Hellenistic" means (since casuals read the lede but nothing else), but I give up for now and just cut it. Happy to hear any suggestions for alternative ways to sneak in what Hellenistic means.
    • Well, Hellenistic period is the obvious one, but repeats the H word. Maybe "and later Greek philosophy from the Hellenistic period"? Johnbod (talk) 05:59, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      • Done, although I cut "later" as that might make it sound like the work was inspired by "later" philosophy in the sense of after the work's creation.
• the link from "extant" to Ancient literature seems pretty useless. "Surviving" is often a better word choice than "extant".
  • Removed link (I don't think I was the one who added it). And while I agree in general, I think "surviving" reads a little oddly here - it's used in the next paragraph but with "earliest surviving" which I think provides more context, so I think "extant" hopefully works. (But can still change it if you really feel strongly.)
• "After inquiring for signs of the Second Coming of Jesus" - is "inquiring" the right word here? Or explain who is inquiring.
  • Expanded to "the disciples." And yeah, they inquire ("And we asked him..."). My only worry is that now we're suddenly introducing the disciples in the lead when they barely matter (they appear as just background flavor as an entourage for Peter), but oh well.
• "and details both heavenly bliss for the righteous and infernal punishments for the damned" odding phrasing - participles needed and "sets out" or something.
  • Usual "I'm an American" comment goes here, but it sounds fine to me? I ran your comment past a person who once was a professional copyeditor I know and he wasn't sure what the complaint was either. "Details" is an unusual verb but not unheard of.
• ridiculous imo to object to the Divine Comedy being described as "famous", but whatever.
• Personally I'd put all or most of notes 2 & 3 into the main text. Maybe n. 4 too
  • Hmm. I'm tempted, but there is a reason I did it this way... for the somewhat-casual reader reading sequentially, the part they're interested in is "Contents". But as mentioned above, the manuscript history is unfortunately necessary to cover first, so that "Ethiopic vs. Akhmim vs. Rainer" debates make sense. As such, I've tried to have those sections be written tightly and concisely so that the general gist is acquired, and why I stuck the deeper scholarly debates in footnotes. It's extra tricky because the scholarly debates on the specifics of authorship require knowing something about the contents, which we haven't read yet if we're a hypothetical reader reading sequentially! If this was a book, it'd be something like "Intro -> Contents -> More about Authorship" but I don't think Wikipedia style is to have an "Authorship, part II" in analysis. As such, moving it into a footnote (I'm using the noisier, longer "Note 1" as well to signify this isn't just a citation) lets the content be in the article in the expected section, but without disrupting the flow. Well, that's my argument at least. Do you think that's good enough reason here, or would you still rather have more info moved out and into prose?
• link "risen Christ"? Also "Moses and Elijah", "Elysian field" at first mention, "Sibylline Oracles" at 2nd rather than 3rd mention, Clementine literature at 1st, Alexandria,
  • I was trying to avoid WP:SEAOFBLUE, but don't feel too strongly about it, so added the Risen Christ & Alexandria link. Moses and Elijah are already linked? Unless you meant them together, but that's just the Transfiguration which is also already linked. Elysian field is linked at first mention in the prose (rather than in the quote, since it's in both the quotes). Sibylline Oracles are linked at first mention in "Authorship and date". They aren't linked in "Prayers for those in hell", but I think you're referring to the link in the quote - but I don't think such links in a quote attribution "count" per usual standards on say image caption links not counting either. Clementine literature is linked at first appearance in "Manuscript history", then linked again in a separate section (in compliance with the updated WP:DUPLINK guidelines) in "Later influence" but again first appearance in that section.
• "the Apocalypse of Peter is classed as part of apocalyptic literature in genre" reads a bit oddly - "the Apocalypse of Peter is classed as part of the genre of apocalyptic literature" perhaps?
  • Those read identically to me, but I don't feel strongly, so sure, switched.
• "was on determining its predecessor influences" reads awkwardly imo
  • I'm not a huge fan of the existing phrasing myself, but it's a relevant point - a works "influences" can mean both forward & backward, and I want to specify it was specifically the earlier influences that this scholarship was interested in. But they can't be called "predecessors" directly as that's highly contested and probably not accurate, they're just influences. Open to suggestions, but I think the somewhat awkward "predecessor influences" is at least precise to what is being meant.
• "possibly a loose callback" - too slangy
  • It's an overloaded word that has other problems, but if you dislike callback, I've switched to "reference" instead. (But I'm somewhat worried about it being misread as the encyclopedia sense rather than the literary/traditional sense.)
• "with a high Christology" - is this a term often used? Perhaps needs explaining. I doubt the link will help much.
  • This one we're stuck with - it's an academic term, but it's definitely the one used. Both Beck ("The use of such titles in these chapters reveals a high Christology") and Buchholz ("These titles are evidence of a high christology") specifically use the term, so not much to do other than wikilink it for people to look it up. I think the context and the term itself gives a pretty good guess to what it means.
    • Ok Johnbod (talk) 05:59, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• "is generally dated to the last quarter of the 2nd century (c. 170–200 AD)" slightly jarring maths failure here. Just use the dates?
  • It's historical guesstimate ranges in this case, was not intended to imply a precise 25-year period nor a precise 30-year period. That said, changed, went with "late 2nd century".
    • Ok Johnbod (talk) 05:59, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• You are right not to be pressured to change your citation method.

Btw, if we can get this finished by Thursday it would be good, as then I'm away for 10 days. Johnbod (talk) 19:13, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Johnbod (talk) 18:59, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• • @Johnbod: Thanks for the review! Made some changes (diff). (Sorry about the delay, got absolutely slammed at work yesterday.) SnowFire (talk) 05:30, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Johnbod: Some more edits - diff. SnowFire (talk) 01:24, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Ok, thanks, moving to Support. Johnbod (talk) 21:42, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Dudley

• "It is the earliest-written extant document depicting a Christian version of heaven and hell in detail." This is clumsy and misleading. I thought at first it meant an original 2C document. Why not " It is the earliest detailed depiction of a Christian version of heaven and hell."
  • Including "extant" is important because at least some scholars think that there indeed might have been preceding versions (Himmelfarb) that have been lost to time.
  • It isn't misleading either, although I will grant that it is a somewhat complex situation (but that's the fault of the situation, not the sentence). All of our most ancient manuscripts of this period long postdate when they were originally written. That said, scholarship is usually more interested in the original date of writing of such works, not the date of the oldest surviving manuscript that happens to include them. Saying "earliest-written extant" is correct because it means that of extant works, it was authored the earliest (regardless of the 5th & 6th century fragments we have from later). Leading with this information is correct and offers due weight to what the sources are most interested in, the date of authorship. I've substituted "document" for "work" if this will make this interpretation less likely, although we have a close repetition of "work" now, so it's not ideal.
  • As for "clumsy", I don't see a significant difference between "depicting" and "depiction". It reads fine to me as is. Switching "in detail" to "detailed" can subtly change the sense, too... "in detail" is a sop that there are some brief depictions of hell elsewhere that are earlier (e.g. in the Revelation of John), but this work goes into detail (i.e. full chapters devoted to it). "Detailed" doesn't portray this as strongly; to me, something can be called "detailed" but only be one or two sentences long, if it's just evocative or the sentences are crowded.
• "The text is extant in two diverging versions". "diverging" is the wrong word. It means moving apart. Maybe "different"?
  • That's the intended word. If you read further, scholarly speculation is that there was an original ApocPeter (perhaps partially preserved in the Rainer / Bodleian fragments), and it diverged into different "editions" by editor, the Ethiopic version (which made some changes to the hypothesized original) and the Akhmim version (which made a lot of changes to the hypothesized original). So yes, the editions did indeed split and become further apart literarily.
• "The Apocalypse of Peter is a forerunner of the same genre as the Divine Comedy of Dante". This does not seem fully supported in the main text. You say there that the Apocalypse of Peter influenced the Apocalypse of Paul, which influenced the Divine Comedy, but "forerunner of the same genre as the Divine Comedy of Dante" implies a larger set of medieval works.
  • The body writes that ApocPeter is a "Christian katabasis, a genre of explicit depictions of the realms and fates of the dead", which the Divine Comedy is also. When the word "forerunner" is used, it's mostly as a sop that later journeys to the afterlife would make some significant revisions, but they're both still broadly a katabasis. It's including the full range of later katabases in that statement (e.g. ApocPaul), not just the ones of Dante's day. (Although, as a side note, even if a reader somehow did interpret it as about medieval katabases specifically, then it's still accurate - there were indeed medieval examples, albeit more obscure than Dante - the Legend of the Purgatory of St. Patrick for one. I agree the body doesn't go into detail on specifically medieval katabases, but that would seem off-topic.)
• "After reading the French translations, the English scholar M. R. James realized in 1910 that there was a strong correspondence with the Akhmim Greek Apocalypse of Peter, and that an Ethiopic version of the same work was within this cache." This needs clarification. What does a "strong correspondence" mean in this context? How could it have told him that there was a version of the Apocalypse in the cache?
  • It means that the passages were very similar, so similar as to suggest it was not a quote but a full translation of the same work. You can read James's 1910 article in the reference if you're interested in more - it's public domain / on Wikipedia library ( JSTOR link). He does a side-by-side of the Akhmim Greek with Grebaut's French translation. I don't think any clarification is required - this is just the normal meaning of correspondence, and James uses that word exactly (e.g. "Here begins the equivalent of the description of Hell which we possess in Greek. The opening words are corrupt in the Ethiopic, but the correspondence is unmistakeable.") James had previously argued in journal articles that he thought it was likely there were some fuller copies of the Apocalypse of Peter (which he'd already studied via patristic quotations & Akhmim), and here's a source that matches patristic quotations very well and Akhmim tolerably, so maybe we've found a translated version of the original Greek Apocalypse of Peter.
• "the Lake Tana manuscript is estimated by Ernst Hammerschmidt to be from perhaps the 18th century". "from perhaps" is clumsy and ambiguous. Does is mean around 18C or maybe 18C but maybe from a very different period?
  • It sounds ambiguous because it is ambiguous. I'm just reflecting the source here. Here's a fuller quote from Buchholz: "The manuscript is not dated, but its style of letter formation is quite different from that in T (the d'Abaddie manuscript). Hammerschmidt ventures to guess the eighteenth century but follows this with a question mark to indicate how uncertain is the date." Hammerschmidt himself isn't certain, so "perhaps" is required to accurately represent his position.
• More to follow. Done to end of Later influence. Dudley Miles (talk) 20:05, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks for taking a look! Replies above. SnowFire (talk) 02:13, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• In my opinion, your use of language is sometimes clumsy and confusing, but other editors obviously disagree, so I will discontinue this review and leave it to them. Dudley Miles (talk) 10:14, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Image review by Generalissima

• Apocalypse of Peter Akhmim Plate vii.png - PD
• Eastern Mediterranean 125 political map eastern med.svg - CC BY SA
• File:Bodleian fragment Apocalypse of Peter MS. Gr. th. f. 4 (P).jpg - PD
• File:Eugène Delacroix - The Barque of Dante.jpg - PD
• File:Ethiopic Prologue Apocalypse of Peter.jpg - PD
• File:Rainer fragment Apocalypse Peter 1 and 4 color.png and File:Rainer fragment Apocalypse Peter 2 and 3 color.png - PD

All images are appropriate and captioned. They have alt-text and are formatted correclty. Support on image review. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 02:47, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Source review by IntentionallyDense

I will be doing the source review for this article. I usually do this by filling out a table as I go. I will ping the nominator when I'm done but anyone is welcome to make comments as I work. IntentionallyDense (talk) 18:01, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• I'm going to take a bit of a break with this source review till the IA is back online since quite a few of the sources appear to be accessible through the archive. If this is a problem or if the IA doesn't come back online in a timely manner I can continue to just download pdfs of the books but that is very time-consuming. IntentionallyDense (talk) 22:08, 13 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Tesla and unions

Nominator(s): ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 14:52, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about unionization efforts at Tesla in different countries and Tesla's relation to trade unions more broadly. A lot of attention is brought to Elon Musk's commentary, but this Wikipedia article authoritatively brings attention to older campaigns and countries in order to WP:GLOBALIZE coverage. It is a GA and has continued to be expanded since. This is my first WP:FAC so I am appreciative of any assistance/guidance along the way. ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 14:52, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Image review - pass

Hello Shushugah and welcome to FAC. I'll do the image review. The article contains the following images:

• https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki//File:IG_Metall_brochures_for_Tesla_employees.jpg
• https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki//File:Tesla_IG_Metall_building.jpg

They are own works published under the Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 4.0 International. They are relevant and placed at appropriate locations. Both images are from Germany. Since Tesla is an American company, it would be good to have America also represented image-wise. The images lack alt-texts, see MOS:ALT. The captions are fine. Phlsph7 (talk) 07:48, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

📸 Done! I agree more photos would be nice. I have contacted United Auto Workers and IndustriALL Global Union to WP:DONATE some photos because there are nice ones that show diversity and breadth of Tesla workers movement. ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 15:53, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for adding the alt text. It would be great if it works out with the photos from the unions. If not, alternatives would be to use a picture of a Tesla factory where workers tried to unionize, like Gigafactory New York, or to have a multiple image of the logos of the different unions that made attempts. The article is relatively short so we don't need many images. Phlsph7 (talk) 07:37, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Phlsph7 using logos of unions would violate WP:NFCC rationale. I do not think the differing logos add contextual understanding to the differences between the unions, their efforts. The logo usages would need to be minimal, and this article is akin to a list of different union efforts (me thinks). I did also consider whether creating a geographic map with different union logos would be possible, but I believe that would be improper WP:Derivative work. Generally I think the File:IG Metall brochures for Tesla employees.jpg is the best image for the moment, being prominent in both English/German and representing the largest/most active union campaign. ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 11:20, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What about adding an image of Gigafactory New York (like https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki//File:Tesla_sign_2.jpg) to the subsection "Giga New York"? Phlsph7 (talk) 07:34, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I added it with captions and accessibility text. I note in Giga New York image caption, this is months before first union effort there. I opted to leave Fremont without a photo as the Tesla Fremont Factory and NUMMMI have numerous photos, and immediately above it I added a dynamic photo from 2023 United Auto Workers strike using File:United Auto Workers Strike 2023.jpg which plays an important role in overall enthusiasm for UAW union revitalization at non-union automobile manufacturers. Images are CC-BY-SA 4.0 and PD respectively. ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 18:10, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for including the images, they help add variety. I think it would it be better to move the image of the 2023 strike to the last paragraph of the section "Fremont Factory", where it is discussed. Otherwise, looks fine. Phlsph7 (talk) 08:45, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Phlsph7 ✅ Done! ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 14:04, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That solves the remaining problem. I moved the image a little down so that it is closer to the paragraph discussing the strike but feel free to revert if you prefer the original placement. Phlsph7 (talk) 08:08, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Femke

Lovely article. My initial comments:

• Do we have any information about China? With 20,000 Tesla workers, it would be interesting to know if they are part of the All-China Federation of Trade Unions.

  Does not seem like it. Formally speaking, every mid-sized company in China should have representation on ACFTU, but in practice this does not always happen The PwC report summarizes inconsistent enforcement. Walmart did not get a union until 2006, despite being in the country since 1990s. I have asked 2 China Labor scholars, who both indicated it is unlike that Tesla has a union at this stage and they're not aware of any such efforts.

Further more, I checked the both the US-based China Labor Watch and the Hong Kong based China Labour Bulletin for any related news about Tesla. There are several articles about employee dissatisfaction at Tesla, but nothing about collective action (strikes -- which are formally illegal anyways in China) or worker representation. I will contact CLB and CLW for any hints to the contrary as well, but as far as I can tell to best of my research, no there is not. I have written Volkswagen_and_unions#China and Apple Inc. and unions#China where there was more to write/say. I am also keeping an eye, if anything changes/appears in terms of sourcing from the Netherlands. This paragraph was rightfully so removed. ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 22:59, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Do we know why the New York case was withdrawn?

  No idea. I cannot find any further mention or context. I can remove it if it is WP:UNDUE. The union effort (and its fizzling) are notable, but withdrawn NLRB complaints are quite common. ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk)

• This article about the strikes in Sweden talks about Tesla's intimidation tactics. Should that be included?

  Done ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk)

• In the description of Sweden, you give the reader some background (such as sympathy strikes being legal in the country). I think the article would benefit with the same amount of background in the US and Germany.

  Excellent suggestion. I have added backgrounds for Germany and USA. I aimed to avoid WP:SYNTH or getting overly WP:Technical. I hope I struck a decent balance. Will re-read it a few times. ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk)

  Looks better. I think mentioning the detail of "codified in the Works Constitution Act" is unnecessary. Do we need to use jargon like "protected concerted activity", or can that jargon be hidden in a wikilink? It seems like you forgot to add a source to describe the US situation? The LAT source doesn't go into the details of the general situation with unions in the US. —Femke 🐦 (talk) 18:43, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  I think it's now gone too much in the opposite direction (too much background for the US). Can you limit it to one paragraph? The first paragraph seems a bit too detailed in particular. I'm pretty sure the main template (labor unions in the US), should not be in the middle of the section. I think it's best to delete it, but you can also change it into a further at the top of the paragraph. —Femke 🐦 (talk) 07:29, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Like, how is it possible that with 400,000 dollars, no union is formed? Do you need a certain percentage of the workers to vote in favour? Are there other barriers?

  I cannot explain (with available sourcing) whether $400,000 is a lot or not (my personal feeling is it not) but I added a contrast to it with the $40 million UAW announced in 2023 for 13 non-union workplaces over 2 years. That won't all go to Tesla, but it's a marked increase and change in UAW organizing philosophy (Shawn Fain makes that very clear). ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk)

  • What is a Works Council in Germany?

  Explained in the background added for Germany. (Note: while I am a central works council and works council chair myself and also a member of IG Metall, I exclusively rely on what sourcing explain about them, do share if the prose/clarity can be further improved. The distinction between works council/union and works agreement/collective agreement are key imho to understanding Tesla dispute and structural tensions. ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk)

  • Are non-disclosure agreements legal in Germany for work conditions?

  Basically no...but I cannot easily find sourcing for that, and more importantly what legal consequences that has. Depends on very particular/archaic court rulings. What's clear in any case is culture of fear/intimidation, and overall pattern of Tesla willing to bend the law. ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk)

• Prose quabbles:
  • In October 2017, Tesla fired Richard Ortiz who was organizing (alongside Moran, one of the union organizers), which the NLRB later ruled to be illegal retaliation. --> do we need the parenthesis here. Not quite clear if both were fired.

  I removed paragraphed quote, Moran was not fired as far as I can tell. His experience was very much part of NLRB's 2021 ruling about unfair labor practices. ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk)

  • and discussing with workers their opinion on unions --> this text is not quite clear.

  Expanded, basically Captive audience meetings where employer grills workers about their views of unions and discourages unionization. Which previously had legally ambiguous status, but was cemented as illegal by current NLRB general counsel ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk)

  • I'm not sure I follow the connection between the two sentences here: " Electric vehicle production requires 30 percent fewer workers than traditional combustion-engine vehicles. As a result, a non-unionized Tesla weakens IG Metall's bargaining power in the overall automotive sector in Germany due to fewer union members and a higher labor supply."

  Expanded in the background explanation. ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk)

  • In January 2023, IG Metall called for an investigation after stating that workers had called the organization to report that they were being made to work longer hours, with less time between shifts. --> I think we can be closer to WP:Wikivoice here for conciseness (called for an investigation after workers had called).

  Done ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk)

  • The Berlin-Brandenburg State Labor Court [de] overruled the lower court, keeping the original Works Council election date. --> The text is not saying what the lower court decided —Femke 🐦 (talk) 18:21, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Done. Thank you for my first FAC prose review! ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk)

  • I dislike the new first sentence, with the addition of "(half in the United States)". You're trying too put too much in, making readability worse. Try to be more conservative with parentheses too, they can impede flow. —Femke 🐦 (talk) 19:43, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    @Femke I've slimmed it down by half. A good background should provide necessary context to understand the Tesla union specific challenges which are different in each country. In the case of US me thinks it is about challenges of unsuccessful unionization, renewed momentum of UAW organising non-union shops in 2023 which is further contextualized in the body. I have slimmed usage of parentheses as well and rewritten them to flow with sentence structure. ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 21:03, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Formatting & sourcing squibbles:
  • I've removed some fullstops per MOS:PERIOD.
  • Make sure you use the right parameters in your cite news/web. A newspaper should be in italics. An organisation (like the Finnish Transport Workers' Union or National Labor Relations Board should not be italics. Typically, if the Wikipedia article about something is in italics, that's how it needs to be formatted. You can change the formatting by moving it from work to publisher.
• The union dues are not exactly 1%, but typically 1%. —Femke 🐦 (talk) 16:44, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Thank you and addressed all of the above squibbles! It appears both website/work= parameters italicize, while publisher= does not. It does not feel very semantic, but I have formatted all of them accordingly. Medium.com, SEC, NLRB and Finnish Transport Workers' Union were the 4 instances where I kept Template:Cite web instead of Template:Cite newsso I formatted them accordingly along with publisher parameter. I also removed language=en-* which is a default. ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 18:05, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• In terms of consistent source formatting:
  • Be consistent in omitting ISSNs (or including them all)
  • Source 7 doesn't have an archive yet.
  • Use pp. for source 15. —Femke 🐦 (talk) 18:49, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Archives added everywhere including external links, ISSN added for NYTimes, pluralized pages used. I have rephrases sentences where parenthesis was impeding, and kept them where they did not impede. I have expanded a larger section about US background of labor. The sources are high quality, but it's still a challenge to summarize them in a meaningful and succinct manner. Will get some rest myself and re-read them for clarity.

Support. With Mike's comments addressed, I'm happy to support. I would still remove at least one of the Tweets from Musk as it's given undue attention to this framing. Instead, incorporate it into the text? —Femke 🐦 (talk) 16:05, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Coordinator note

This has been open for more than three weeks and has yet to pick up a support. Unless it attracts considerable movement towards a consensus to promote over the next three or four days I am afraid that it is liable to be archived. Gog the Mild (talk) 11:45, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Greetings @Gog the Mild, would a time extension be possible as this is my first FAC and I've only had the chance to receive and respond to generous feedback from Femke in the past 4 days. As you can see above, we have been collaborating extensively since. My hope is that some more editors will opine now that the ice has been broken. Kind regards ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 21:12, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If a further review or two are started, then I and my fellow coordinators will certainly consider extending the time scale, we have no wish to close any nomination down prematurely. But do note the "if". Regards. Gog the Mild (talk) 09:55, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Gog the Mild this is moving along. There are currently 3 supports and an image pass. One thing I was wondering about is source review. I've seen several source reviews, where people mainly comment on the formatting of source review, rather than in-depth review of text verification/source integrity. In my opinion, Mike Christie generously and thoroughly reviewed the content of the sourcing, and there have been numerous discussions back and forth with all the reviewers either about presence/absence of certain sources. Do I need to explicitly solicit a source review, in addition other reviews? ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 13:41, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Mike, could you confirm or otherwise as to whether you consider your review to include a source review and/or a first-timer's source to text spot check and/or a plagiarism check? Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 12:09, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I did ask about the use of some of the sourcing, but did not do a full review of all the sources as I would for a FAC source review, nor did I look at the formatting of the sources. I did a spotcheck at the GAN, but of course that doesn't count as the spotcheck for a first FAC. I have more confidence about the sources than I would have for an article I hadn't reviewed, but I think it would be best to have someone else do a normal source review and spotcheck. If nobody gets to it by the end of the week I can probably do it -- I'm travelling from Wednesday through Sunday but would probably have time next Monday. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 13:42, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Mike Christie

Noting that I was the GA reviewer for this.

• The first paragraph of the "United States" section is repeated as the second paragraph of the lead. There's occasionally call for repeating sentences from the body exactly in the lead, but a whole paragraph is too much, particularly when only a handful of sentences separate the first occurrence from the second. I would compress and rephrase this (and there's no need for the citations in the lead).

  Done ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk)

• "Union busting is common": I think we should use more neutral language -- "union busting" brings to my mind some of the bloody and brutal violence from the US's history, and our own article on it says it's the term used by the workers, not the corporations. Perhaps "US corporations often oppose unions, sometimes using methods outlawed by the NLRA, but there are no criminal consequences if they are found to have done so." Assuming you can source something like that?

  Done. I switched to civil enforcement (ability to impose fines), since that is what existing and newly added EPI articles emphasis, which is unique compared to other federal agencies. ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk)

  The text used to say there are no criminal penalties, and now it says there are no civil penalties -- is that correct? And I think "in the US" is necessary after "is common". I know we're in a section about the US but as written the statement seems more general than that. And can we make it "Opposition to unions" rather than "Union oppositions", which could be read as unions opposing something? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:16, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  I initially read enforcement to be criminal in other source, since it is true NLRB has no criminal enforcement capability as well. Some federal agencies do, like the Environmental Protection Agency, but to lack even civil enforcement is quite unique. The EPI source laments how NLRB is one of the weakest federal agencies period. Even the adjacent Occupational Safety and Health Administration has ability to impose fines. So emphasizing even the weaker enforcement shows how little enforcement power NLRB has. Out of the scope here, but when a company does not comply with NLRB order, they need to seek enforcement from another court or agency with criminal enforcement capability, e.g US Marshals. See example here. I will change to opposition to unions in the United States. ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk)

• Per WP:PULLQUOTE, you should not repeat the tweet from Musk in a quote box.

  I retain the full tweet in a quote box, but removed it from the body and managed to condense as a result, including removing parenthesis. ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk)

• "Tesla appealed to the United States Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit, which affirmed the original NLRB order, in 2023": I think that last comma needs to go -- if I understand correctly the appeal was in 2021 and the affirmed decision was in 2023.

  Your understanding is correct. ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk)

• "UAW president Ray Curry responded that if Tesla was serious about supporting organizing, Tesla would acknowledge it broke the law": can we say what Curry is referring to?

  Added Ortiz and unlawful tweet, which is mentioned earlier so brevity should be ok. ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk)

• "Later, in June 2022": "later" is redundant since the date is given and it's later than the previous date.

  Done ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk)

• "The new UAW president Shawn Fain attributes": needs "as of" or "in <date>" and past tense.

  Done ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk)

• "attributes past unionizing failures due to".

  Changed to attributed previous unionizing failures to ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk)

• "alleging that Tesla illegally surveilled and fired 6 workers in retaliation": this says the illegal surveillance was only of the six workers they fired; is that the case? And MOS:NUMERAL recommends words rather than numerals for numbers under ten.

  Changed to illegally surveilled workers and fired six in retaliation ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk)

• "employees who participated with Workers United": what does "participated" mean here?

  Changed to 18 employees involved with the Workers United campaign ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk)

• "and captive audience meetings where the employer discuss with employees their opinions on unions and persuade them against it": the last few words of this are just a definition for readers who don't know the term. I think this might be better as a footnote.

  I simply deleted everything past captive audience meetings. ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk)

• In the discussion of Grohmann Engineering, was Herzig saying that the salaries went down by 25‒30% under Tesla's management, or that they were already that low under Grohmann?

  Source does not specify. My personal hunch is a bit of Grohmann being below the pay-bands and also with renewed annual IG Metall bargaining raises (5-10% each year) Tesla Automation would have fell behind regardless. We cannot speculate why, but only present relevant info, that the pay disparity was there, whether as inherited or newly introduced. Would not change anything ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk)

  I had a look at the source; I think it should be clearer to the reader that Herzig's statement is only three months after the acquisition since that makes it unlikely that the whole gap was caused by Tesla falling behind -- there hadn't been time to miss more than at most one collective bargaining raise. Can we add "In April" to that sentence? It would be good to find a way to introduce the "5-10% each year" that you mention. Can you sources that, for this time period? I assume that "matched employee salaries with the regional Metal Industry collective agreements" means that the salary increases were expected to continue year-to-year? If so, that would be a reason to quote the expected increases. And I've just noticed the two mentions of "Metal Industry"; should this be "IG Metall"? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:30, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  I can clarify that this is in April and shortly after the acquisition so not an effect of Tesla directly so much. The analysis re IG Metall is way too much synthesis and complex. These sectoral agreements in the Electronics and Metal Industry differ state to state, with various exceptions/expansion/deviation clauses, and the salary increases are assuming a certain pay-bracket that each employee matches in. This is way too much original research to do, without having sufficient analysis of Grohmann employee salaries. My assumption would be they are referring to the Entgeltrahmentarifvertrag (Wage Framework Agreement) that is common in IG Metall. In case you are curious, this salary estimator in English can give you a feel, for select jobs in the tech sector. Re Metal industry, no it refers to the defined sector that both IG Metall and the employer association Gesammtmetal sign collective agreements for, as opposed to say textile workers which IG Metall also represents, or individual company agreements like Volkswagen which are too powerful to be part of the Metal Industry. I can try expand/clarify this, since it is confusing. ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk)

  I think it's fine as is if you just remove the initial capitals from "Metal and Electronics Industry"; the caps make it look like we're talking about a specific organization. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:18, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• "Employees expressed concern after former CEO Klaus Grohmann was ousted and business contracts with clients were cancelled": why is this relevant to this article? It's not clear what they were expressing concern about. Did these actions imply anti-union attitudes in some way?

  Removed, it's speculative and employee fear/dissatisfaction is common after any restructuring. ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk)

• "seven non-union employees of Giga Berlin initiated the works council process": does this mean "started organizing a works council for the factory"?

  I welcome feedback on improving vernacular clarity. Here, initiate has special legal meaning and title. It is the precursor to forming an electoral board (works council), which is precursor to running actual election. Similar to Wikipedia elections in some ways. The German phrase is Initiator eines Betriebsrats and I've rephrased it as initiated the legal process to form a works council which is more wordy but maybe more clear.

• The Giga Berlin material feels a bit out of sequence. We don't find out Tesla is hiring 12,000 new employees until after we've mentioned "the first 1,800 hires". I realize you say "new" Gigafactory, but perhaps we could move the statement about the 12,000 hires to the first paragraph?

  Rephrased chronologically. I am much happier with An employee is eligible to run as a works council candidate if they have at least six-months tenure. Tesla eventually planned to hire 12,000 employees in total. In the first six months, Tesla hired 1,800 employees, mostly middle–management personnel. IG Metall expressed concern about the future works council being dominated by management, because only those with six-months tenure would be eligible to run. Also switch to MOS:NUMERAL ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk)

  I think that's much improved, but now I'm curious as to why it's relevant that the next works council election might be in two years instead of four -- why does the reader care about this? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:32, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  If management dominates the works council because they are the only eligible ones, then the possibility of an election happening sooner is relevant to workers having another chance. Given that the actual works council election did indeed happen 2 years later and is mentioned in lawsuit (for other reasons too of depriving candidates time) it can be removed here to reduce undue emphasis. So will move it to next section (see subsequent discussion). ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 08:30, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• "employees voted their first works council": should be "elected", surely?

  Done ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk)

• "with fewer rest-time between shifts": "less", not "fewer", or else "fewer breaks"; "fewer" is only used for things that can be enumerated, not for things with different sizes or durations.

  Done and emphasized rephrase with less resting time ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk)

• "Strikes are incredibly rare": not encyclopedic tone; suggest just "very rare".

  Done, though I think could have been kept here given it's Sweden. ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk)

• "At some point, unidentified individuals suspected to be strikebreakers arrived at Tesla service centers, prompting concerns about their impact on the labor dispute." This is a bit vague -- do we know what actually happened?

  Rephrased to Strikebreakers arrived at Tesla service centers, prompting concerns about their impact on the labor dispute. Their exact identity is unknown, but reused existing source to confirm strikebreakers and trimmed down language using WEASELWORDS of unknown etc.. The negative impact of strike breakers on strike is the key point. ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk)

• "and some strikers were contacted by Tesla after Tesla found photos uploaded by the strikers' families, contributing to a climate of fear of reprisal": again, "contacted" is vague -- it could be anything from "We're watching you, strikers" to "Merry Christmas"; I assume it felt like surveillance to the strikers but we should be as specific as we can be.

  Photos was incorrect sourcing. Specifically had chilling effect on non-union members from participating. I can attribute quote as well. According to union leader Gabriel Kuhn, individual strikers were contacted by Tesla after company found social media posts by the strikers' families, which had a chilling effect on non-union members in particular.

• "only a third of the 130 Tesla mechanics in Sweden had joined the strike": I assume this refers to the strike mentioned in the previous sentence; if so can we make this "joined this strike" to be clear?

  Moved this higher to the top, and also expand that about half of them were union members. I refrain from calling it a single strike, since none of the sources do, but it's a continuous period and I tie them closer together in paragraph.

-- Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 00:31, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Nice to see you again Mike, and thank you for your in-depth reviews both times round! ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 02:39, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you! Have struck most of the above, and left a couple of replies. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:35, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Responded to all of them now! ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 09:24, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

One minor point left. I will read through the article again, probably later today. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:18, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Mike Christie Done! Guess I will need to write Metal and Electronics Industry article right? For consistency all wiki links ought to be blue or red (WP:HUMOR). Looking forward to your final review and appreciative of all the time you, Femke and Phlsph7 put in.~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 11:46, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Second read-through

• "There were three unsuccessful unionization efforts in Fremont Factory and Gigafactory New York": I was going to suggest that we give the year range for these three in the lead, but when I look down at the body I only see two that are in the past: the fall 2016 campaign at Fremont, and the 2018 drive at Giga NY. The third seems to be the the early 2023 campaign implying that that's in the past, but the subsection on Giga doesn't give the results. Presumably that's still underway? In which case I don't think it should be past tense; it seems from the body that there are active campaigns at both Fremont and Giga, and only two past campaigns that have concluded (with failure). Or have I missed one?

  😝 I suppose the two phrasings none were succesfull and were unsuccesfull are not equivalent tautologies. I rephrased text with None of the unionization efforts in Fremont Factory and Gigafactory New York were succesfull which can ambiguously incorporate campaigns regardless of whether they fizzled/failed or not.

~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk)

OK -- I think the language you now have works, given that as you say it probably won't quickly become clear whether the most recent campaign can be said to have failed or ceased. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:21, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• "Tesla poses a structural challenge to IG Metall in the automotive sector, because electric vehicle production requires 30 percent fewer workers than traditional combustion-engine vehicles. As a result, the electrification of vehicles and a non-unionized Tesla weakens IG Metall's bargaining power in the overall automotive sector in Germany due to overall shrinking union membership base and lower union density, resulting in reduced bargaining leverage." The source cites electric vehicle production in general, not just by Tesla, as reducing the "labor density", and I don't understand the point it makes. Surely IG Metall's influence depends on percentage of unionization, not the absolute number of members? Wouldn't IG Metall rather have 90% unionization of half-a-million workers generating the same revenue for their employees than 50% of a million workers? Wouldn't they get more leverage in the former case? That's the point of "Every plant that opens that's not unionized hurts [IG Metall's] power." I see the source says "It's especially crucial that IG Metall preserve all the sway it can at a time when carmakers are pivoting to EV production, which, Wheaton said, requires roughly 30% fewer workers than traditional auto manufacturing" so you're certainly following the source, but why does that matter?

  🤓 You are asking tough but good questions here. How to phrase this in a meaningful way in the article remains a challenge it seems. In short address by removing this misleading/reductive line , resulting in reduced bargaining leverage. I do not wish to reduce the challenges to any one factor when it is least seven different factors as shown above. Ultimately reduced membership/lower union density are two most important ones. ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk)

Thanks for the detailed thoughts; the union dues point is a very good one that I hadn't thought of. I think you're right that removing "resulting in reduced bargaining leverage" is a good idea -- it's still in the article at the moment but it sounds like you intended to remove it? I would also remove "As a result", since it's already clear to the reader that that sentence follows naturally from the previous one. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:26, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Mike Christie replaced with shorter sentence (removing also a second overall) of The electrification of vehicles and a non-unionized Tesla weakens IG Metall's bargaining power in the overall automotive sector in Germany due to shrinking union membership and lower union density. ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 13:21, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• "crediting the threat of strikes and internal pressure to bolster the signed works agreements": is "bolster" the right word here? It means "reinforce", but I think what is meant is that the threats and pressure helped get the signature; once the agreements were signed no bolstering was needed. How about "crediting the threat of strikes and internal pressure as having helped influence Tesla to sign the works agreements"? Although I'm also not clear what "internal pressure" means beyond "threat of strikes"; looking at the source no other pressure seems to be mentioned.

  ✅ Agreed. I rephrased as IG Metall acknowledged that there were "good negotiation results" and credited the threat of strikes with pressuring Tesla to sign the works agreements. which also has same grammar tense throughout ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk)

• "The initial headcount of 1,800 employees surpassed more than two fold since the first works council election": assuming I understand the rule correctly, suggest rephrasing as "The initial headcount of 1,800 employees doubled quickly enough to trigger a rule requiring another works council election two years after the first election, rather than after the usual four years".

  ✅ Much clearer. I finalized with Giga Berlin's initial workforce of 1,800 employees doubled quickly enough to trigger a rule requiring another works council election two years after the first one, instead of the usual four years.~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk)

• "234 candidates from nine lists ran": per MOS:NUMNOTES we should avoid starting sentences with a figure.

  ✅ Combined sentences for On March 20, the election concluded with 234 candidates from nine lists.

• "Michaela Schmitz, the incumbent works council chair": needs an "as of" date. And I take it from this paragraph that Schmitz was the chair from the 2022 election onwards? If so I'd change the description of her from "incumbent" to something like "who had been elected as works council chair in 2022". Then I don't think we need "incumbent" at all because we mention her election on April 4 after that.

  ✅ I changed it to Schmitz, the current works council chair. It is most likely she was the chair from day one of the works council in 2022, but the sources don't verify that. The chair of the works council is customarily one person, but it can rotate either by vote, or when someone steps down, e.g Daniela Cavallo replacing Berthold Huber in middle of a term. ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk)

• We have "as of May 2024" for the Swedish strike; is it still ongoing? If the point is that May is when it became the longest in Sweden for 80 years, then I would suggest making it "In May 2024, the ongoing strike became the longest ..."

  ✅ Removed dated claim. Not exactly clear nor important when exactly it became the longest strike within 80 years. I have removed the "as of" claims, and replaced it with a more recent update, including a delegation that visited the strike in September. ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk)

• "prompting concerns about their impact on the labor dispute": suggest "prompting concerns among the strikers about their impact on the labor dispute".

  ✅ Done ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk)

• turningpointmag.org has an editorial board, and I don't see any reason to distrust its factual reporting, but I see it's used to support "which had a chilling effect on non-union members in particular". The source has "This created a climate of fear that few non-union members were willing to bear". Turning Point says in its about page that it supports radical change, so it's a leftist source. I don't see how they could know about the climate of fear among non-union members without having spoken to some of them, and I suspect this is speculation on their part, since there's nothing in the article about having spoken to individual workers, union or otherwise. -- Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 13:41, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  I could imagine they'd speak with workers, given how historic and rare strikes are in Sweden. But I've rephrased with the following According to union leader Gabriel Kuhn, individual strikers were contacted by Tesla after the company found social media posts made by the strikers' families, which also hampered non-union participation in the strike. ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk)

One point left above. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:33, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've struck the last point above. That takes care of everything with regard to the content. Looking through again, I see quite a few consecutive paragraphs starting with "In <date> ..." which isn't the most engaging prose style. I think this could be improved. I can take a crack at it, probably later today, if you like? Or if you want to, go ahead before I get there. I'm asking for a bit more variety in presentation of the sequence of events, to avoid WP:PROSELINE. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 13:29, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Mike Christie I will take a crack at it. Something like Modifiers "Later in X" as well as moving dates to end/middle of sentences to help with variation and removing dates when not absolutely essential altogether? ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 13:32, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, generally that sounds right. Sometimes joining short paragraphs can help, since you can then say things like "the following year", or "eighteen months later". I think this is my last complaint and I feel confident of supporting once we've addressed this. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 13:40, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Mike Christie Done! I removed two mentions of date, since they were not crucial/could be reasonably re-summarized as "three years later" or in other cases, moved it to the back/middle of paragraph. Curious for your feedback. Also found gnarly American/British inconsistency with successful and succesfull. My current text editor shows both as correct. ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 14:08, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support. I've done a copyedit which you're free to revert if you want to; I did put back in one instance of "In <date>" to avoid starting a sentence with a figure. Looks good; thanks for your patience with my nitpicks. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 15:35, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Misc. comments

No comment besides commending Shushugah for their excellent work in preparing this article for its inevitable FA status! QRep2020 (talk) 08:31, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Serial

Article looks in good overall shape. A few (good faith) suggestions.

This version of the article reviewed, no previous reviews read.

• Link "high injury rates" to Occupational injury, or perhaps Occupational safety and health.

  Done

• Likewise Labor dispute.

  Done

• Labor unions in the United States should probably be linked somewhere, possibly at "not represented by a union".

  Done

• Unionization.

  Done

• The sentence "In cases where there is..." could be clearer. I know unfair labor practice is linked, but a quick gloss (e.g., "In cases where there is illegal interference such as ULPs, the National Labor Relations Act—codifying worker rights—is unenforceable in civil law". (The "which" changes the meaning, disadvantageously).

  Replaced with Employer opposition to unions is common in the United States. In cases where there is illegal interference such as unfair labor practices, the National Labor Relations Act, which codifies worker rights—is not enforceable by civil law, such as penalties

• After Ortiz's firing was legally reversed, did Tesla obey? Did Ortiz or anyone comment on the NLRB decision?

  Existing source mentioned his statement, so included In a published response, Ortiz stated "I look forward to returning to work at Tesla and working with my co-workers to finish the job of forming a union"

  Solid attitude!

• "coziness with management" sounds a little... informal?

  I wrapped "coziness" in quotes to make it clear it's Fain's words.

• "In contrast in 2017, UAW spent $422,000" > "In contrast, in 2017 UAW had spent $422,000".

  Done

• Suggest the line about UAW winning 30% payrises should come before Fain's attribution remarks, as it keeps it chronologic, moving as it does on to the later organizing drive.

  Done

• Any ideas why the USW case was withdrawn in NY?

  No idea. I've checked carefully since a reviewer above asked same question

  Of course, no problem.

• Absorb the run on sentence: "Workers United is affiliated to Service Employees International Union, and had previously led the first successful unionization drive at Starbucks, also in Buffalo..." or something.

  Done. Also removed SEIU mention altogether, not crucial to understanding anything.

• Since Works Council is alsready a page, is Establishment (works council) a viable relink per WP:REDYES? What is the difference?

  I replaced red link with workplace. Any worker under a specific works council is part of its "works" or Betrieb. It's basically a German bargaining unit. It is usually is a workplace, but can be more complex/custom. It is unnecessarily complex, so no need for red link.

• "IG Metall pushed... IG Metall acknowledged..." remove duplication, perhaps with "IG Metall pushed for formal ratification, while acknowledging..."

  Done

• I'd also make the strike threat a new sentence: "It also credited..."

  Done

• "Nearly half of the employee" > "Nearly half the employees"

  Shouldn't the be removed instead of of? I adjusted elsewhere, Nearly half of the employee voted for the manager

  It's totally up to you. To my ears, they both sound fine, so it could be a Br/Eng thing.

• Curiosity, but would a Frankfurt (Oder) article say much more than the overarching Federal Labour Court does already?

  I kept the Template:ill but created redirects so that both the German article is clickable, but also an English link (Federal Labour Court) is available. Did same thing for the Berlin-Brandenburg State Labourt court too.

  The redirects are a good idea.

• What was the net effect of teh March 2024 election? On the one hand, a union seems to have won most seats, but on the other, an anti-unionist (and presumably mangement?) runs the Works Council? Suggest a sentence clarifying the result: at the moment a short sentence identifies IGM as having a majority, but then most of the remaining paragraph is about their opponent.

  We cannot stray into original research. How close are the non-union lists with each other? Unclear. We can only speculate with Schmitz being re-elected, that no other lists considered supporting IG Metall.

  Indeed!

• Link "banned from the company premises" to Lockout (industry).

  Done

• When Tesla contacted individual strikers, do we know what they said? Threats or bribes normally!

  Not done. Sources don't say, I checked.

• Did Tesla successfully recruit their Swedish lobbyist?

  No confirmation found. Can leave it or remove it, if undue.

  It's not doing any harm, and the information might become available in the future.

• There's an abundance of information in the Sweden section, but dates are sparse, and it covers almost a year. A date per paragraph should suffice to form a narrative.

  Done

• "as the strike continued more than 10 months": Well, it's now 11 months; suggest rephrasing this so as to avoid haveing to update it every month. Or maybe just removing it.

  It would be accurate regardless because it's about time between strike and past Ford visit, but I removed to avoid ambiguity.

If nothing else, the article succeeds in telling us everything we need to know about Mr Musk's concern for those who make him his profits. It's a good read, and maintains an absolute neutrality—an achievement in this kind of topic! Cheers, SerialNumber54129 15:28, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you Serial Number 54129 for kind words and review! I have addressed the above feedback and also took liberty to add some other grammar rewrites. ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 03:20, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No problem Shushugah, your changes are all well-thought out. I'm happy to support this article's promotion: it casts an important light on the underbelly of supposedly modern industrial relations. SerialNumber54129 11:48, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

By the way—and not part of the review—you might consider a page move to e.g. Tesla and trades unions, as just 'unions' could refer to other kinds of union. In any case, leave it until after promotion. SerialNumber54129 15:12, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Serial Number 54129 labor unions, labour unions, trade unions are all possible expanded variants of unions. I think creating redirects in case people search for it is pragmatic solution, while keeping the article target as succinct as possible. And given all the other similar articles, I'd prefer to keep it consistent if possible and have a wider RfC on that (Microsoft and unions, SAP and unions etc.. ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 18:52, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Apologies, I keep forgetting the AmEng usage; you're absolutely correct, of course, Tesla and labor unions would be best. SerialNumber54129 18:59, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Source review

The New York Times and The Guardian do not need an ISSN. What makes turningpointmag.org/ a high-quality reliable source? I kinda wonder if there are think tanks or research papers discussing the topic, rather than just news media and NLRB rulings. Spot-check wise, going by this version:

• 3 2016 in the source, not 2017.

  Jose Moran contacted UAW in fall of 2016, but the effort first went public in early 2017 and is when we can definitively say unionization efforts happened. Better to err on side of conservative interpretation of claim, than potentially introduce a made-up claim. Either way, I don't have a strong opinion.

• 10 OK
• 11 OK
• 14 Need a copy of this source.

  I can access it via Archive.is. If that doesn't work for you, I'll email you a PDF copy.

  It supports most of the content, but some of it relies on #13 which doesn't seem like a good source. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:47, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Mercury News source was an opinion-editorial was used to state verify claim that NUMMI was a unionized plant. I have removed it and replaced it with an NPR news article instead, which is in any case a stronger source. Elsewhere, the same Mercury source claimed $420,000 was raised, while Fox Business article has more exact figure of $422,000 so it was removed without replacement.

• 15 Need a copy of this source.

  I can access it via Archive.is. If that doesn't work for you, I'll email you a PDF copy.

  OK. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:47, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• 18 OK
• 24 Not sure what this supports?

  I removed it. It is a redundant (primary) source that supports fact Tesla appealed in 2021 and was used earlier in sentence. The NYT source summarizes the 2021 appeal and upholding in 2023, as well as the written response by Ortiz. I removed the NLRB source and confirm that rest of claims are verified by New York Times source #25.

• 25 Need a copy of this source.

  I can access it via Archive.is. If that doesn't work for you, I'll email you a PDF copy.

  OK, except that the source says co-workers not coworkers. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:47, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Good catch! I have returned it to exact quote, and for consistency, changed other instance of coworker to be co-worker as well.

• 27 That sum is only for the Tesla campaign and it's the sum UAW claims it spend on the campaign.

  Agreed. I wish there was a more direct Apples to Apples comparison to make. I do think the amounts of money here and broader expansion of UAW organizing are important, and contextualized with other quotes/claims with change UAW leadership. I will rephrase wording to be UAW subsequently launched organizing drives at 13 non-union auto manufacturers, including Tesla, with a combined organizing budget of US$40 million through 2026. In contrast, in 2017 UAW had spent $422,000 on Tesla alone

• 29 OK
• 31 Where does it speak about the first Starbucks unionization?

  Common Dreams source says Its initial Starbucks victory was in Buffalo roughly six miles from the Tesla factory (and I have separately confirmed this claim elsewhere, with other sourcing but did not see it as necessary to add here)

• 33 Need a copy of this source.

  I can access it via Archive.is. If that doesn't work for you, I'll email you a PDF copy.

  It doesn't say that the firings were of workers in the WU campaign. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:47, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  You are right. There's a much weaker claim in both sources. The charges are that they fired people for allegedly being involved in union activity (whatever that means) and more broadly Tesla discouraged unionization. Given that the retaliatory firing charges were not substantiated, I have tweaked accordingly. Also number of firings was expanded to 37.

• 38 Need a copy of this source.

  I can access it via Archive.is. If that doesn't work for you, I'll email you a PDF copy.

  Where does it speak of shrinking union membership? The text isn't clear if it's talking about an ongoing development or something that Tesla's presence would trigger. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:47, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  The source does not directly say shrinking union membership, so I will remove it from this claim. It is implied from shrinking union density and declining workforce in automotive industry, but I don't need to explicitly spell that conclusion. I had a longer discussion with Mike Christie above (see hat-noted discussion if curious) about the different factors. I added additional line about union membership IG Metall membership (2005–2021) has declined by 9%, while the automotive labor market has grown, especially in companies without regional collective agreements supported by this academic source on declining union membership. I have read through some other sources, which are interesting but do not immediately address the points here or [26]. ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 12:58, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• 40 I don't see "good negotiation results" in the source.

  The German phrase in quotes is „das sehr gute Verhandlungsergebnis“ which literally means "good negotiation results". The larger rough English translation of whole sentence is Although a genuine collective agreement remains the goal of IG Metall, the "good negotiation result" of the works council must be acknowledged.

  That phrase actually means "very good negotiation result". Quotes generally are literal. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:47, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Vielen Dank! I will defer to your native-language expertise. I have modified the quote and surrounding grammar accordingly. ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk)

• 52 OK
• 53 OK
• 54 "The company also contacted the strikers when they found strikers’ family members posting about the strike on social media" in the source is a bit too similar to the article.

  Rephrased already (see comment below)

• 59 OK
• 60 Need a copy of this source.
• 65 OK

Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 15:28, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk · contribs) for your source review! I am able to access the New York Times, Business Insider and USA Today sources you requested access directly via Archive.is, but if that does not work for you, I'd be happy to send you a PDF copy of all of the sources you requested and any other.

If and when there are any think tank or other institutional reports on Tesla unionization, I would be happy to attach them in the article. Regarding efforts mentioned in the article, but also possible efforts not mentioned, e.g on China or Netherlands. I have accessed a private, non-published report for example, claiming that Netherlands workers were covered by FNV Metaal (Dutch union) collective agreement, but I haven't found any published (offline nor online) reports confirming this, so it's not mentioned in the article since verification isn't possible. Of course, I may have missed valid sources; I have reached out to a number of academics, as well as union officials in relevant departments for any tips on reports, photos they're willing to donate etc.. and will continue to remain vigilant for future sources. The wide variety of languages these sources might exist in, is one hurdle.

Regarding turningpointmag.org, I do not think it is the highest quality source ever, but it has an editorial board and even if it did not, I would consider Gabriel Kuhn the author, to be a relevant WP:EXPERTSPS who provides unique perspective and specifics on union/non-union member participation within the IF Metall led strikes as a non-member himself. Still, I have weighted his claims in his voice, instead of wiki-voice. I have rephrased bit about families being contacted with According to union leader Gabriel Kuhn, Tesla contacted individual strikers after family members shared news of the strikes on social media, which discouraged non-union participation in the strike. ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 17:15, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Jo-Jo Eumerus I believe I have addressed all the open points. Let me know if you find any more issues. ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 07:39, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think #60 is the only thing still pending. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:15, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I am able to gift NYT links (do not open this unless you are @Jo-Jo Eumerus). I moved #60 NYT source to the sentence ahead, and switched the API source with existing Reuter source that actually verifies claim about electrician and other port workers. The edit change is visible here. Thank you for your time reviewing! ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 15:24, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Seen it, but it seems to say that the union only stopped unloading - and only when it's them who unloaded? Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:33, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Shushugah and Jo-Jo Eumerus: I've added a couple of RS that both support the claim of "loading and unloading"; format them as necessary. I don't understand what and only when it's them who unloaded? actually means, so am unable to help with that. Cheers, SerialNumber54129 20:36, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If I understand the question correctly, it’s whether a complete stoppage of unloading happened or whether there are non-union/non-striking workers who still continue? In the case of Tesla workers, this statistic is importantly but for secondary strikes it becomes borderline trivia either way. The wider impact has not been successful, in part because trains/truck deliveries of Tesla vehicles. In some cases (my hunch) it’s more about symbolic solidarity. The distinction between loading/unloading is not clear to me. The port strikes are directed at Tesla vehicles headed to the Swedish market. ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 22:21, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The source only mentioned unloading, that doesn't imply that loading was affected too. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 06:00, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

(watching) @Jo-Jo Eumerus: (@FAC coordinators: ) What? There are three sources, two of which explicitly reference loading as well as unloading. (Footnotes numbered 60 & 61 in this version.) SerialNumber54129 11:47, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

60 doesn't mention loading and 61 is paywalled. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 13:31, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Jo-Jo Eumerus: 60: Dockworkers are refusing to load or unload Teslas at this port and all others across the country; 61: For six weeks, dockworkers at Swedish ports have refused to load or unload the electric cars made by billionaire Elon Musk. Also see WP:OFFLINE and WP:PAYWALL. Cheers, SerialNumber54129 14:38, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

OFFLINE and PAYWALL are policies about non-online or you-have-to-pay-for-it sources being acceptable, they don't mandate that a spot-check should pass sources that the reviewer cannot see for themselves. In these cases, I ask for a quote, screenshot or emailed copy. But OK then, not sure why I didn't see it before. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 15:10, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Jo-Jo Eumerus: Well, one's policy; is policy primate, I ask? I hope quotes suffice, because the articles are on the Wayback Machine, and IA has gopt itself completely caned over the last couple of weeks with DDOS attacks. They're still not back online from the latest. They reckon it's down to Brazillian script kiddies, but my money's on some COINTELPRO-style operation by the black bag departments of Hachette and Penguin. SerialNumber54129 15:30, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

German atrocities committed against Soviet prisoners of war

Nominator(s): (t · c) buidhe 19:03, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about the second largest Nazi mass killing, also one of the least known. I'm not a fan of the title, but I think the article is now ready for FAC after going through GAN and GOCE, for which I thank Catlemur and Miniapolis (t · c) buidhe 19:03, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Drive-by comment from Joeyquism

There was a good point brought up on this article's talk page about its title. What I'm primarily concerned about is WP:NPOV with regards to the word "atrocities" - while anyone with a working conscience would, of course, label these acts as atrocities, I'm not sure if this is neutral phrasing. There's mention of using the term "war crimes" instead; perhaps this would be a better descriptor? If that term is incorrect due to sources saying otherwise/definitions imposed by authoritative bodies or simply just not to your taste (it would make the title longer and introduce another instance of the word "war"), let me know. joeyquism (talk) 03:11, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Buidhe: I might add that I should be able to commit to a full review soon, and I will likely start after my move in a couple of days (though moving efforts will ultimately take precedence). If I don't get anything down here within the next one-and-a-half to two weeks, you are welcome to ping me liberally. joeyquism (talk) 03:23, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your feedback. My main objection to the title is that the article's scope is more broad—it covers the totality of experiences of prisoners of war, which were not necessarily atrocities or war crimes. In a lot of cases, the sources don't specify whether something is a war crime, although they are clear that many violations of the Geneva conventions occurred. (t · c) buidhe 03:44, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This reasoning seems fair enough. I will not press on the title any further. joeyquism (talk) 04:53, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

UC

I will try to come back for a "proper" review, but two small points for now:

• As we only have the one map in the article, I worry that it gives the impression of representing the total scale of German advances into the USSR, when of course it shows only quite a small fraction of it. Two options, I think -- either add another one later on, to show advances up to Moscow/Stalingrad, or replace it with one that shows the whole campaign, perhaps phased by year.
• If we're going to use a German noun, like Blitzkrieg, as a native word in italics, we need to capitalise it. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 14:39, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The map was chosen to show the quick advances at the beginning of the camp which enabled the Germans to capture so many prisoners. I'm not attached to that map in particular, but I didn't see any others that made the speed of the advance as clear. I wonder if any confusion could be alleviated by explicitly pointing it out in the caption. Fixed the capitalization issue. (t · c) buidhe 22:38, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm imagining one with nice labelled lines, or coloured waves, showing the frontline at the end of each year, but I'm not sure if Commons has one of those. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 08:00, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

this map exists but I thought it was harder for readers to take in than the one I used. (t · c) buidhe 12:50, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, pros and cons to each. Two maps might be the way to go? I might have a look on Commons and see if I can suggest anything sensible. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 13:14, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Captured Red Army soldiers (in infobox): is this quite complete -- wouldn't some prisoners have come from e.g. NKVD formations or the naval infantry? Suggest "Captured Soviet troops".
  • Ok
• The Nazi leadership believed that war with its ideological enemy was inevitable: consider expanding this a little -- I know it's a long story, but it's somewhat germane to the point why the Nazis thought of the USSR as such an inevitable and hated enemy.
  • Clarified the reasons the source gives for this belief
• preventative killings: sounds a little euphemistic: is this the term used in the literature?
  • Yes, well, the source says "preemptive killings"
    • Even worse, perhaps! But the point is clear enough, and perhaps "murders intended to terrorise the population into compliance" is a little mealy-mouthed: what we've got here works fine. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 17:33, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• War aims included securing natural resources, including agricultural land to feed Germany, metals and mineral oil for German industry: cadence is better if you either lose the first comma or add one before the final and: at the moment, it's a little loose as to how each part flows together.
  • I shortened the sentence by removing the last clause
• The vast majority of German military manpower and materiel was devoted to the invasion, which was carried out as a war of extermination with complete disregard for the laws and customs of war.: changing tone a little, can I just put on record my approval of this kind of phrasing -- it would be easy to shy away from being so straightforward about it out of mistaken NPOV concerns, but you do an excellent job of being absolutely explicit about what we are talking about while keeping everything well within what can be supported from the evidence.
• Informed by Nazi racial theory and Germany's experience during World War I,: I understand the first bit, but what does Germany's experience in WWI have to do with the idea that Muslims are "better" than Ukrainians?
  • This factor was separate from Nazi racial theory (according to the source), which doesn't elaborate much but cites another highly reliable source that I can't check. During WWI the Germans recruited some nationalities into the war effort, but faced problems with "unreliability". (t · c) buidhe 13:46, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• by killing communist functionaries and Soviet Jews, it was expected that resistance would quickly collapse: the passive voice is tricky here ("by whom?"): suggest "they expected".
  • Done
• Soviet prisoners of war were held under tighter control, and had a higher death rate: as this is a comparative statement, I would make it an explicit comparison: "than those of other nations"; "than those of western European ethnicity"? I'd be interested to know what the Nazis made of e.g. African and Asian troops fighting for the western Allies.
  • Compared to those mentioned in the last couple of sentences : Soviet urbanites and ghettoised Jews. Made it more clear
• generally adhered to it with prisoners of other nationalities: perhaps not totally to the point here, but did this apply to e.g. black American soldiers, those believed to be gay, or Jews?
  • Violations of the Geneva Convention with regard to other nationalities besides Soviet and Italian were the exception. Even yugoslav Jewish soldiers were not mistreated. It's true that there were some homosexuality cases involving pows but it was rare and probably not violating the Geneva Convention.
    • That's ... good, I suppose? UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 20:42, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• there were no legal gray areas: consider ambiguities per MOS:CLICHE?
  • done
• Helmuth James Graf von Moltke was one of the few high-ranking officials: can we say what his position was?
  • As the article says he supported treating all prisoners according to the Geneva Convention, is there a way to make this more clear?
    • Sorry, I meant “position” as in his rank, job etc — we’ve said he was important, but can we be more specific? UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 19:13, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      • he was in the Abwehr (t · c) buidhe 20:12, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

        Just looking at his Wikipedia page -- was he really all that high ranking? His job seems to have been fairly ordinary: when I hear "high-ranking", I think senior government ministers, generals, heads of agencies and so on: was he anything close to that? UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 09:39, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

        Pohl says that "hardly anyone" (presumably on the German side) supported treating POWs according to the Geneva Convention. Revised (t · c) buidhe 13:41, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

        • As we've presented it, we've claimed to know that almost all people in Germany supported war crimes against Soviets. That's a big claim -- is that something Pohl a) alleges and b) could reasonably be able to prove? Otherwise, something like "Nazi officials", "figures within the regime", or similar might help. I don't think the point is wrong at all, but that makes it all the more important to be ironclad on the details. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 16:27, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

          @Buidhe: I think this is the last unresolved issue here? UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 11:45, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

          Sorry I missed this. The reason I wrote it the way I did originally was that I thought he was referring to officials with some influence on the actual policy, but technically there isn't explicit support for this in the text. After looking at the context I think it's clear that he is referring to views within the Wehrmacht, but it's unclear exactly which group of Wehrmacht personnel he is referring to. "The murder of Soviet prisoners of war was undoubtedly controversial within the Wehrmacht... Hardly anyone, however, advocated treatment of Soviet prisoners of war that was fully in line with international law; one of the few who did so was Helmut James Graf von Moltke." (t · c) buidhe 14:42, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

          Current phrasing is good, I think. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 15:15, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• the rapid encirclement actions that the German commanders expected in the blitzkrieg: you will know more about this than me, but I gather that military historians are increasingly sceptical of the idea that Blitzkrieg was a coherent doctrine, rather than a post-facto myth that conveniently explained the rather inadequate Allied response to the invasion of France.
  • I don't have any knowledge of this, actually, so I rewrote not to use the word blitzkrieg.

More to follow. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 08:47, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Mark Edele gets the microphone for practically all of the section on why Soviet soldiers surrendered. Does this represent WP:DUEWEIGHT -- are there other voices of equal/greater weight that could/should be brought in here?
  • None of the other books really address this topic.
• The Waffen part of Waffen-SS needs to be italicised (really, the whole thing should be in a lang template, but I'm not sure how well that plays with links plus regular italicisation).
  • When Oxford, cambridge, Taylor&Francis and Elsevier don't italicize, I think Wikipedia should follow the more common usage.
• Red Army soldiers overtaken by the German advance without being captured were ordered to present themselves to the Wehrmacht: we've usually avoided gratuitously Germanising perfectly normal terms, which I think is the right way to go (I think this reddit thread puts the case quite well), but this seems to be an exception: why not "German Army" (or "German armed forces" vel sim), as we have used elsewhere? If we are desperate to use a German word, we should italicise and use lang templates.
  • I've taken out all mentions of Wehrmacht in the article
• The number of Soviet soldiers captured fell dramatically after the Battle of Moscow in late 1941: is it worth being explicit that this was because the Germans started losing at this point?
  • Pohl doesn't make this connection, I searched through the relevant chapter in Hartmann and he doesn't either. I will check if it's in the Quinkert book.
• Why does Dulag get an explanation but stalag not? The latter also needs a capital letter.
  • Rewrote
• , when the Commissar Order was rescinded: I would rework this section a little, to initially explain what the Commissar Order was, then what happened under it, then what happened after it was rescinded. At the moment, we rely on the reader knowing or being able to infer what the order demanded.
  • Done
• Contradictory orders were issued for the execution of female combatants in the Soviet army, who defied German gender expectations, but the orders were not always followed: can we be a little clearer as to what some of these orders were -- presumably, as with the commissars, a spectrum between "kill them all" and "treat them with particular respect"?
  • Rewrite
• the OKW's Allgemeines Wehrmachtsamt.: see comment earlier about German terms -- if this one is really untranslatable, we should at least explain what it was in English.
• the Korücks,: likewise -- can we explain who these people were?
  • To be honest, I don't really understand. I may do more research, or it may be that the intricacies of the chain of command are not WP:DUE (given that they aren't even mentioned in most of the sources). Update: I decided take out these couple sentences. (t · c) buidhe 13:51, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• A figure of 200,000 to 250,000 deaths in transit is provided in Russian estimates: we imply here that other estimates are available, or that these might not be above suspicion -- can we expand on either side?
  • I only put it this way because both of the cited sources state explicitly that it is a "Russian estimate" (apparently from Rossija i SSSR ν vojnach XX veka. Statisticeskoe issledovanie. Red. G. F. Krivoseev. Moskva 2001)
• Make sure that date ranges, including in work titles, have endashes (I noticed Moore 2022).
  • Fixed
• "barbed-wire fences" should have a hyphen, as a compound modifier.
  • Done
• the encirclements of Vyazma and Bryansk: can we put an explicit date on this?
  • Done
• The vast majority of prisoners (ethnic Russians) : I think this would be more grammatical as "Ethnic Russians, the vast majority of the prisoners, were not..."
  • Done
• prisoners were released so they could volunteer for the Wehrmacht or the police: see my point earlier about the word Wehrmacht.
• About one-third became Hiwis: suggest explaining what Hiwis were.
  • Reworded
• Wehrmacht soldiers often conducted the executions: as above.
• a stereotypically-Jewish appearance: MOS:HYPHEN says not to use a hyphen when the compound modifier is formed by a regular -ly adverb.
  • done
• With Wehrmacht cooperation, Einsatzgruppen units: I think Einsatzgruppen may have to stay as untranslatable, but see earlier comments about Wehrmacht and lang templates.
  • As with Waffen-SS, the majority of scholarly English language sources don't italicize.
    • Very well, but we should then use lang templates (with |italic=no) to ensure that screen readers handle them correctly. Apologies if you've already done that. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 15:51, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• five to 25 percent escaped detection: MOS:NUM would like consistency.
  • Done
• Invalid soldiers were in particular danger when the front approached. invalid meaning "sick" is only usually a noun: suggest "disabled", "soldiers too sick to work", or similar.
  • Done
• if their responses were unsatisfactory, they were discharged from prisoner-of-war status: I think we should be a little more explicit as to what this means -- "discharged" often means "released", especially in a military context.
  • Done
• Suggest knocking the "were" out of the "killed at Mauthausen" link to break the sea of blue.
  • Done
• Hitler opposed recruiting Soviet collaborators for military and police functions, blaming non-German recruits for defeat in World War I.: would this point be useful further up to explain what we meant about Germany's WWI experience causing animosity to certain eastern European ethnicities?
  • I could move it up but then it wouldn't explain in this section why Hitler opposed their recruitment, but his underlings disagreed.
• some having living conditions similar to Wehrmacht soldiers: another beat on the same drum, I'm afraid.
• 14 in the Turkestan Legion, nine in the Armenian Legion, eight each in the Azerbaijani and Georgian Legions, and seven in the North Caucasian and Idel-Ural Legions.: MOS:FIGURES again.
  • Fixed
• Employers paid RM0.54 per day per man This and similar values a little later -- it seems intuitive that these are small amounts, but can we contextualise them vs. the price of something worth buying, or the wages of someone like a soldier?
  • Add currency conversion, although I'm not sure how meaningful it is.
• the Channel Islands, where many died: my impression is that Jersey, at least, was a fairly 'tame' (by Nazi standards!) place to be, both for the soldiers and for the prisoners, at least until Germany started losing badly and food became more scarce. Is the conflation of Norway and the CI justified here?
  • Maybe not for Soviet POWs because the cited source says "They also suffered the same privations and treatment as other Soviet prisoners". And according to another source hundreds or thousands of Soviet citizens died there.
    • I stand enlightened. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 15:51, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Unlike the Holocaust, where killings occurred far from Germany's borders : we need a mostly in here -- Dachau and Ravensbrück, for example, were certainly in Germany.
  • The vast, vast majority of Jewish holocaust victims were killed east of Germany's 1937 borders. None of the death camps, ghettos, or mass execution sites were located in Germany's prewar territory. Unless they were in the army, a German could well have seen their Jewish neighbors rounded up but would not have witnessed anyone being killed, except perhaps at the very end of the war. Dachau and Ravensbrück, and other concentration camps (except Auschwitz and Majdanek which were located in Poland) were not used for mass executions of Jews.
    • No, but Jews died in Dachau and Ravensbrück, didn't they? I agree there's a difference of degree, but we still surely need something like "almost all", unless we mean to exclude someone who starved or was beaten to death there from the victims of the Holocaust. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 09:44, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      • What the cited source says is: "After 1945, many Germans claimed that they had not known about the murder of Jews, which had happened far away... Soviet POWs were dying in huge numbers in camps inside Germany by 1941 – a fact that was widely known and was occurring before most of the Jews had been deported and killed"
        • I'm only going on what you have quoted here, but the word claimed is doing a lot of work there. I'm not an expert, but my understanding is that most Germans must at least have had a very strong inkling of what was happening to Jews (see e.g. here), even if they hadn't physically seen a death camp. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 15:51, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
          • We have an entire article on the subject, but I have rephrased the text. (t · c) buidhe 03:15, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• The caption on the Hess at Minsk photo has a lot of links on common terms that were linked much earlier -- and, I'm afraid, I must ask about "Wehrmacht" again...
  • It's often recommended to repeat links in captions
• About 500,000 prisoners had been freed by Allied armies by February 1945: is this just on the Eastern Front, or in the West as well?
  • Only the Red Army, clarified
• German Army scorched-earth tactics: I would cut Army, as the air force played its role too. One might even consider cutting German too -- didn't the Soviets carry out scorched earth tactics as they withdrew?
  • Source says German Army. I don't know if the Red Army used scorched earth tactics but the vast majority of war destruction seems to be attributed to the German occupiers.
• who fell into enemy hands or was encircled without capture: this seems rather harsh! Am I reading correctly that being surrounded made you a traitor if you didn't surrender?
  • While Moore states, "Servicemen who had been captured and escaped, or who had been encircled but not captured—something that may have applied to up to a million men in the first weeks of the conflict—had been dealt with under the Soviet criminal code as though they had committed high treason and were therefore subject to execution and the confiscation of their property." I was curious about this and tracked down the source he cited (Pavel Polian, ‘The Internment of Returning Soviet Prisoners-of-War after 1945’, in Bob Moore and Barbara Hately-Broad (eds), Prisoners of War, Prisoners of Peace (Oxford: Berg, 2005) p. 127.) Polian does not say that this class of people was considered universally traitors, only that they were screened after the war to find traitors. I rewrote the sentence based on Edele and Polian; it seems like in theory you were not a traitor if you surrendered due to the impossibility of continuing resistance, but in practice you would fall under suspicion.
    • That makes more sense: I suppose the (twisted) Soviet logic would have been that getting yourself encircled might show a less-than-stellar desire to fight and win: perhaps you only got into that situation because you weren't aggressive enough, or were hoping to be captured. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 09:44, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• classified all surrendering commanders and political officers culpable deserters : better as as culpable deserters, or culpable as deserters. If the former, could cut culpable -- you can't be a not-culpable deserter.
  • Done
• Trawniki men were typically sentenced : I would explain who these people were.
  • It's explained in the military collaboration section. Should I repeat it here?
    • I must admit that I missed it, so take from that what you will. It is quite a way up, even for more attentive readers. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 15:51, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• According to official statistics, "57.8 per cent were sent home, 19.1 per cent were remobilized into the army, 14.5 per cent were transferred to labour battalions of the People's Commissariat for Defence, 6.5 per cent were transferred to the NKVD 'for disposal', and 2.1 per cent were deployed in Soviet military offices abroad".: an odd place to quote -- this is just bare facts, so better as a paraphrase. It's minor, but the WP:NONFREE case here is not strong.
  • Rewrote
• Different figures appear in the book Dimensions of a Crime. Soviet Prisoners of War in World War II: better as a colon, not a full stop, between title and subtitle -- but why give the title at all, rather than the author, as we've normally done with scholars' opinions?
  • Non-notable authors, rephrased
• They were excluded from the Foundation Remembrance, Responsibility and Future fund: this could do with a bit of explanation -- it sounds from the article as though this was a Soviet thing.
  • Done
• others belonged to the NKVD, People's Militia, were from uniformed civilian services: not grammatical: "to the NKVD or People's Militia, were from..."
  • Done
• Christian Streit's landmark Keine Kameraden : landmark is a bit WP:PROMO, and I would translate the title for Anglophone readers.
  • Rewrote

That's a first pass -- my admiration continues. Clear and authoritative throughout: purely on prose, I found the "death toll" section slightly less sparkling than the rest, but that may be a reflection of the difficulty of conveying what is essentially a long list of (rather harrowing) statistics. As ever, my respect for taking on such a challenging and important topic and conveying it so well. I hope these comments are helpful, and please do take them as the beginning rather than the end of a conversation. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 20:42, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support -- apologies for a long and no doubt torturous review, but I hope it's been to the article's benefit. Once again, huge respect for doing an excellent job with such a challenging subject. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 15:17, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Commentary from fifelfoo on all of 1, 1c (inflation specific), all of 2, 3 (textual quotation), 4, including plagiarism samplings

I appear to be liable to assist, for various reasons of past personal reading. And in that matter, if people believe my past editing in historiography of state murders would bias me or cause the appearance of bias, please ask me to cease my contributions immediately? I haven't done one of these in a while, so this may take some time, and my standards may be out of alignment with current standards (I did check back on customs and practices last year). If I can have 4 days to get through the major headings? Fifelfoo (talk) 10:53, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• General query: Why skip MILHIST-A? Not enough review contributors? Fifelfoo (talk) 09:58, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

1a: reviewed: oppose

• I am aware that I'm reviewing a GA
• Now that is a lede sentence. That's a masterful lede sentence. It is also a masterful lede.
• "Among the criminal orders issued before the invasion was the execution of captured Soviet commissars." => "Among the criminal orders issued before the invasion was the order for the execution of captured Soviet commissars." Otherwise it appears that the executions happened before the war due to verb chaining issues across comparative verbal clauses.
• "military planners decided to breach it with the Soviet prisoners" => "with Soviet prisoners" the collective noun doesn't need an article
• "Soviet Jews, political commissars, and some officers, communists, intellectuals, Asians, and female combatants" => ", some officers," unnecessary "and" within a comma separated noun list.
  • Unsolicited advice, but the point has been missed here: the and is needed to clarify that the some applies to officers, communists etc, but that all Jews and commissars are included. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 10:36, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • That is correct. (t · c) buidhe 01:04, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Completely agree with decision to exclude historiography from lede: article isn't "Historiography of…". The implicit historiographical summary of "but far less studied" is an appropriate historical conclusion of interest to the general reader. Really well handled here. Historiography is often too danke for the general reader, but necessary in body. Picked the right lede point in complex terrain.
• "To increase the speed of conquest, the Germans" do note that I'm reading for stuff like this. The correct noun choices based on the historiographical arguments around "Ordinary men" are observed by readers like me, and I have read for these observations of "avoidance of Clean Wehrmacht" type myths. Correctly handled here, as a note, will observe if ever incorrectly handled (do not expect it to be.) I note that merely a paragraph later Nazi is used correctly to typify a view not universally held, compared to standard German myths of the East. This reinforces my belief that tonal choices of collective agent nouns will be correct.
• "World War I led to increased antisemitism" => "World War I had lead to increased antisemitism" consider? My en_AU_scholarly views of which English past tense to use may be atypical though. The point being that WWI didn't simply produce a result, but was an active process producing a result in the past.
• "and recognition of the need to secure food supplies" whose need? Unnamed noun. Suggest "recognition of Germany's need" as this dolchstosselegende myth isn't Nazi specific.
• "they were less effective than expected because of flight" whose flight? "because of civilian flight" missing noun. Alternately civilian and military flight if more representative of HQRS scholarly judgement? Scholars may have generalised all kinds of flight, regardless of STAVKA's hopes.
  • The source says : "Many managed to flee other large Soviet cities that were under German occupation" so I cannot explicitly say civilian if the source doesn't.
• "Although the mass deaths of prisoners in 1941 were controversial within the military, Abwehr officer Helmuth James Graf von Moltke was one of the few who favored treating Soviet prisoners according to the law." This is a bit of a mess. Complex multivalued expression with subtle nods to variations. "Although the virtue of mass deaths of prisoners…was controversial… [for purely instrumental reasons of policy?], Abwehr…according to law." I'm not sure what I'm meant to read here as a reader? Sure von Moltke might be admirable because he likes law of war, but what's the controversy about then?: Shoot them now or shoot them later?; Oh we don't want to starve slaves to death, we want to work them to death, work them in conditions of life unworthy of life, demonstratively punish them indefinitely, while your racial views are admirable they are of military detriment to defeating our enemy? Dangling an implicit controversy without explaining it in the sentence leads me unable to read von Moltke's legalism appropriately. Was he legalist in comparison to now/later policy views; was he legalist in comparison to military efficacy is death/ military efficacy is preservation of surrender as possible? This one is really troubling for me as I can't read it to an adequate conclusion of what kind of barbarism OKW/OKH policy level leaders were controverting over.
  • The source does not allow me to elaborate on Moltke's views, which would probably be WP:UNDUE because the article is not about Moltke.
• "Little planning was made for housing and feeding the millions of soldiers to be captured as part of the rapid encirclement actions that German generals were planning." I've read enough mass human death studies to understand what "little planning" indicates. The general reader may not have? "were planning, the absence of plans implied necessarily deficient ad hoc solutions regardless of intention."? I'm reading here for language, not for OR/HQRS representation obviously. The follow on sentence implies the hermeneutic gap: absence of planning results in deficient outcomes regardless of intention. (With the intentions I'd anticipate supplied below during implementation).
  • I'm not sure what you want me to add here. Some sources highlight the lack of planning and suggest that the mass death was driven by logistical factors rather than malice. Others imply the lack of planning is indicative of malice, or at best depraved, callous, and criminal disregard for human life. But there is one point on which they agree and that's what is encyclopedically included as an undisputed fact; my inclination is to WP:Let the reader decide on the rest.
• I love the section headings. I hate that I love the section headings (appropriate for the article). They are perfectly chosen, encyclopaedic, representative, NPOV.
• "In 1941, three or four Soviet soldiers were captured for each one killed in action;" comma unnecessary for clause, "In 1941 three or four Soviet…"
• "the ratio of prisoners was reduced later in the war" agents "reduce" ratios. Which agent decided to kill more prisoners? Passive voice here is an enemy to good writing in an agentic situation. "German forces reduced the number of captures later in the war." "Soviet operational and strategic art reduced the capacity for German forces to capture more POWs later in…". Do you see what I'm getting at here? Dangling an unspecified agent might be "safe" but it isn't "safe" for a history encyclopaedia article in an area of history where agents ordered people not to surrender or invited people out for a nice clean "partisan" hunt to be off the front lines?
  • Edele's argument isn't that more captured soldiers were killed—but that fewer defected and others were more inclined to put up a fight rather than surrender. (t · c) buidhe 14:08, 29 August 2024 (UTC) I have clarified this point (t · c) buidhe 02:10, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• "By mid-December 1941, 79 percent of prisoners (more than two million) had been captured". 79% of what period? All of the GPW? Of 1941? Of the period of rout and retreat to the turning point? And which prisoners? I know it is implied by the article title but it's a dangling absent noun. "in thirteen major cauldron battles."? 79% of prisoners to mid-December 1941 were captured in cauldron battles specifically?
• "military factors such as poor leadership, lack of arms and ammunition, and being completely overwhelmed by" "and [who] being completely". Soviet soldiers? Soviet commands?
  • I could add another couple "Soviet" modifiers here but that would be repetitive and I believe that the intended meaning is 100% clear from context.
• "The [] Error: [undefined] Error: {{Lang}}: no text (help): no text (help) " lmftfy. Why is there a de link against Waffen-SS? What editorial decision led to this? does this indicate cross-wiki porting? I'd appreciate an answer as it would go to another section (plagiarism detailed detection). Not a threat by the way, but a request for explanation of the editorial decision.
  • No, the article is entirely original (not translated); this template was suggested by UndercoverClassicist above. (t · c) buidhe 14:08, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• "The Red Army shot prisoners [less often]", German aligned combatant prisoners? Soviet or formerly soviet-aligned prisoners?
  • Clarified
• "this contributed to a mutual escalation of violence" how did the Red Army shooting fewer prisoners contribute to escalation? It violates the conceptual structure of the initial verbal comparative. Try breaking into separate sentences?
• "Killings before reaching the collection point [de] are not counted as part of the figures for Soviet prisoner deaths." Okay… so why is there a trailing de link? Whose figures for Soviet deaths? Where has this content come from? Seriously, from a plagiarism basis where has this come from? Stranded sentences that are incoherent in the paragraphs' argument that reference cross-wiki content make me really bloody worried about copyvio/closepara. Separate from cv/cp issues, whose figures, and why do we care? "OKH compiled figures ignored deaths prior to concentration at collection points." "Post-war Soviet figures neglected as POW deaths deaths prior to collection by OKH POW authorities." See the issue with a lack of a collective noun?
  • The link is a result of trying to avoid jargon (see some of UC's comments above), not copyvio from a foreign language source. The death statistics referred to are the German ones, since Soviet collection of information naturally cannot distinguish between missing and prisoners. Nevertheless, I have clarified. (t · c) buidhe 06:13, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• "overtaken by the German advance without being captured were ordered to present themselves to the German authorities under the threat of summary execution" were ordered by whom? STAVKA? OKH? Kinda matters there. One's a lawful order, the other is an order given to unsurrendered combatants by OPFOR. The collapsed nouns are causing real problems in reading. I know what you're saying because I'm already aware of which institutional authority is responsible for which abhorrent preventable killings, but "average reader" won't be.
  • The interpretation that Soviet authorities would order their soldiers to surrender hadn't occurred to me, but I rewrote to clarify. (t · c) buidhe 14:08, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• "Despite the Supreme Command of Ground Forces (OKH) order, prisoners were often taken under such circumstances;[57][54] thousands of Red Army soldiers were executed on the spot as "partisans" or "irregulars"". So we have a comparative between "Despite X: prisoners were taken; thousands of Soldiers were shot." That's not a good construction. Break into sentences to avoid spanning comparatives. "OKH ordered shootings. Prisoners were often taken by Heer units despite OKH commands. Yet thousands of Red Army soldiers were executed." Breaking into sentences prevents OKH orders spanning opposed comparatives.
• "Others evaded capture " which others? OKH, Heer, Soviet soldiers? There are three major nouns in the prior multi clause sentence, you need to reestablish the central noun.
• I have reached "Processing." I believe this is a sufficient basis to oppose on 1a. Failed noun targets, verbal clauses which avoid comparatives correctly, and passive voice avoiding assigning agentic power to responsible state authorities is sufficient. The clarity of the lede isn't present in the body where implied subjects and objects have to be read for aggressively exist. I will of course continue the review in other areas I identified I'd review, and expect good results there. (rest of 1, 2, plagiarism). Generalised editing on the points above throughout the article would be required for reassessment of this criteria (which I'd be happy to do.) Fifelfoo (talk) 09:58, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've rephrased in most of the above cases, while there are a few where I felt the suggestion was not an improvement. While I appreciate your feedback helping to improve the article and reduce the potential for misunderstanding, other editors seem to feel there is sufficient clarity from context. Some vagueness is inevitable, indeed appropriate, when dealing with many agencies issuing conflicting orders and people on the ground not necessarily following any of them. (t · c) buidhe 06:13, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

1c Well-researched inflation specific: improvement needed

I am not attacking the sources selected, or the choice to make a calculation for the purposes of the readers' benefit. Nor am I attacking the choice of calculation for comparison (USCPI). But there are two problems with the inflations: US cents are not specified (a wide variety of nations use cents); Current footnote 190abc Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis 2019. doesn't indicate that the calculation was a triviality performed by editorial staff. Consider "Approximately 13 cents in contemporary US dollars,[189] or $2 today." and "Calculated using Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis 2019." Fifelfoo (talk) 10:53, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Sure, I'm not attached to this way of indicating inflation, but I used it because it was already in other featured articles, including the Holocaust in Slovakia. I did add "United States" for clarification. (t · c) buidhe 14:36, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm not troubled by the editorial decision to use a post-war interstate arbitration of values between RM and USD, or your choice of CPI as appropriate inflator: these are good editorial decisions in inflation. Wages of unskilled workers (as Soviet POWS were forced to labour) is an appropriate CPI inflation use. I'm concerned about attribution of the calculation, and indication that the "modern comparator" is in USD. I think many people across the world can readily recognise USD values in beer and skittles, rent and hours of labour. Please see this edit: attempted indication of calculation for me indicating a fix. If you like the fix, please incorporate it. I am going to indicate that I'd 1c Inflation Only oppose over attribution of calculation, by I understand FAC moderators know who I am, and what bee I have in my bonnet over inflation calculation and the potential for original research in this domain, and that in my oppose they would read that I do not consider the underlying choice of inter-state value transformation or CPI as incorrect. They would weight my oppose on 1c inflation only appropriately. (compared to my expectation that every other category of my review would be support / resolved). Do you see what I'm getting at with the sample edit? We're showing that the calculation is Wikipedia's because the calculation is trivial here. Trivial equalling "not OR". Thank you for indicating the reference cents are USD cents.
  • Additionally in relation to other FAs: "Other stuff exists." I'm reviewing the high quality article that your editorial community has put time into on its merits in front of my eyes: FAC coordinators know how to value my opinion and would not overweight it. Fifelfoo (talk) 08:28, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

1e Stability: support

I'm convinced the article is stable, I noted a series of 3K additions, and removals, the talk page appears to have been functioning when these emerged and raised them, and editors on the talk page sought as editors to reach a proper editorial resolution including asking for external assistance without prompting or conflict requiring such. Fifelfoo (talk) 10:53, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

3 Media: query (resolved)

Have you considered using blockquotes drawn from primary sources which are themselves used in secondary sources as "typifying" of individual experiences? Text can act as media. It is useful for blending "colour" with "personal experience" and "voice from the era"? This is a query only, not a decline. Fifelfoo (talk) 10:53, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• I'm not sure that the encyclopedia's goals include capturing "colour", "personal experience" and "voice from the era". Furthermore, you don't find many similar quotations in a lot of related articles, including FAs. I'm not opposed to quotations but I only add them if I feel that it increases the reader's encyclopedic understanding more than paraphrasing/rewriting, per MOS:QUOTE. (t · c) buidhe 14:36, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thank you for responding to this query. I was following MOS:IMAGERELEVANCE's concept of media as "an important illustrative aid to understanding." While I've got the reading to experience the illustrative affect (emotional reaction) to the image files presented. From your MOS:QUOTE: "Quotation should be used, with attribution, to present emotive opinions that cannot be expressed in Wikipedia's own voice, but never to present cultural norms as simply opinional." My personal editorial opinion is that History articles can benefit from illustrative blockquotes from primary sources acting "as Media," for the purposes we use other media for. I must admit that I contributed significantly to the essay, which includes the observation at WP:HISTIP, "A fact qualifies for illustration when a major scholarly text explicitly demonstrates a point by reference to a primary source, or quotes a primary source in demonstration of a major (as weighted) fact." Text causes me to react in ways illustrative image media doesn't. I'm not suggesting quoting Idi i smotri. As the sponsoring editor you may have read the most reputable scholarly sources who themselves cannot avoid quoting primary sources to illustrate the impact on humans that encamped starvation or sub-survival calorie slave labour do not have when referred to technically. I trust your judgement entirely here, but was suggesting a category of historical media that is sometimes neglected. If a more versed editor than I could recommend an example of a recent historical FA that quotes a primary source in terms of WP:HISTIP's suggestions I would value their example of style, as I've been on an extended wikibreak. Thank you again for considering this query, I've noted it as resolved based on your consideration. Fifelfoo (talk) 07:58, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Statistical graphic "Soviet prisoners of war by year of capture" almost certainly requires sourcing for its stats. Fifelfoo (talk) 09:58, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  The data is cited in the Commons image description as recommended, which you get to by clicking on the image. (t · c) buidhe 14:14, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

4 Length: support

I am satisfied the length suits the topic, and the section lengths suit the importance of the sections to the encyclopaedic presentation. Fifelfoo (talk) 10:53, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• I appreciate your review. (t · c) buidhe 14:36, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Hi Fifelfoo, can I just confirm that your oppose still stands, on the basis of criteria 1a and 1c? Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 10:37, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support by Shushugah

• Specify USD$ in the footnotes
  • Done
• Consistently italicize and capitalize the German words used, e.g Abwher -> Abwher and lebensraum -> Lebensraum
  • I capitalized lebensraum but I don't agree with italicizing when most English sources don't (Abwehr, Waffen-SS, etc.)
• Use Umlaut consistently or not (ä replaced with ae etc..) e.g Flossenbürg becomes Flossenbuerg
  • where is it not used?
    • Militaergeschichtliche Zeitschrift, Wuelfel, (note: Neuengamme is correct)
  • Fixed both thx (t · c) buidhe 19:32, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• I understood the comparison of Polish/Russian prisons of war, but given it mentions other civilians of Russian citizenry, I am surprised by lack of mention of World War II casualties of Poland which is one of the highest in WW2.
  • why is this relevant to include? It's certainly not true in absolute terms, where the Soviet losses dwarfed everyone else's. Losses were proportionally higher in the western Soviet union as well
• I was confused by the racial hierarchy paragraph; Nazi racial theories § Slavs left me more confused what is meant by Asians, and what is meant by Russian, particularly with counter-examples of Georgians being consider Aryan potentially on one hand, and Ukrainians being called "Untermentsch" on the other.
  • Where Soviet citizens were concerned there was a clear hierarchy of treatment in practice, which was only partly based on Nazi racial theories." Asian does not mean Georgian but Central Asians, Siberians who looked" Mongoloid ". I can try to source more explanation on that point
• @Buidhe and Shushugah: is there more to come from either of you here? Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 10:39, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  @Gog the Mild @Buidhe thanks for the ping! The link to Mongoloids for Asians helped me better understand what is being referred within local racial hierarchies. I am happy to give my suppport and wanted to mention some small nitpicks (not blockers for my support)

  • Wikilink military or police collaboration and recruiting Soviet collaborators for military and police functions with link Collaboration in the German-occupied Soviet Union
  • Remove MOS:FULLSTOP from images captions. Some have them, some don't. Better to be consistent and remove all of them.

  ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 14:36, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Shushugah. Without actually checking the captions, I assume that the perceived problem is because they adhere to MOS:CAPFRAG ? Gog the Mild (talk) 14:40, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Gog the Mild exactly. I see that consistency between sentence and caption fragment is not explicitly required. Some of the captions could easily be converted into sentences, but not required nor beneficial. So strike my feedback on MOS:CAPFRAG. ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 14:50, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed the wikilink, appreciate feedback and your support :) (t · c) buidhe 03:28, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support by Nick-D

It's great to see a high quality article on this very important topic. I'd like to offer the following comments:

• I agree that the article seems miss-titled given it covers all aspects of how the Germans treated Soviet POWs. The current title could give readers the impression that only some Soviet POWs were subjected to atrocities or that this was a sub-set of the German policies.
• There's a fair bit of over-linking. I'd suggest using one of the tools to identify duplicate links.
  • Guidance on MOS:REPEATLINK has changed and I believe the article fulfills the new standards (it's now recommended to repeat links each section where that aids reader understanding): many readers don't go in order.
• "To increase the speed of conquest, the German invaders planned to feed their army by looting" - from memory, Adam Tooze argues in The Wages of Destruction that this was also due to the weakness of the German war economy
  • I'm not sure if that is worth mentioning in this article, it's not mainly about pillage.
    • The statement that this was done only to "increase the speed of conquest" is an oversimplification. The strain that the German war economy was under is relevant to the topic of this article, so it seems a good idea to get details like this right. Nick-D (talk) 11:10, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      • Great, thanks for the tip. I mined the Tooze source for information and revised the sentence in the article. (t · c) buidhe 12:52, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• "Because prisoners of war were held under tighter control than urban or Jewish civilians, they had a higher death rate from starvation" - this seems out of place
  • How so? It is intended to build on the previous sentences and explain similarities and differences between Nazi policies
    • This looks fine on second reading Nick-D (talk) 11:10, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• The text starting with "It is disputed if the German command" doesn't really cover the differing views and who holds them
  • OK, I have attempted to rewrite. I think sources agree that as time went on the labor of prisoners was prioritized, but where they differ is emphasizing logistical vs ideological factors, and whether it is a "mass killing" or only "mass death".
• "Especially in 1941, the German Army often refused to take prisoners on the Eastern Front and shot Soviet soldiers who tried to surrender." - this sentence seems far too categorical. It would also be good to explain whether this was the actions of individual soldiers or whether they were directed to not take prisoners (or a bit of both)
  • clarified that these do not seem to be ordered from above, but tacitly tolerated by the military leadership
• "Red Army soldiers overtaken by the German advance without being captured were ordered by the Supreme Command of Ground Forces (OKH) to present themselves to the German authorities under the threat of summary execution" - how could and did the German high command order Soviet soldiers to do this?
  • "Schon am 25. Juli 1941 befahl das OKH, versprengte Rotarmisten hätten „sich sofort bei der nächsten deutschen Wehrmachtsdienststelle zu melden. Geschieht das nicht, sind sie von einem gebietsweise festzusetzenden Zeitpunkt ab als Freischärler anzusehen und entsprechend zu behandeln."" and what was the result? "Im Rahmen der Partisanenbekämpfung wurde nicht nur in Zivil untergetauchten Soldaten, sondern sogar aufgegriffenen Uniformierten die Erschießung angedroht." Yes, the order was actually directed at Red Army soldiers, although the extent to which it reached them was debatable: "Mit Hilfe von Fristen sollte das deutsche Besatzungsgebiet „von Versprengten gereinigt" werden53. Aber war es realistisch und vor allem fair, die in den Wäldern und Sümpfen vagabundierenden Uberlebenskünstler mittels Plakaten und Flugblättern erreichen zu wollen?"
• "An estimated 20 percent or more" - what is this a proportion of? The total POWs taken during this period or something else?
  • Clarified
• "Shooting prisoners was encouraged." - by whom, and who were they encouraging to do this?
  • Clarified
• "about half were recaptured,[92] and around 10,000 reached Switzerland." - surely far more would have returned home to German occupied territory, cross the front line to Soviet territory or become partisans?
  • that's true but we have no figures for that.
• "Due to its clear-cut criminality, the treatment of Soviet prisoners of war was mentioned in the International Military Tribunal's indictment" - can you say why?
  • It was particularly illegal because the Geneva Convention was very clear, in contrast to other crimes some of which were less well defined and others that were invented almost from whole cloth at Nuremberg
    • Sorry, I miss-read the text here to include a 'not' between 'was' and 'mentioned'. Nick-D (talk) 11:10, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• "Viktor Zemskov says" - I'd suggest identifying who this person is (e.g. is he a historian?)
  • Done
• "Thousands of books have been published about the Holocaust, but in 2016 there were no books in English about the fate of Soviet prisoners of war." - this seems over-simplistic given that the topic is routinely covered in English language works on the Soviet-German war, sometimes in quite a bit of detail.
  • While it's not a perfect metric, I've seen it in multiple sources. It's clear to me that the topic is vastly under studied compared to the number of deaths, even in comparison to other atrocities that killed large numbers of Soviet citizens - such as anti-partisan warfare. (t · c) buidhe 21:12, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • Surely something can be said that acknowledges that there is in fact a sizable English language literature on this topic while also noting the lack of dedicated books? (the English language literature on the Soviet Union's war experiences continues to be very patchy across the board). The topic is usually covered as part of popular works on the war, so English language people with an interest in the conflict should be aware of it as a result. For instance, I first became aware of his issue in the 1990s through Anthony Beevor's enormously popular book Stalingrad, which includes a focus on the experiances of the Soviet prisoners who ended up fighting with the Germans at Stalingrad. Nick-D (talk) 11:10, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

      While that's true, I don't think it's verifiable to make such a claim about the English language literature specifically. Quinkert et al. discuss Russian and German literatures but not publications in English. (t · c) buidhe 01:46, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

      • I've had a poke around academic journal databases, and haven't hard any luck here either. I really don't like this text as it misrepresents the literature, but I guess it's technically accurate. I'd suggest continuing to look for sources here, perhaps in PhD thesis literature review sections and the like. Nick-D (talk) 11:11, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• I'd suggest briefly noting the far right narrative that has attempted to present the way in which the western Allies held German POWs in 1945 as being directly comparable to the treatment of Soviet POWs. Nick-D (talk) 02:06, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Seems UNDUE given that I didn't see this anywhere in the sources and even the crank stuff like Other Losses doesn't focus on this comparison. (t · c) buidhe 02:38, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • Fair enough. I needed to weed a lot of it out of Wikipedia articles a few years ago, and some sources on Holocaust denial note that this comparison gets made. Nick-D (talk) 11:10, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your review (t · c) buidhe 04:43, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Hi Nick-D, I was wondering if you felt in a position to either support or oppose this nomination? Obviously, neither is obligatory. Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 10:40, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've posted some replies above. Nick-D (talk) 11:10, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support My comments are now addressed, though I've left a further response above. Nick-D (talk) 11:11, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

I am surprised that there has not been an image review so far. Here goes my attempt at one, Buidhe:

• All images have appropriate sources and licenses. Only the link in the German advances map is no longer online, you will have to add an archive URL. Matarisvan (talk) 09:06, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Suggest adding an alt for the infobox image. All other images have appropriate alts. Matarisvan (talk) 09:06, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Added archive link (t · c) buidhe 12:47, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    The image review is a pass then. Cheers Matarisvan (talk) 17:20, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Matarisvan

Text review:

• "Although more than a million": "Although" is not necessary here, consider removing?
• "mass death of prisoners, with": prefix "along" before "with", since we have a conjuctive here?
• "Little planning was made": "done" instead of "made"?
• "that was fewer": "the actual number" instead of "that"?
• "ordered from above": "by the high command" instead of "from above"?
• "while escaped": "after their escape" would be better grammatically?
• Link to Gestapo on first use instead of second?
• "1,487 calories": consider providing the required calories per day for an adult male as a comparable?
  • This is a bit difficult. Many were required to perform hard labor which increases calorie requirements. I did mention that it's a starvation amount even if the POWs received it, which they didn't.
• "and by the end of the war around a million were": "and the total number released was around a million by the end of the war" would be grammatically better, wdyt?
• "With the army's cooperation, [] Error: [undefined] Error: {{Lang}}: no text (help): no text (help) units": Fix the lang template?
• "Soviet Muslims mistaken for Jews were sometimes killed": are any numbers available? If so, consider adding?
  • No
• "when the front approached": what does "front" mean here? Frontline? Do we intend to say "when the frontline was closer to the camps"?
  • Linked Front (military)
• "advocating the transfer": add "for" after "advocating"?
• "under the control of the SS": "to" instead of under?
• "Officers were over-represented": are any percentages known?
  • Not in any of the sources consulted
• Link to Hanover-Wülfel?
  • There isn't a good link, even on de wikipedia the closest is de:Döhren-Wülfel, no en wiki article for that
• Is the 2015 reparations amount known? If so, consider adding along with an inflation adjusted figure?
  • Done (still recent enough that I'm not sure inflation is helpful to include)
• "Hartmann's 3 million": Introduce and link to Hartmann here instead of in the legacy section?

Source formatting review:

• Would you consider adding DOIs and JSTOR IDs for books? If so, I can provide them. Many sources are from OUP, CUP or other university presses which allow access through The Wikipedia Library that is easier than accessing through ISBNs.
  • I have no objection if you want to do it.
• For Quinkert, Keller, Kozlova, Meier & Winkel and Latyschew 2021, I don't think the following text is necessary if you're using harvc: "Dimensionen eines Verbrechens: Sowjetische Kriegsgefangene im Zweiten Weltkrieg | Dimensions of a Crime. Soviet Prisoners of War in World War II (in German and English). Metropol Verlag. ISBN 978-3-86331-582-5." Just using in1, in2 and year parameters would be enough.
  • I don't understand in1 and the documentation doesn't explain it, as far as I can tell. Could you reformat one of the refs so I can see what you mean?
• Add archive URLs for "Consumer Price Index, 1800–", Foreign Claims Settlement Commission 1968, Otto & Keller 2019?
  • I don't have the script or bot that does this, but I don't have any objection to it.
• Remove the links to USGPO, Cambridge University Press, Yale University Press, Militärgeschichtliche Zeitschrift and Russian History? Otherwise you will have to link to all other publishers and journals to maintain consistency.
  • I should now have bluelinked everything that has an enwiki article.
• Consider adding series and volume numbers for sources which provide these? For example, Pohl 2012, Otto & Keller 2019 etc.
  • I guess I'm not convinced that this is particularly helpful (it isn't needed to find the book) and I try to keep the info in bibliographies to what is actually going to be useful.
• Is there any material in Keller 2011 which we could add here? Otherwise, if it is similar to the works cited here, then you may have to remove it.
  • It goes into a lot of detail on a particular group of Soviet POWs that are a minority of the total, thus WP:UNDUE to add. We already cite a bunch of info from his summary of his research in Keller 2021. The full book is listed for readers desiring more information on that specifically. If there was a separate article for Soviet prisoners of war in Germany I would remove it and list in there instead.

I'll try to do a source review with spot checks soon. Overall, I found the article impressive and well written, congratulations to you on writing such a great article. Cheers Matarisvan (talk) 09:06, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Thanks for your review, I have actioned everything except some of what I mentioned above. (t · c) buidhe 13:46, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Hi, I have done the biblio formatting, please let me know if my format is ok with you. On the text and source formatting, a support from me. Will try to get the spotchecks done in 1-2 days. Matarisvan (talk) 17:17, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Thanks! All the formatting looks good. Note: I added a source, Westermann 2023, in response to comments above (t · c) buidhe 01:35, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  I should be able to get you pdfs of almost all the sources if you can't access them (t · c) buidhe 14:51, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Not a problem, I had noticed that addition during my edit and formatted it too. For the spot checks, I will be going through 15 refs which is roughly 6% of the total refs. For generating the ref numbers I will use a random number generator to get as random numbers as possible. Here goes the source review, @Buidhe:

  • All sources are from reliable publishers and authors.
  • #9, #14, #39, #43, #47, #49, #80, #93, #106, #117, #134, #156, #190: all ok
  • #28: mostly ok but I couldn't find the supporting text for "several weeks after the start of the war", since no date is given for Hitler's rejection of POW terms.
  • #254: The second sentence is ok, but the first is not. The source says "Post-war German rationalizations and apologia for the Soviet mortality even included claims that it was the long-term undernourishment of Soviet soldiers by their own Government that had led to their widespread deaths in German captivity" while the article says "After the war, some Germans made apologetic statements about the 1941 causes of mass death". I think you misunderstood what apologia means here, the Germans were not apologizing for the Soviet deaths but trying to defend themselves, one definition of apologia can be "a formal written defence of one's opinions or conduct". So you will have to change the first sentence to some variant of "After the war, there were some German attempts to deflect the blame for the 1941 mass deaths".

  Matarisvan (talk) 15:35, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  For #28, based on the text it occurred before another Soviet order that was dated in August. I'm looking for another source that gives the time frame more explicitly. It is supposed to be in Streim's chapter of this book, but I cannot access it :(

  For #254, I mean apologetic in the second sense listed in the dictionary, but evidently that's not clear so I rewrote it. (t · c) buidhe 20:17, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  I can't find anything else for #28, but I could remove it if you want. (t · c) buidhe 20:37, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  No, let me check by using Streim's book's DOI and JSTOR, I'll wikimail you the page or page range. Matarisvan (talk) 05:32, 7 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  @Buidhe, Google Books has the access to the relevant pages, namely 295-296, but these also do not have any dates. I think you will have to remove the phrase "several weeks after the start of the war". Matarisvan (talk) 08:55, 7 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  If you look at page 296, these diplomatic communication are dated to July and August 1941—aka within the first several weeks of the war. (t · c) buidhe 13:41, 7 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  The source review a pass then, @Buidhe. Cheers Matarisvan (talk) 16:46, 7 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Graham Beards

There are redundancies in the prose. I have made some edits to the Lead as examples [27]. The main problem is the excessive use of "numbers" as in "numbers of" and so forth. Can we check that these are needed and for variations where possible? Graham Beards (talk) 11:29, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, thanks for the copyedits. I went through the body and reduced the use of the word "numbers", but I cannot think of a better rephrasing in the remaining cases. Although some could be replaced by "amount", I don't think it would be an improvement. (t · c) buidhe 16:41, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I am pleased to add my Support. Well done. Graham Beards (talk) 16:44, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Gog the Mild

Recusing to review.

• "The German military did not record Soviet prisoner deaths that occurred prior to arriving at the collection points." Slightly clumsy. Perhaps a slight rephrase? Eg 'The German military did not record Soviet deaths that occurred prior to prisoners arriving at the collection points' or similar.
• Only one work has a publisher location (Foreign Claims Settlement Commission). Could we have consistency?
• "Two-thirds of them died from starvation, exposure, and disease by early 1942". Perhaps 'Two-thirds of them had died from starvation, exposure, and disease by early 1942'.
• "ranking as one of the highest death rates from mass atrocity in history." Really! Surely there were plenty with a 100% death rate? I note that the same phrase is used in the main article, but the greater context makes it more reasonable to take "rate" as meaning 'number'. I suggest tweaking the wording in both cases, certainly in the lead.
  • "Death rate" doesn't refer to the percentage of people who died, but the ratio of deaths per unit of time, in this case deaths per month: "one of the highest rates of human destruction in history". Is there a way to rephrase it so it's clearer what the source means? (t · c) buidhe 03:17, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, so currently you have "Two-thirds of them had died from starvation, exposure, and disease by early 1942—ranking as one of the highest death rates from mass atrocity in history." I think that if you are going to go with this it needs to be based on a number rather than a fraction. Eg 'By early 1942 over two-thirds of the more than three million Soviet military personal taken prisoner had died.' Then, perhaps in a separate sentence, 'This is one of the highest sustained rates of killing for any mass atrocity in history.' How does this or something like it sound? Gog the Mild (talk) 19:02, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done (t · c) buidhe 03:55, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• "More prisoners were shot for being wounded, ill, or unable to keep up with forced marches." Optional, → 'More prisoners were shot because they were wounded, ill, or unable to keep up with forced marches.'

Gog the Mild (talk) 20:07, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Actioned everything else besides that raised above. Thank you. (t · c) buidhe 03:30, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Buidhe. I keep coming across niggly issues in the main article, so I am going to recuse and review in full. I anticipate that much of it will be copy editing. I will do some of it straight into the article. If you disagree with or don't understand any changes, could we discuss that here? Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 15:08, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Foreign language words, eg Lebensraum, should be in lang templates, not just italics.
  • Done
• "the German military's High Command (OKW) ... The OKW said ..." OKW only needs introducing once, similarly linking the short form.
  • Previously this was the case, but the guidance on overlinking changed because we can't assume readers are viewing the article sections in order. (t · c) buidhe 16:49, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• "Abwehr officer Helmuth James Graf von Moltke was one of the few who favored treating Soviet prisoners according to the law." This seems a bit odd. Why cherry pick this one German soldier to have his opinion detailed?
  • Not cherry picking by me, but he is the only dissenter mentioned in RS (t · c) buidhe 16:49, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• "intent to use the prisoners as a labor reserve before and during the war." Use as labor before the war? (Ie, before they were captured.)
  • There is a better way to phrase this, but the controversy is over whether, before the war and during its first months, Wehrmacht planners intended to feed their prisoners so that they could be deployed in large scale forced labor projects (which would occur once the war started and prisoners were captured) (t · c) buidhe 16:49, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• "During the invasion of France in 1940, 1.9 million prisoners of war". Just the invasion of France or the whole Western Campaign?
  • Source says France. EC&G gives a total of 1.8 million French POWs and significantly more than 2 million for the Western campaign as a whole. (t · c) buidhe 16:49, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• "In 1941, three or four Soviet soldiers were captured for each one killed, indicating widespread surrender". This is a tautology. I mean, a PoW pretty much assumes a prior surrender.
  • Removed as the later sentences in the paragraph state Edele's conclusion from these numbers. (t · c) buidhe 16:49, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• "thirteen major cauldron battles". Rather than going with the (unexplained) technical term, how about 'thirteen battles where large Soviet forces were surrounded' or similar?
  • Done
• "a collection point at the division or army level." There were no corps level collection points?
  • Not mentioned by the source; EC&G is silent on this point so I took it out as unimportant. (t · c) buidhe 16:49, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

More to follow. Gog the Mild (talk) 16:17, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Gog the Mild do you have further input? Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^talk 10:40, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

David, I do, I do. Apologies, I am fighting my way out of a nasty, six-day dose of Covid. (Unless I go radio silent again, in which case keep counting.) I shall get onto it. Gog the Mild (talk) 17:30, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• "Some prisoners had to live in the open for the entire winter, in unheated rooms." Living in even "unheated rooms" is not living "in the open for the entire winter",
• "Following setbacks in the military campaign, Hitler ordered on 31 October". What military setbacks occurred prior to 31 October?

Gog the Mild (talk) 21:36, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• "The first 200,000 Soviet prisoners of war were deported to Germany in July and August 1941". The first 200,000 to be captured or the first 200,000 to be deported?
  • The latter, clarified (t · c) buidhe 20:58, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's it from me. Gog the Mild (talk) 20:20, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Infant school

Nominator(s): Llewee (talk) 17:03, 16 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

People who grew up in the UK might remember attending an infant school or the "infants" of their primary school. What they might not be aware of is that the concept has a long and complicated history; stretching from New York to New Zealand.

This is my second featured nomination. The article has recently been promoted to good status (See:Talk:Infant school/GA1). Thank you to anyone who decides to review it.Llewee (talk) 17:03, 16 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Wehwalt

• Since the movement began in Scotland, could some lead mention be done as to whether infant schools flourished in Scotland?

• Frustratingly, I haven't been able to find much information about Scotland. Charitable infant schools certainly existed there in the early part of the movement but Scotland seems to drop out of the story at the middle of the 19th century. Presumably infant schools weren't adopted into the state system there to the same extent.--Llewee (talk) 21:31, 16 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• It's not a complete picture but I have added more information about the history in Scotland into the body of the article.--Llewee (talk) 10:50, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• According to David Salmon and Winifred Hindshaw," What is their profession?

• The source says they were as senior staff at a teacher training college. I have described them as "educationalists in the early 20th century".--Llewee (talk) 22:19, 16 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• "manager Robert Owen". Is manager the proper term or was the the owner or some such?

• The source says manager. I have added some additional detail and dealt with the false title issue.--Llewee (talk) 22:32, 16 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• "He saw child labour as damaging and forbid children under the age of ten from working in his factory." Should forbid be forbade.

• done--Llewee (talk) 21:16, 16 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• "Various other figures — including Robert Pole, David Goyder, William Wilson, William Allen and Thomas Bilby — also established infant schools and wrote books about the subject." Given that these are apparently not notable, though I did not check, are they worth naming?

• Taken them out, Goyder comes up in the US section but mentioning him here doesn't really add much additional info.--Llewee (talk) 22:44, 16 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• "Academic David Turner" this and also Owen above, I thought false titles were disfavoured in British English?

• tweaked wording--Llewee (talk) 22:38, 16 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• "T.B Stephens" Is this properly punctuated?

• Changed to "T.B."--Llewee (talk) 21:35, 16 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• "making it easier for them to pay infant schools relatively low fees.[47]" An apostrophe somewhere, likely after schools

• reworded sentence--Llewee (talk) 13:21, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• "The number of children under seven in schools for older children also rose." I'm not a fan of having "also rose" refer back to a previous section. Perhaps begin, "Like workers' wages, the number of ..."

• I've changed "also rose" to "increased".--Llewee (talk) 21:43, 16 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• "it would be sometime" some time?

• done--Llewee (talk) 21:16, 16 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

More soon.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:32, 16 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• "Some teachers failed to teach reading to poorer pupils, with no reason to develop an interest in the subject outside of school. " This sentence doesn't read as complete.

• Combined with previous sentence.--Llewee (talk) 13:21, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• "For instance, an employee of the Board of Education, Lord Eustace Percy later wrote in his memoirs:" He appears to have been president of the Board of Education (and earlier, parliamentary secretary), which are political positions held by members of Parliament. He was not an employee.

• Sorry I missed this one, changed to "political appointment".--Llewee (talk) 12:51, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• "Infant-stage children solving puzzles at a school in Dominion of New Zealand (c. 1900 – c. 1947)" I would omit "Dominion of".

• done--Llewee (talk) 14:14, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• "In order to encourage the freed workers to remain working there and spread Christianity among their children." Not a sentence.

• Combined with previous sentence.--Llewee (talk) 14:29, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• the owners power: missing apostrophe

• reworded--Llewee (talk) 14:29, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• "a system of state funded schooling in Ireland " redirects to Stanley letter. WP:EASTEREGG would seem to have some relevance.

• I've changed the link to "establish a system" to try to make clearer what the linked article is about.--Llewee (talk) 14:56, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• I'm surprised throughout the Ireland section, there is no mention of religion.

• The Catholic Church is mentioned a lot in the book. I've added more information about its influence into the article but I'm trying to keep the focus on topics that are specifically relevant to infant schools/classes.--Llewee (talk) 17:31, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• "skepticism". I thought this was "scepticism" in BrEng.

• Yes, changed--Llewee (talk) 15:00, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Overtime maybe over time

• done--Llewee (talk) 15:04, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's it for now. I guess what strikes me at first glance is that this seems mostly about the past, the history, without much discussion of what present-day infant schools are like. Thoughts?--Wehwalt (talk) 01:27, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wehwalt I think less information specific to infant schools exists for more recent times because they have gradually lost some of their separate identity. I have tried to flesh out the "part of primary education" section with more information.--Llewee (talk) 23:09, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support certainly on prose. I'm hedging some on comprehensiveness for the reasons stated above, but hope to be able to enter a full support following additional reviews. Wehwalt (talk) 13:30, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Source review by Generalissima

Some general notes:

• I'm not sure thefreedictionary.com is the best source to use for the first ref; also, Collins and Merriam-Webster both state that its simply in use "in the UK". Since these have at least some history in Scotland, I think that'll be better to use.

• I have tidied up the terminology section and added a few dictionary sources.--Llewee (talk) 18:09, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Ref 98 has an error that needs fixing.

• done--Llewee (talk) 22:50, 16 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Grimshaw (1931) and Morgan (1936) needs the publisher put in title case.

• done--Llewee (talk) 22:47, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Capitalise Co in Longmans, Green, and Co.

• done--Llewee (talk) 22:47, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• You wikilink RTE News in bibliography, but not BBC News. Try for consistency one way or another here.

• done--Llewee (talk) 22:50, 16 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Some of your sources aren't in title case and need to be converted to such; Garland, Keane et al, Lehane, Lewis, Pence, and Salmon.

• done--Llewee (talk) 13:25, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• University of Wales Press needs a location (Cardiff), as does Palgrave Macmillan (London), Routledge (Abingdon), Peter Lang (Laussane), and Taylor & Francis (Milton Park). Alternatively, remove location from all the cites that have it.

• Taken out the existing locations.--Llewee (talk) 23:01, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• You need to wikilink either all publishers or none of them.

• I think I have got all the ones that have articles now.--Llewee (talk) 11:25, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Take "others=Internet Archive" out of the Pence cite. They didn't make the book. Also take out the via, since you (rightfully) Yaren't saying Via Jstor for the JSTOR cites.

• done--Llewee (talk) 23:06, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Add a space between the initials T.B Turner.

• done--Llewee (talk) 11:07, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• May et al Doesn't have an ISBN.

• added--Llewee (talk) 13:32, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• This is a very broad article in a field thats well-studied, so obviously we can't use all sourcing. I do feel like you're underusing modern educational journal articles though, and there might be some good ones we can find. Some sources that came up from a search which might be useful:
  • Shannon, R. L., & Shannon, D. M. (1992). The British Infant School: A Reconsideration. The Educational Forum, 56(1), 61–69. https://doi.org/10.1080/00131729109335177 - Good sourcing for its influence outside of the UK.
  • Monks, Claire P., and Sarah O’Toole. "Bullying in preschool and infant school." The Wiley Blackwell handbook of bullying: A comprehensive and international review of research and intervention 2 (2021): 2-19.
  • Burger, Kaspar. "Entanglement and transnational transfer in the history of infant schools in Great Britain and salles d’asile in France, 1816–1881." History of Education 43, no. 3 (2014): 304-333.
  • Luc, Jean-Noël. "The spread of infant school models in Europe during the first half of the nineteenth century." In The Development of Early Childhood Education in Europe and North America: Historical and Comparative Perspectives, pp. 31-50. London: Palgrave Macmillan UK, 2015.
  • Raveaud, Maroussia. "Assessment in French and English infant schools: assessing the work, the child or the culture?." Assessment in Education: Principles, Policy & Practice 11, no. 2 (2004): 193-211.
  • Blatchford, Peter, Viv Moriarty, Suzanne Edmonds, and Clare Martin. "Relationships between class size and teaching: A multimethod analysis of English infant schools." American Educational Research Journal 39, no. 1 (2002): 101-132.

That's about it for now. Let me know when you want me to take a second look, @Llewee:. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 18:32, 16 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Generalissima, I have responded to each of your points now and expanded the article with information from journals. I hope you will be able to have another look when you have time.--Llewee (talk) 11:36, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Took a look back over - apologies that this took a while - but I think it's in a lot better spot now! Happy to support on source review. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 02:58, 8 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

• File:British_Central_School_Borough_Road.png: when and where was this first published? Ditto File:Infant_gallery.png, File:Beckside_Infants_c.1900s_(archive_ref_DDPD-2-2-8)_(25384528296).jpg, File:First_Infant_School_in_Green_Street,_New_York_MET_MM82866.jpg

• The second image is from a book published in 1840 (See:https://archive.org/details/asystemforeduca00wildgoog/page/n130/mode/1up). I will have a look for the other ones in a moment.--Llewee (talk) 21:30, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• I found this which says the first image was published in 1834 in London.--Llewee (talk) 23:25, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• I don't know about the third. I'm not sure if it was ever published before it was released on Flickr.--Llewee (talk) 23:40, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• I've replaced this image with File:St Marys Infants School children in Saturday Market, Beverley for Queen Victoria's Diamond Jubilee 1899 (archive ref DDPD-2-2-8) (25381071806).jpg. It was taken in 1897 and does not appear to have been published until it was released on Flickr in 2016.--Llewee (talk) 10:35, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• I assumed the fourth one was 1828 in New York based on the information in the Wikicommons page and source.--Llewee (talk) 23:55, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• File:Which_is_your_Right_Hand%3F_A_study_in_an_Infant_School._(Graphic,_1898).jpg: copyright terms turn over on the new year, so life+100 tagging won't be correct until 1 January 2025.

• Changed to 95--Llewee (talk) 22:36, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• File:The_dog_(BM_1846,1219.12).jpg: the permission field and the licensing tags are contradictory here - NC images are considered non-free for our purposes

• The British museum gives this information on how to use it which links to CC BY-NC-SA 4.0 does that mean it's not available to use?--Llewee (talk) 22:36, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• I have just taken this image out.--Llewee (talk) 11:11, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• File:The_Infant_Model_School,_with_Owen's_Original_clocktower.png: what is the specific source?

• This museum website says it was from The Teacher's Manual for Infant Schools and Preparatory Classes but I can't find the image in this copy of the book.--Llewee (talk) 20:00, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Also, not an image issue, but I would suggest a thorough review of the article for style. Nikkimaria (talk) 16:33, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

WhatamIdoing whinges about links and size

• There are 9,279 words, which will take half an hour to read. That's 0.3 tomats, so a third of a short novel. This is pushing the upper end of WP:SIZE, and reduces the odds that the whole article will get read.

• I have split of Spread of infant schools outside Britain and Ireland into its own article. The original article is now 7778 words. Is that short enough or do I need to split it further?--Llewee (talk) 10:09, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• It is missing obvious links to articles such as Moral education, Physical exercise, and Playground. I've looked at a sample of 188 randomly selected articles over 5,000 words in length, and they typically have between 200 and 500 links to other articles (median of 312, mean of 376). Infant school is at the low end, so it could be a case of needing more links, or it could be a case of not choosing the right links. I think that the former is more likely than the latter.

• I have a number of additional links to the article, including the ones you suggested.--Llewee (talk) 16:22, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:33, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Pessimistic drive-by from UC

I'm not sure that this article really is what it says on the tin -- there is comparatively little, indeed almost nothing as far as I can see, about what an infant school actually is in the modern day, how they work, what it's like inside them, how important they are, the problems facing them, and so on. What we currently have, I think, is closer to an article like History of primary education in the United Kingdom.

Similarly, I think the section on Ireland would be better re-thought: as the scope of the article is currently conceived, we need one, and yet it really doesn't have the substance to do what it needs to do -- we have barely anything there after the 1960s, which clearly won't do for an article that purports to be the port of call for infant schools in Ireland as they exist right now.

Unfortunately, I am not sure that these issues can be easily remedied, at least not within the scope of an FAC. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 09:31, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

UndercoverClassicist I have added more information on present day infant schools in the UK and will do more research into them in Ireland. I think the overall structure of the article is inevitable as they are mainly notable for their historic role. There aren't that many separate infant schools left and the term doesn't seem to be used much officially.--Llewee (talk) 20:36, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Our article says that 10% of children of the relevant age attended one in 2018, and there are 1,700 of them -- that's not a small number, though it is obviously much smaller than the figure for primary schools. More generally, throughout the article, I think the distinction between those two things often gets muddy: as alluded above, I don't get the sense that the article really knows how it defines its scope between "infant schools" and "the education of children under about 8". UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 07:18, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

For the most part, with the exception of the earliest infant schools, I don't think there is much distinction between the two. The article says the term infant school "might refer to a separate school or a department within a larger school". The UK government uses the term infant classes for all children in the relevant age group.--Llewee (talk) 12:10, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Right, but we have this article (Infant school), a separate article for primary education (Primary school), a specific article for primary education in Wales and a lengthy article on education in England with relevant sections that don't fully overlap any of those categorisations. We then have History of education in Ireland and Education in the Republic of Ireland on the Irish material.

In my view, this is a scope-of-article problem, not a scope-of-subject one -- I think it would help for you to have a look at that set of articles, work out how they do (or should) fit together, and then think about where the material you want to write about would be best located. As it stands, I think this article is quite a comprehensive history of how young children have been educated in Britain, but it wouldn't be enough for the article about cars to be primarily a history of how cars used to be built. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 13:38, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

My view is that infant schools were a distinctive institution and phase of schooling in the past but have merged into primary education over time. "Infant school" is only really a notable topic for a Wikipedia article because of the history. The balance of the sources available seems to support that. In any case, I've updated the information about Ireland.--Llewee (talk) 17:55, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Coord note

This has been open for over six weeks and hasn't garnered a consensus to promote, and comments seem to have stalled. I have added it to Urgents, but unless it receives several further in depth reviews over the next week or so I am afraid that it is going to be archived. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^talk 15:17, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments and support from Gerda

I was invited and am willing to take a look, but have no idea of the topic, being familiar only with German and US varieties of Kindergarten and preschool. But sometimes the view of someone from outside might help ;) I'll write as I read, turning to the lead last. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:53, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you very much Gerda, I will answer some of the later comments first and then circle back to deal with the more complicated issues in the early sections.--Llewee (talk) 15:50, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Lead image

• The image of just some building tells me nothing. How about the one about "right hand" further below. I want to see an infant ;)

  done, I have added that 1898 drawing which is a nice image--Llewee (talk) 16:41, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Intro

• "An infant school is a type of school or school department for young children. Today, it is mainly used in England and Wales." It is unclear to me what "it" means in the second sentence, the type, or perhaps rather that specific name for it.

  clarified--Llewee (talk) 21:11, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Terminology

• I suggest not to start with infant school (lower case, not expected at the beginning), but perhaps say: The term "infant school" ...*

  done--Llewee (talk) 21:58, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• "age ranges for the group they cater to" - why "they"? So far it was singular.

  changed to "age ranges for this phase of education"

• I never need more than three refs for on fact.

  I have moved the dictionary definitions from a note into the body of the article.--Llewee (talk) 21:58, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• For someone completely unfamiliar, Reception, even with a link, comes as too much of a surprise, - perhaps turn the sentence around to prepare it?

  reworked this sentence--Llewee (talk) 21:58, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Similarly, Early Years Foundation Stage is a pompous term, - stage means podium for me ;) - perhaps pipe to early childhood education which makes more sense to me?

  I've changed the working to "integrated into preschool education" to try and use less jargon.--Llewee (talk) 21:58, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• I'd make 3 paras for UK, Wales and Ireland, or one.

  I have two paragraphs one covering the UK (England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland) and another for Ireland or more precisely the republic. I'd like to keep the Republic of Ireland in its own paragraph in order to not give the impression its in the same category to the various parts of the UK.--Llewee (talk) 21:58, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Background

• I think that for me it would be easier to first read Background, then Terminology.

  I think that would be a bit disjointed. As the terminology section is about the present day, it would effectively be setting the scene in circa-1800 then returning to the present before going back to the 1810s.--Llewee (talk) 17:34, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• I wonder if - after saying it's new, and I don't know if we have to mention the two people without an article - we can tell the story chronologically: first the common situation in the 19th century of one classroom schools, then take it from there.

  Do you mean moving the terminology section lower down the article?

  That was my point further up but I understand if not, as you explained. No, I meant, I wouldn't begin with the idea, then say what was previously and even later say what was before the 19th century. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:42, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  I have reorganised the first paragraph of the background section along the lines you suggested.--Llewee (talk) 21:11, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

First establishments

• no need to link to London

  unlinked--Llewee (talk) 15:50, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• "This was followed" - unclear what "This" means.

  Changed to "The London Society was followed" to try and clarify.--Llewee (talk) 15:50, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Theory ...

• "Some figures opposed the infant schools" - unsure what "figures" means here.

  Changed to "people"--Llewee (talk) 15:50, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Evolution

• I notice names of scholars who - without article - should get a little introduction about when they wrote these things and why it seems significant.

  I think I have dealt with all instances of this. Please tell me if I have missed any.--Llewee (talk) 14:28, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  I think you introduced them, it's just that my memory fails to recognise easily that a name was already mentioned in the previous section. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:50, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Worldwide spread

• I don't understand "an Infant School" - why caps?
• "planation"? - plantation?

  fixed both of these--Llewee (talk) 15:56, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Teaching methods

• "During this period" - someone who comes via headers doesn't know which.

  Clarified "In the mid-19th century,"--Llewee (talk) 15:59, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Infant departments

• "in the middle of century" - which?

  Clarified "in the middle of the 19th century"--Llewee (talk) 16:05, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Need a break, read until header "Shift to child-centered approach". --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:05, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I read now - without problems - until Ireland. I will take a look at headers and there levels because I don't recall any similar England - Scptland that would have prepared me for Ireland being a different topic. I'll be out tomorrow, patience please. Thank you for changes. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:52, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

19th century

• "Attempts were made to introduce kindergarten methods into infant classes during the 1880s and 1890s. The method was treated as a separate subject within an academically focused curriculum." - methods, - what does "the method" mean then?

  Changed to plural.--Llewee (talk) 12:57, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

20th century

• "Wider society was sceptical of the changes." - what's wider society?

  relevant text on page 152 - "...parents and the wider community were ill-informed about the rationale for the content and methodologies promoted in the programme of 1900 and began to question the educational value of handwork. There were requests for a return to the all important study of Reading, Writing and Arithmetic by parents, the wider community, the Catholic Church and not least the teachers (O’Connell, 1968: 336–7)."

  page 175 - "...it would appear that parents remained unconvinced of the educational value of the reform. As early as 1901, Mr Downing, the Chief Inspector, indicated that there was a ‘grievous lack of public interest in the National Schools’. He questioned how this attitude ‘of indifference, is to be met, and their interest enlisted’ (Sixty-eighth Report of the CNEI for 1901, Appendix, Section I: 72). By 1912–1913 Miss Austin could report that while the attitude of the public towards the education of infants was of a negative nature, it was improving (Seventy-ninth Report of the CNEI for 1912–1913, Appendix, Section I: 137). In relation to the context of the time, although many parents were not educated, nevertheless, they did not seem to value handwork. For them, schoolwork involved analysis and conceptualisation with less stress on manual instruction."--Llewee (talk) 13:23, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  I think if you don't want more detail from those sources, it might help to say "parents and the wider society". --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:55, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  I've added some detail to that section which should make it clearer.--Llewee (talk) 12:15, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• "teaching in infant classes in the Irish Free State was made solely Irish-medium" - "teaching was made"

  I'm not quite sure what you mean here, it was a reform by the new Irish government.--Llewee (talk) 13:23, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  I just wondered about the verb "made" which sounds kind of weak, but I'm no native speaker of English which may explain some questions. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:05, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• "more varied teacher methods" - what are teacher methods?

  corrected to "teaching methods"--Llewee (talk) 13:23, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'll turn to the lead after sleep. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:47, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Lead

• I recommend to make Ireland an extra paragraph, matching a level-2 header.
• For my taste, the lead could be a bit longer to reflect the structure of the article. In old style, the TOC gave an overview, but now we get only the most important headers if we don't dig deeper. If you want to leave it as it as, fine. - I am pretty busy (Rohan de Saram + 3 Bach cantatas + two more who recently died + RL), so will look at your replies later, perhaps later today. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:32, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  I'm not sure about these changes. I think the pre-independence Irish history broadly mirrors England and Wales. So if you added another paragraph it would add a degree of repetition. The heading already feels quite long to me. It's 372 works which is at the upper end of the usual length for featured articles.--Llewee (talk) 13:59, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Understand. What you might do for distinction at a glance is: place "In Ireland" first in the third sentence. I am ready to support the article for featured quality. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:05, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  done--Llewee (talk) 21:18, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It Was Hot, We Stayed in the Water

Nominator(s): — PerfectSoundWhatever (t; c) 18:38, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

At the turn of the century, Phil Elverum of the Microphones released the folk album It Was Hot, We Stayed in the Water. Although frequently overlooked in the following years (overshadowed by its younger sibling), the album still received critical acclaim, going on to be "widely regarded as [an] indie pop classic" and inspire "weirdo singer/songwriter[s]" everywhere. Thanks to @Gen. Quon: for mentorship on this nomination. — PerfectSoundWhatever (t; c) 18:38, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Support I worked with PerfectSoundWhatever to punch up the article prior to this nom, and I think it's in a solid spot. The references are good, the prose (imho) reads nicely, and the topic is comprehensive without being unnecessarily exhaustive.--Gen. Quon_[Talk] 00:20, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

750h

Will review. 750h+ 14:25, 16 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

lead

• make the lead two paragraphs (per MOS:LEADLENGTH)
• The album was recorded on analogue tape ==> "The album was recorded on analog tape" (AmEng)
• The album was recorded on analog tape, and Elverum embraced the medium's technical imperfections. ==> "Recorded on analog tape, Elverum embraced the medium's technical imperfections"

background and recording

• came to increasingly trust his musical abilities. ==> "came to trust his musical abilities increasingly."
• Prior to It Was Hot's release ==> "Before It Was Hot's release" (conciseness)
• between September 24, 1999, and March 6, 2000 at Dub add a comma after "2000"
• on analogue tape, which ==> "on analog tape, which"

music and themes

• merge the first paragraph and second paragraph (single-sentence paragraphs are generally unfavorable)

release and reception

• droning, distorted guitars and organs" ==> "droning, distorted guitars[,] and organs"

That's all i got. Fine work on the article! 750h+ 08:32, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@750h+: Thank you for the review! All comments implemented. — PerfectSoundWhatever (t; c) 17:39, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support. 750h+ 00:05, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

• ""The Glow" acts as the album's climax and introduces the concept of the "glow", which was explored in more depth on 2001's The Glow Pt. 2." - this reads a tiny bit oddly, as you refer to this album in the present tense but then a later album in past tense. Maybe this could be dodged by saying "which would be explored".......?
• "as well as the extended play Window:." - is that colon part of the title, rather than a typo.....?
• Check for overlinking - drones is linked multiple times, as are K Records, Phil Elverum, the Microphones, PopMatters, and more....
• That's all I got. Great work overall! -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 16:16, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  @ChrisTheDude: Thanks for the comments! "was" changed to "would be". The colon is intentional.

  Per MOS:REPEATLINK, repeat links are allowed if in different sections. I don't think removing many of the links you mentioned would be beneficial to the reader, although I removed some. Let me know your thoughts. — PerfectSoundWhatever (t; c) 22:30, 7 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Support -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 17:17, 8 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Source and image review and spotcheck

Images seem well-placed. File:ItWasHotWeStayedInTheWaterCover.jpg has a broken source URL. Where on the source for File:Will Oldham 2017.jpg is the licence? File:The Pull - The Microphones.ogg's rationale probably needs to describe a bit more why a sample is needed. File:Eric'striplive.jpg from which one file is derived has a broken source. I don't see ALT text anywhere. Source-wise (spot-check contained therein):

Thanks for the review: will reply to each point in order. Source URL fixed; per diario.madrid.es website, "With few exceptions expressly indicated, the contents of the daily website.madrid.es are published under Creative Commons CC by 4.0 license" (google translate); file rationale expanded; can't find the Eric's trip file anywhere else, not sure what else I can do, deadlinked content doesnt necessitate removal; alt text added. — PerfectSoundWhatever (t; c) 04:20, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• #1 doesn't mention "The Pull" anywhere. It also doesn't say that "The Glow" is the climax or that it has segments.
  • It Was Hot opens with lightly-strummed acoustic guitar switching rhythmically from the right to left channel of your speaker. Don't need to cite that the opener is "The Pull".
  • leading up perfectly to the album's climax, the laid-back yet riveting charms of the Microphones' otherworldly cover of Eric's Trip's "Sand," and the epic "The Glow." [...] The latter [...] weaves several loosely connected segments together into a disjointed, yet brilliantly self-referential epic.— PerfectSoundWhatever (t; c)
• Where does #2 speak of liner notes?
  • It's kind of a WP:BLUE. The liner notes not giving individual contributions is an obvious fact and is used to introduce the following quote. — PerfectSoundWhatever (t; c)
• In #3, the article text resembles the source's "It was his first LP in a streak to revolve around an element of nature – here, of course, water — before 2001’s The Glow pt. II captured fire and air and 2003’s Mount Eerie did rock. " a bit much. Is the "B" in the sidebar supposed to source the 4 out of 5 star thing?
  • 4/5 changed to B. For the wording, honestly, I disagree. The parts that are similar are mostly the parts that are facts and have to be kept— the albums, the element names, use of the word "element". I don't see ways to reword without making the sentence less clear but open to ideas. — PerfectSoundWhatever (t; c)
    • Let's see if anyone else has input. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:36, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• #4's "because even though he collaborated with other musicians on the project throughout the years, the Microphones name is really synonymous with Elverum himself. " might resemble "Although the project has involved many collaborations with other musicians, it is considered synonymous with Elverum" too much.
  • Reworded. — PerfectSoundWhatever (t; c)
    • OKish. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:47, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• #6 Again sentence structure very similar to source. What makes this a high-quality reliable source?
  • Reworded. Considered reliable at Wikipedia:WikiProject Albums/Sources. Generally, print music magazines that have been around for a while can be trusted. It's oft-cited on wiki. [28] — PerfectSoundWhatever (t; c)
• #8 I'll assume good faith that it isn't too-closely-paraphrased or misrepresented.
• #9 Does Johnson still own the studio?
  • Yes, assuming this page is up to date. — PerfectSoundWhatever (t; c)
    • That might actually be a better source for this claim. I know, company About Us webpages will be inappropriate 99% of the time but they are ideal to specify the owners and staff of a company. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:36, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• #10 What makes this podcast a reliable source?
  • I'd argue that interviews can be treated as primary sources, making this fall under WP:ABOUTSELF and therefore reliable. Some discussion is at Wikipedia:Interviews (essay): Interviews are generally reliable for the fact that the interviewee said something — PerfectSoundWhatever (t; c)
    • My understanding is that the interviewer still has to be reliable. The world is full of fake quotes. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:47, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• #11 I'll assume good faith that it isn't too-closely-paraphrased or misrepresented.
• #12 What makes this website a reliable source?
  • Print regional newspaper. Author has written for Pitchfork, Seattle Weekly.
• #13 Archive is broken.
  • So, that's odd. I keep trying to archive this and it isn't going through. I'll remove the broken link for now. — PerfectSoundWhatever (t; c)
• #15 says "chaos", not "noise"
  • No, “Ice” starts in chaos, [...] ending in vinyl hang-up noise — PerfectSoundWhatever (t; c)
    • OK. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:47, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• #16 What makes Heather Phares a reliable source? "presents delicate, almost folky melodies wrapped up in and surrounded by waves of droning, distorted guitars" isn't there, either.
  • Allmusic is generally considered reliable for opinion. WP:ALLMUSIC. Adjusted quote to be accurate. — PerfectSoundWhatever (t; c)
• #17 where does it say that The Breeze has experimental bits?
  • #13 describes that, this source places it as an interlude. — PerfectSoundWhatever (t; c)
    • OK. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:47, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• #18 I'll assume good faith that it isn't too-closely-paraphrased or misrepresented.
• #20 I'll assume good faith that it isn't too-closely-paraphrased or misrepresented.
• #21 I'll assume good faith that it isn't too-closely-paraphrased or misrepresented, but the URL may not be working.
  • It is working: it's ProQuest, so you need to sign into TWL. — PerfectSoundWhatever (t; c)
    • That doesn't work, either. The problem seems to be that the URL isn't valid in the first place. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:47, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      • It works just fine for me. I log into TWL and click ProQuest. After it redirects, I click the link and it goes through. — PerfectSoundWhatever (t; c) 17:40, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

        OK, now it works, and it checks out. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:49, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 13:31, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I adjusted the formatting of the bullet points, hope you don't mind. — PerfectSoundWhatever (t; c) 04:20, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Jo-Jo Eumerus: Thanks for taking the time to review! All comments have received replies — PerfectSoundWhatever (t; c) 03:51, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, Jo-Jo Eumerus. Could you confirm if this is a pass on the reviews you've conducted here or are there any outstanding issues? FrB.TG (talk) 11:22, 13 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Only the question under #3 needs input. And if someone can access #18-#21 that would be great. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:52, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Algebra

Nominator(s): Phlsph7 (talk) 08:45, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Most people are familiar with algebra from their school days, where they learned to solve equations like ${\displaystyle x^{2}-3x-10=0}$. However, there is also a more abstract form of algebra, which is of particular interest to mathematicians because it provides a general framework for understanding operations on mathematical objects. Thanks to Bilorv for their in-depth GA review and to Mathwriter2718 and Chatul for their peer reviews. Phlsph7 (talk) 08:45, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

RoySmith (Support)

• As an administrative note, I noticed this page had been semi-protected since 2008. 16 years of protection seemed excessive, so I unprotected it.
• I'm still looking at this, but I do want to say that it's a joy to see a math article which is so approachable. My training is in engineering; I'm a user of math, but not a mathematician. Most math articles (Lie algebra being a good example) make my eyes glaze ever before I get past the first sentence. In this article, I'm down to Linear algebra and I'm still following every detail. This is wonderful!

  Hello RoySmith and thanks for reviewing the article! The parts on abstract and universal algebra will get a little more challenging but this is not entirely avoidable and I hope they are still accessible enough to grasp the main ideas without feeling overwhelmed. Phlsph7 (talk) 15:08, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Yeah, I'm working on Abstract algebra now. Slower going than before, but I'm still hanging in there :-) RoySmith (talk) 15:11, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• The word algebra comes from the Arabic term الجبر (al-jabr), which originally referred to the surgical treatment of bonesetting You can't just leave the reader hanging without giving at least some explanation of how we got from bonesetting to a high-school math class. You link to Traditional bone-setting, but that doesn't say anything about it. I did a bit of searching. "The Origin of the Term "Algebra" on JSTOR". jstor.org. Retrieved 6 August 2024. talks about this a bit while "Simplifying equations in Arabic algebra". sciencedirect.com. Retrieved 6 August 2024. suggests the connection may be entirely accidental. Either way, I think it's worth a sentence or two.

  That's a good idea and the sources are helpful. I put it in a footnote since there is no consensus on the exact meaning. Phlsph7 (talk) 16:01, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• x-y-pair do you need both hyphens? I would think "x-y pair".

  Done. Phlsph7 (talk) 16:07, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• An equation is linear if ... no operations like exponentiation, extraction of roots, and logarithm are applied to variables why the equivocation, i.e. "operations like"? Which operations are like those and which are unlike? My understanding is that an equation is linear if there's no power greater than 1, and things like logs and roots get included in that implicitly via their Taylor series. I think this would be better written as an explicit list of operations that are allowed, rather than a vague "stuff like this isn't allowed".

  Done: I added the general form and cut the "stuff like this isn't allowed" down to a short side remark. Phlsph7 (talk) 16:27, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• An operation[k] is associative if the order of several applications does not matter, i.e., if (a circle b) circle c ... This is the first time you use the circle notation. A little earlier when you introduce N for Natural Numbers, you do a good job of explaining what the notation means; you should do similarly here. My understanding is that it's just "an arbitrary binary operation", but that should be clarified.

  That explanation is given in a footnote, which was unfortunately positioned in a rather unintuitive place. I moved it right after the first use of the circle symbol so that the connection is clearer. Phlsph7 (talk) 08:18, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• An operation admits inverse elements... explain what it means to "admit" an element.

  I reformulated the expression to make it simpler. Phlsph7 (talk) 08:24, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• The natural numbers ... contain only positive numbers Why not "positive integers"?

  Changed. Phlsph7 (talk) 08:24, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Group theory is the subdiscipline of abstract algebra studying groups. studying -> which studies.

  Reformulated. Phlsph7 (talk) 11:00, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• I'm not sure how File:Magma to group4.svg relates to the rest of the article, or at least to the text it's near. It's near a section that talks about rings and fields, but the diagram only shows relationships for groups. Perhaps it should go with the following paragraph, where magmas et al are discussed?

  You are right, I moved it to the following paragraph. I expanded the caption to make it easier to see how it is relevant to the discussion. Phlsph7 (talk) 11:00, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• They differ from each other in regard to the types of objects they describe and the requirements that their operations fulfill To me, this is the key sentence in this whole section. To go back to my comment about my eyes glazing over when I read articles like Lie algebra, this lays out the logical foundation that helps me read " a Lie algebra (pronounced /liː/ LEE) is a vector space ... together with an operation called the Lie bracket, an alternating bilinear map ... that satisfies the Jacobi identity}} and really start to get my head around what it's saying. By analogy, I have a rudimentary knowledge of Spanish, but I can usually read something well enough to say, "OK, that's a conjugated verb. I don't recognize the verb, and I'm not sure about the tense, but at least I can get past that and keep going with the sentence, knowing I can always go back and look up the verb later". The same thing here. I don't know what an "alternating bilinear map" is, but with your explanation in mind, I can say, "OK, I don't know what that is, but at least I recognize it's describing "the requirements the operation fulfills" and I can keep making progress, knowing I can come back later and dig deeper. The point of this rambling note is just to say that I think this sentence needs more prominent placement, perhaps in the first paragraph of this section. Then you can still conclude the section by saying that you've only described the three most basic structures, and lots of other ones exist, such as magmas, etc.

  I found a way to mention this characterization in the first paragraph. I very much agree with you about the accessibility problems of several math articles. Some of them read as if they were written primarily for mathematicians, which becomes a problem specifically for the lead if an educated non-expert reader can't figure out what the topic of the article is. Phlsph7 (talk) 11:22, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

(I'm done with Major Branches. I'll pick up with History another day)

I couldn't stay away, so I finished this up today. I really can't find anything else to complain about in the rest of the article. I'll just leave you with a couple of suggestions which you can take or leave at your pleasure. One is that in Other branches of mathematics where you talk about algebraic solutions to geometric problems, you might want to mention that origami has been used to solve algebraic problems using geometry, see for example https://sites.math.washington.edu/~morrow/336_09/papers/Sheri.pdf. The other is that I don't think you can talk about Gerolamo Cardano without at least mentioning that he has been credited with inventing (or at least accepting the existance of) imaginary numbers.

I added a short side remark about origami and mentioned imaginary numbers. Thanks a lot for all the helpful suggestions! Phlsph7 (talk) 12:16, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• I'm not qualified to review this for the quality of the research or comprehensiveness, but I'm happy to give my support for general structure and "prose is engaging and of a professional standard".

Image review

• File:Muḥammad_ibn_Mūsā_al-Khwārizmī.png: the fine print on the licensing tag suggests a cropped image like this might not be covered by the copyright exception

  I removed the image since there were also other concerns about it in the comments below. Phlsph7 (talk) 08:39, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• File:Rhind_Mathematical_Papyrus.jpg needs a US tag

  I added an US tag. Phlsph7 (talk) 15:44, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• File:Francois_Viete.jpg needs a US tag, and why is this linked to the article? Ditto File:Frans_Hals_-_Portret_van_René_Descartes.jpg. Nikkimaria (talk) 05:05, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  I added US tags and removed the links. Phlsph7 (talk) 15:44, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• On the former, the version that's actually in this article is File:Francois_Viete.jpeg - the one you changed is the version that's in the article that was previously linked (apologies for the confusion). The version in this article still needs tagging and also has a dead source link. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:00, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  That's confusing indeed, thanks for catching it. I added the US tag and replaced the dead link. Phlsph7 (talk) 07:27, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  There was a similar problem with Descartes's image. To avoid future confusion, the images currently linked in the article are https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki//File:Francois_Viete.jpeg and https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki//File:Frans_Hals_-_Portret_van_Ren%C3%A9_Descartes_(cropped).jpg. Phlsph7 (talk) 07:32, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

UC

I know even less about this one than ethics, so a more sensible person would stay away -- a few comments regardless:

• Linear algebra is a closely related field investigating variables that appear in several linear equations, called a system of linear equations. It tries to discover the values that solve all equations at the same time.: "all equations in the system"? As phrased, it sounds like we mean all equations in existence.

  Good catch. Added. Phlsph7 (talk) 16:56, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Algebraic methods were first studied in the ancient period: as with ethics, I think we could do with being a little more precise. Are we happy, for instance, that the Rhind papyrus is the earliest document to concern algebra, and/or that none exists older than the 2nd millennium BCE, or that the oldest known studies are from Egypt?

  We could mention the example of the Rhind Papyrus with a date in this lead paragraph. But I'm not sure that we want to go into those details in the lead. Phlsph7 (talk) 15:45, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• A matter of taste, maybe, but I'm not sure about a 1980s postage stamp (especially as the likeness is almost certainly totally fictitious) for al-Khwarizmi, especially if we're not going to tell the reader what the image is (some will, I'm sure, assume it's a contemporary portrait). Elsewhere, we have this, which is a page (I think the first page?) from the text we're discussing -- would that be a better illustration here?

  Good idea, I replaced the image, especially since there were also some copyright concerns above. Phlsph7 (talk) 08:41, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Transliterated Arabic should be in a transliteration template.

  Done. Phlsph7 (talk) 16:56, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• A higher level of abstraction is achieved in abstract algebra: is is achieved the right phrase here -- it sounds like we're saying that abstract algebra is better than elementary algebra, when surely they're each trying to do slightly different things? "Abstract algebra uses/creates/allows a higher level of abstraction"?

  Reformulated. Phlsph7 (talk) 16:56, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Suggest linking countable noun.

  Added. Phlsph7 (talk) 16:56, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Very pedantic, but the link on " a certain type of binary operation" covers the "a", while the one on "a specific type of algebraic structure" doesn't. Usual form is to include it, I think.

  I included the "a" in the wikilink scope. Phlsph7 (talk) 16:56, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• It's a little odd that note c mentions al-Khwarizmi before we've introduced him, and when we're talking about the use of the term prior to his work. I'd move it to the end of the following sentence.

  Done. Phlsph7 (talk) 16:56, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• This changed in the course of the 19th century: why not, simply, in the nineteenth century?

  Simplified. Phlsph7 (talk) 16:56, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Note e (definition of constants vs. variables) does strictly need a citation, even though it's not exactly controversial. There are a couple of others -- I noticed l and s.

  Done, I hope I got all. I reformulated footnote l to be only about this article. Phlsph7 (talk) 16:56, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  I'm not going to kick up a huge fuss on this point, but it would be reassuring to provide a citation to show that other people do this too (in other words, that it's not our own idea). UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 17:03, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Done. Phlsph7 (talk) 08:01, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• The lowercase letters a and b are usually used for constants and coefficients. For example, the expression 5x+3 is an algebraic expression created by multiplying the number 5 with the variable and adding the number 3 to the result. I don't really understand the use of "for example" here -- I think we need to introduce this as a new thought.

  Done. Phlsph7 (talk) 08:04, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• An equation is a statement formed by comparing two expressions with an equals sign ... Inequations are formed with symbols like the less-than sign (), the greater-than sign (), and the inequality sign (). : would it be better to explain this in terms of meaning rather than symbology? After all, the statement "the square on the hypotenuse is equal to the squares on the other two sides" was as much as passed for an equation for a large part of mathematical history, and we can imagine some other form of notation that expresses equations with a different sign or none at all.

  I reformulated it to take a middle path, covering both meaning and symbols. Phlsph7 (talk) 08:47, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Some algebraic expressions take the form of statements that relate two expressions to one another: two or more?

  Two is the typical format in algebra. Our formulation leaves it open whether there are other alternatives. Phlsph7 (talk) 08:47, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  It does. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 14:40, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• The main goal of elementary algebra is to determine for which values a statement is true: more idiomatic, to me, as "the values for which a statement is true".

  Reformulated. Phlsph7 (talk) 08:47, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• In a similar way, if one knows the exact value of one variable one may be able to use it to determine the value of other variables.: do we lose anything important by cutting exact here?

  Not really. Removed. Phlsph7 (talk) 08:47, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• It bothers me that the graph example uses the wrong symbol for subtraction (the dash is too short), but that's not really your problem. Do consider, however, MOS:COLOUR in describing the line as red (not everyone can see its colour) -- perhaps also add that it slopes upwards to the right? I appreciate that there's only one line that graph-literate readers could identify, but we're rightly pitching this article to complete beginners, and it's not impossible that some won't know what the axes are.

  I updated the image file to use a longer symbol for subtraction (I had to close and re-open my browser for it show the new version). I also followed your suggestion to identify the line not only by color but also by slope. Phlsph7 (talk) 08:47, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• This means that no variables are multiplied with each other and no powers of variables occur.: or that no variables are raised to a power greater than one?

  Reformulated. Phlsph7 (talk) 08:47, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• A system of equations that has solutions is called consistent. This is the case if the equations do not contradict each other: better as A system of equations that has solutions is called consistent if the equations do not contradict each other? At the moment, we state something, and then immediately seem to state that it isn't (always) true. If I've got it right, we're saying that it's impossible to be inconsistent and to have any solutions, so it might even be clearer to state that first -- something like If two or more equations contradict each other, the system of equations is called inconsistent and has no solutions. For example, the equations ${\displaystyle x_{1}-3x_{2}=0}$ and ${\displaystyle x_{1}-3x_{2}=7}$ contradict each other since no values of ${\displaystyle x_{1}}$ and ${\displaystyle x_{2}}$ exist that solve both equations at the same time. If two or more equations contradict each other, the system of equations is inconsistent and has no solutions. A system of equations that has solutions is called consistent.

  I implemented a similar reformulation. Phlsph7 (talk) 12:32, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• LU Decomposition: decap decomposition, and consider spelling out lower–upper?

  Decap done. I kept the "LU" since this is the more common way of referring to it and also the name of our article. Phlsph7 (talk) 12:32, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• On a geometric level, systems of equations can be interpreted as geometric figures: do we need the first bit? Seems repetitive, given the end of the sentence.

  Removed. Phlsph7 (talk) 12:32, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• For systems with two variables, each equation represents a line in two-dimensional space. The point where the two lines intersect is the solution: can we briefly explain why this is so?

  I added a short explanation. Phlsph7 (talk) 12:32, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• binary operations, which take two objects as input: as inputs, surely, or as their input?

  Done. Phlsph7 (talk) 12:32, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• The date of the Rhind papyrus -- can we give an idea of the "error bars" on the debate -- does everyone agree it's C17th, for example, or do some people think it's much later, or a modern forgery?

  Done. Phlsph7 (talk) 12:32, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• These developments happened in the ancient period in diverse regions such as Babylonia, Egypt, Greece, China, and India: our phrasing here implies that this list isn't exhaustive. Is that what's intended?

  Simplified. Phlsph7 (talk) 12:32, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• In ancient China: I know the date of The Nine Chapters on the Mathematical Art isn't totally straightforward, but we should give it one anyway, if the Greeks get them.

  Added. Phlsph7 (talk) 12:32, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• On Vector 22, I have quite a lot of sandwiching between the Al-Khwarizmi manuscript and the double portrait. I realise I've earlier suggested using it in place of Al-Khwarizmi's face, so that would solve this problem as well.

  Done. Phlsph7 (talk) 08:42, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• We get a lot of people described as "the nationality mathematician": you could consider dropping mathematician in these contexts, and take it as read that we're generally talking about mathematicians (see User:Caeciliusinhorto/Context considered harmful for an argument for this). Very much a matter of taste, though.
• the German mathematicians ... Emil Artin -- he was Austrian.

  Done. Phlsph7 (talk) 12:32, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• to solve puzzles like Sudoku and Rubik's cube: we generally speak of a Rubik's cube, so I'd pluralise it here (especially as there are different variations on the form).

  Done. Phlsph7 (talk) 12:32, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Algebra education mostly focuses on elementary algebra, which is one of the reasons why it is also called school algebra. It is usually not introduced -- the series of its may not be totally clear -- we seem to be swapping antecedent here (the first one is elementary algebra, the second algebra education).

  I replaced the first "it". Phlsph7 (talk) 12:32, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• unlike arithmetic calculations, algebraic expressions often cannot be directly solved: you might add an easily in here -- you can solve most school problems by trial and error, or simply by spotting the answer, but it's much easier to do it "properly".

  I guess it depends on whether we read "often cannot" as "in many cases, there is no logical possibility" or as "in many cases, there is no reliable way to do so". I would add it but "easily directly solved" sounds a bit odd. Phlsph7 (talk) 12:32, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  To me, often cannot easily be directly solved is good English -- or perhaps "are often difficult to solve directly"? UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 14:06, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Done. Phlsph7 (talk) 16:03, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• On the education side -- how worldwide is the use of balance scales? We've cited a single school textbook here, which to me is verging on WP:PRIMARY -- I'd be more comfortable with a survey article on the use of the technique in (American?) mathematical education. I've never seen it in UK schools, outside isolated word problems -- function machines are more common over here as a basic introduction to the ideas of algebra. I'd be interested to know how things are done in places like Shanghai and Hong Kong, which generally seem to outperform both systems, at least as far as concerns producing students who can solve school-algebra problems.

  I added two more sources that that examine some research on this approach. Phlsph7 (talk) 12:32, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Both of these sources (particularly Kaput 2018) consider balance scales as one tool among many -- Kieran talks about other manipulatives (cups and sticks, for example), and Kaput talks about a whole bunch of visualisations (including function machines), particularly those which they feel to be appropriate for use with a computer. I think the discussion here needs to be broadened to reflect those sources -- there's a good point to be made that teaching algebra often involves using conceptual tools, often ones with which students can interact physically, before introducing abstract concepts such as variables, but we shouldn't frame that entirely through one of those tools (balance scales). There's an interesting booklet for teachers here, with extensive bibliography, which recommends the use of representations but also acknowledges that the evidence for their effectiveness (like everything else in education!) is minimal. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 14:13, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  I added some additional context to the discussion by mentioning manipulatives and visualizations. Phlsph7 (talk) 15:41, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  I've made a small and slightly pedantic fix (computers aren't visualisations), but I think this works well now. Feel free to counter-tweak. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 16:37, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Looks good. Phlsph7 (talk) 16:48, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Can I echo Roy's praise for the clarity and approachability of this article -- I'll admit that I skipped fairly lightly over the abstract algebra section, but the rest was absolutely clear and manageable, and I suspect I'm going to be one of the least qualified mathematicians to review this here. Excellent work once again. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 06:55, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for yet another detailed review and for taking a leap to provide a non-expert opinion on the article! Given that Wikipedia is a general encyclopedia, this is also an important perspective to consider. Phlsph7 (talk) 08:55, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support: I am hugely impressed by the writing and clarity here, and while I am not qualified to vouch for the mathematics, everything within my expertise looks excellent. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 16:38, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the support! Phlsph7 (talk) 08:39, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Edwininlondon

Although I am neither an expert in the field nor a native speaker, I have a few comments. Overall I very much appreciated the clarity and structure.

• Algebra is the branch of mathematics that studies algebraic structures --> while I like overall how clearly topics are being described, there are a few cases where I get a sense of recursion. Is there a way to avoid using algebraic in the definition of algebra?

  You are right that this sounds circular, but I'm not sure that there is a good alternative. There was already a detailed discussion on this point in the GA review that resulted in consensus on the current formulation. It sounds circular but it isn't circular since the technical term "algebraic structure" is defined without reference to algebra. Phlsph7 (talk) 16:05, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• called a system of linear equations. --> why italics?

  This is per MOS:WORDSASWORDS since we talk about the term "system of linear equations". Phlsph7 (talk) 16:05, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• that appear in several linear equations --> a definition of linear would be good

  We could add a footnote but I'm not sure that we should get into this in the lead section. The first paragraph of the subsection "Linear algebra" provides a definition. Phlsph7 (talk) 16:05, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Algebra is the branch of mathematics that studies algebraic operations[a] and algebraic structures --> too recursive for me. A question: do I understand it correctly that algebraic structures include lgebraic operations? If so, do we really need to say "algebraic operations[a] and algebraic structures" or can it just use structures?

  You are right, the operations are already included. I found a way to reformulate the sentence to take this into account while cutting down on the repetitive language. Phlsph7 (talk) 16:05, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Arithmetic studies arithmetic operations --> too recursive for me

  I removed the term "arithmetic" since we already list the main operations. Phlsph7 (talk) 16:05, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• first use of axiom in body is not linked. Perhaps do this: together with their underlying axioms, the laws they follow.

  Done. Phlsph7 (talk) 16:05, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• The natural numbers, by contrast, do not form a group --> should the + operation not be mentioned?

  Correct, I added it. Phlsph7 (talk) 16:35, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• One of the earliest documents is the Rhind Papyrus --> One of the earliest mathematical documents is the Rhind Papyrus

  I implemented the idea in a slightly different way. Phlsph7 (talk) 16:35, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• several generations between the 10th century BCE and the 2nd century CE --> I don't think 1000+ years can be described as several generations

  Agreed, this is an understatement. I adjusted the text. Phlsph7 (talk) 16:35, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Thābit ibn Qurra in the 9th century --> I assume there is no more accurate estimate? Since 825 CE is also the 9th century, perhaps something like "also in the 9th century"?

  I think he made contributions in several works so we would have to list several dates. I added the "also". Phlsph7 (talk) 16:35, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• In 1247, the Chinese mathematician Qin Jiushao --> how come this is not with the other China info?

  For chronological reasons: roughly speaking, we have two paragraphs on ancient history, two paragraphs on post-classical history, and then modern history. It's not ideal but putting him into the ancient paragraph is not ideal either. Phlsph7 (talk) 16:35, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's all I could see. Nice work. Edwininlondon (talk) 19:50, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Edwininlondon, I appreciate you taking the time to review this article! Phlsph7 (talk) 16:05, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A bit more:

• x y c – variables/constants --> would be better to make 2 lines and separate the variables from the constant

  Done. Phlsph7 (talk) 11:12, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• forgive me if this has been agreed already, but is Encyclopedia of Mathematics as a wiki a reliable source?

  Thanks for raising this point. The website use wiki software to display the pages but it is not user-generated. The articles were originally published in book form by Kluwer Academic Publishers/Springer and only later made accessible online. We could cite the original books but the online version is much better accessible for readers. Phlsph7 (talk) 11:12, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• inconsistent date formats. Example: "from the original on 4 October 2009. Retrieved 23 October 2023" but also "from the original on 2024-01-12. Retrieved 2024-01-13"

  Done. I hope the script got all. Phlsph7 (talk) 11:41, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Walz, Guido (2016) needs a trans-title

  Added. Phlsph7 (talk) 11:41, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Spotcheck: 37 51 84 85 87 118 all check out
• 80 does indeed give 1550 but somehow I feel this source is not right to make the claim "The exact date is disputed and some historians suggest a later date around 1550 BCE" A more scientific source would be better.

  I replaced it with a better source. Phlsph7 (talk) 11:41, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• 87 is correct but the link unfortunately does not put me on page 31, nor is that page accessible to me. Perhaps this link is better: https://nap.nationalacademies.org/read/11540/chapter/4

  I fixed the link, the page preview works for me now. Phlsph7 (talk) 11:41, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's it for this final round. Edwininlondon (talk) 07:16, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your comments. I hope I was able to address the main concerns. Phlsph7 (talk) 11:41, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. Almost all fine, except that there still is a lingering sadness in me regarding the opening sentence with its circularity. I don't think the argument that the technical term "algebraic structure" is defined without reference to algebra is particularly strong. But I lack the expertise to provide something useful. Perhaps it is something like "Algebra is ..., known as algebraic structures, ... I was thinking perhaps the part "manipulation of statements within those structures" can be dropped, as that surely is encompassed by the word "studies". But maybe the phrase "manipulation of statements" is rather critical, as it conveys the essence of the field. Sorry, I can't express what is better. Edwininlondon (talk) 12:31, 16 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The current first sentence is: "Algebra is the branch of mathematics that studies algebraic structures and the manipulation of statements within those structures". This definition is not circular since "algebraic structure" has a precise definition that does not refer to the field of algebra. So it's not a problem with the definition itself but only with the linguistic level since it is preferable to avoid repeating the words algebra-algebraic.

I'll brainstorm some alternatives:

1. Algebra is the branch of mathematics that studies abstract structures and the manipulation of statements within those structures

   The expression "abstract structures" does not have a precise definition and could mean all kinds of things, so this formulation sacrifices information for linguistic improvements

2. Algebra is the branch of mathematics that studies operations from a Cartesian power of a set into that set and the manipulation of statements using these operations.

   This is precise but most readers will have difficulties figuring out what "operations from a Cartesian power of a set into that set" means. Especially for the first sentence, this is not a good idea.

3. Algebra is the branch of mathematics that studies operations on mathematical objects and the manipulation of statements using these operations.

   This is a less detailed and more accessible version of (2). Instead of repeating algebra-algebraic, this formulation repeats mathematics-mathematical.

When compared to these alternatives, I prefer the current version, but I'm also open to other ideas. Option 3 would be my second choice.

Roughly speaking, the first clause on algebraic structures covers abstract/universal algebra while the second clause on the manipulation of statements covers elementary/linear algebra. If we removed the second clause, we would focus only on the more abstract side of algebra. Phlsph7 (talk) 07:25, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for generating alternatives, much appreciated. I'd be curious to hear what other FAC reviewers think. In my mini-sample of 2 non-maths people, both raised an eyebrow at "algebraic". Alternative 2 is too technical indeed. Number 3 would be my preferred option. Edwininlondon (talk) 12:24, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Any mileage in "certain abstract structures, known as algebraic structures", or similar? UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 13:47, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

4. Algebra is the branch of mathematics that studies certain abstract structures, known as algebraic structures, and the manipulation of statements within those structures.

5. Algebra is the branch of mathematics that studies certain abstract systems, known as algebraic structures, and the manipulation of statements within those systems.

6. Algebra is the branch of mathematics that studies certain abstract frameworks, known as algebraic structures, and the manipulation of statements within those frameworks.

All of them are a little bit longer than the original. Maybe they could work without the word "certain". In (4), the repeated use of the word "structure" might be a problem. Of these three, (5) would be my preference. Phlsph7 (talk) 15:31, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I like (5). Edwininlondon (talk) 08:50, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

5 makes sense to me as a layman, though obviously I can't speak for its technical accuracy/completeness. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 16:15, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I implemented the suggestion. It's a little longer but should be more accessible. Phlsph7 (talk) 07:40, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I Support on prose. My uni algebra is too long ago to fully vouch for the technical aspect, but it looks very convincing. A nice piece of work. Edwininlondon (talk) 17:00, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your helpful comments and the support! Phlsph7 (talk) 07:17, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Mathwriter2718's comments

I am here in my capacity as a mathematical expert. My goal is to review the mathematical content of this page and make sure it is accurate and clear. Others have already done more comprehensive reviews of other aspects.

I think this article is excellent. I have a few extremely minor concerns and one bigger concern, but none will take so long to address. For the big concern, Let us look at the descriptions of linear algebra, abstract algebra, and universal algebra in this article.

"Linear algebra is a closely related field investigating variables that appear in several linear equations, called a system of linear equations. It tries to discover the values that solve all equations in the system at the same time. Abstract algebra studies algebraic structures, which consist of a set of mathematical objects together with one or several binary operations defined on that set. It is a generalization of elementary and linear algebra since it allows mathematical objects other than numbers and non-arithmetic operations. ... Universal algebra constitutes a further level of generalization that is not limited to binary operations and investigates more abstract patterns that characterize different classes of algebraic structures."

"Abstract algebra usually restricts itself to binary operations that take any two objects from the underlying set as inputs and map them to another object from this set as output."

"Universal algebra is the study of algebraic structures in general. It is a generalization of abstract algebra that is not limited to binary operations and allows operations with more inputs as well, such as ternary operations."

I think many mathematicians define linear algebra as the study of finite-dimensional vector spaces. The description of linear algebra in this article is pretty different on the surface, but still a valid POV, and not actually as different as it may appear. Anyway, it would be nice to put in somewhere that the algebraic structure linear algebra studies is a finite-dimensional vector space. The bigger issue is that everyone thinks vector spaces are under the domain of abstract algebra, and scalar multiplication is not a binary operation on a single set, so the descriptions of abstract algebra and universal algebra are wrong. Even if you expanded abstract algebra to be about binary operations where the input sets can be different, this would still not be how mathematicians view abstract algebra.

I think the way mathematicians view abstract algebra vs universal algebra vs linear algebra is like this:

Abstract algebra is the broad field of math that studies algebraic structures.

Linear algebra is the study of a specific algebraic structure that is important in the study of systems of linear equations: finite-dimensional vector spaces.

Universal algebra is the study of a specific algebraic structure called a universal algebra. This structure is kind of unusual in that its instantiations include many of the most important algebraic structures.

I think we should just remove the offending content and not change things too much otherwise. I am merely arguing that we should avoid explicitly limiting "abstract algebra" to binary operations on a single set, and that we should avoid thinking of universal algebra as a generalization of abstract algebra, but rather as the study of a structure that encases many of the most important algebraic structures. If there are no objections, I can make these changes.

@Mathwriter2718: Thanks for taking a look at the article! I followed your suggestion to mention that linear algebra can also be defined in terms of vector spaces. I included the reference to linear maps in the definition so it is more focused. I put it in a footnote since I have the impression that it is difficult to understand for the average reader but we could try to work it into the main text if that is preferable.

Concerning abstract algebra, one problem is that some sources restrict abstract algebra to binary operations. In order to avoid taking sides, I softened this claim by saying that it is "primarily interested in binary operations".

The relation between abstract and universal algebra is tricky. Pratt 2022 says "Universal algebra is the next level of abstraction after abstract algebra". Other sources also emphasize the general nature of universal algebra but don't make the relation to abstract algebra this explicit. I reformulated some passages to emphasize the generality. I tried not to imply that universal algebra is distinct from and more general than abstract algebra. I also added a footnote covering the alternative definition of universal algebra as the study of universal algebras, as you suggested.

I hope these changes are roughly what you had in mind. Phlsph7 (talk) 12:25, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Seems like a good compromise to me. Thanks. Mathwriter2718 (talk) 12:44, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Less important comments:

• Consider replacing

  For example, the expression 7x − 3x can be replaced with the expression 4x.

with

For example, the expression 7x − 3x can be replaced with the expression 4x, since 7x - 3x = (7-3)x = 4x by the distributive property.

Done. Phlsph7 (talk) 12:25, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Consider replacing

  This technique is common for polynomials to determine for which values the expression is zero.

with

This technique is commonly used to determine the values of a polynomial that evaluate to zero.

Done. Phlsph7 (talk) 12:25, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• The article uses the term "x-y pair". I don't think I've seen this before, but it perhaps isn't wrong? I would expect to see (x,y)-pair or (x,y) pair, I think.

  Done. Phlsph7 (talk) 12:25, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Maybe it could be good to put in some image of a symmetry group when the article is talking about symmetry groups, though I didn't find an image on dihedral group that really stood out to me.

Mathwriter2718 (talk) 13:20, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

After a short look, I didn't find a good image either. This part of the article already has several images so we might have to remove an image to create space for a new one. Phlsph7 (talk) 12:25, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Mathwriter2718: I appreciate the insightful suggestions. I hope I was able to address your main concerns. I was wondering whether, from the mathematical perspective, you would support the nomination. Phlsph7 (talk) 07:33, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Phlsph7 I hope that I can read up more on universal algebra before giving an answer. This might take a bit. Mathwriter2718 (talk) 14:30, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for taking another look at the subsection "Universal algebra". The main challenge for this subsection is to make the abstract topic accessible to the reader without oversimplifying too much. Phlsph7 (talk) 08:06, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Phlsph7, is this ready for the reviewer to take another look at yet? Gog the Mild (talk) 19:01, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Gog the Mild: The article is ready and, as far as I'm aware, there are no outstanding comments to be addressed. Mathwriter2718 said that they needed more time to familiarize themselves with the literature before wrapping up the review.

@Mathwriter2718: Just checking to see how things are progressing. Please let me know if I can be of any assistance. Phlsph7 (talk) 07:54, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Phlsph7 I am very sorry for not getting back to you sooner!! I have recently become extremely busy and I have had trouble finding the time to review the mathematical literature and decide whether I support/don't support this nomination. I will give myself a deadline of tonight to finish this and if I can't get it done by then, then I think I can declare I just don't have enough time right now to do this. Mathwriter2718 (talk) 14:17, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Mathwriter2718: Thanks for taking another look! If turns out that you don't have the time to review the part on universal algebra, you could explicitly exclude that part from your assessment. Phlsph7 (talk) 16:33, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Phlsph7 @Gog the Mild I have finished my review of the mathematical content of the article except for the "Universal algebra" section and I support the FA nomination based on the content that I have reviewed. Maybe there is someone else who can review that section but I am not sure if there are many Wikipedians familiar with universal algebra. Looking at the history of the page Universal algebra one can maybe find people who are familiar with the subject. @Jochen Burghardt has a decent number of edits there. Personally, I'm just not qualified to offer my perspective on that area and I am too busy at this time to really become familiar in the way I would like to before offering an opinion. I'm sorry I couldn't be of more assistance here. Mathwriter2718 (talk) 03:14, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the support and all the time and energy you have poured into this review! Phlsph7 (talk) 07:32, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Source review

So, this is one of these broad topics where it's hard to tell for an outsider whether the coverage is representative. So I'll qualify that I am not reviewing that aspect of a source review. I wonder why some page numbers have Google Books links and others don't. Google Books serves up different results to different people, so I am not sure that these links are very helpful at all. By the same principle, I don't think that Google Books needs archive links. Springer is referred to by various names, is there a need for consistency? Are Jones & Bartlett Publishers and Linus Learning a prominent publisher? What makes "Edwards, C. H. (2012). Advanced Calculus of Several Variables. Courier Corporation. ISBN 978-0-486-13195-5. Archived from the original on January 24, 2024. Retrieved January 24, 2024." a high-quality reliable source? "Majewski, Miroslaw (2004). MuPAD Pro Computing Essentials (2 ed.). Springer. ISBN 978-3-540-21943-9.", "Nicholson, W. Keith (2012). Introduction to Abstract Algebra. John Wiley & Sons. ISBN 978-1-118-13535-8." and "Mishra, Sanjay (2016). Fundamentals of Mathematics: Algebra. Pearson India. ISBN 978-93-325-5891-5." don't have the retrieval dates where other sources have, although with books and papers I don't think we need these at all. Otherwise we are using prominent publishers and series, although I notice the overrepresentation of Western sources. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:21, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Jo-Jo Eumerus, thanks for taking care of the source review! I usually add links to google book pages that offer page previews if I'm aware of them. For some books, google books does not offer previews, in which case I can't add links. It could depend on the reader's geo-region whether a page preview is available. If it is available, it is a convenient way for the reader to verify the material without needing to buy the book. I removed all the google book webarchive links. The problem is that IABot adds them automatically when it runs, so they could be back soon. I implemented a more consistent approach for referring to Springer. I replaced the sources by Jones & Bartlett Publishers, Linus Learning, and Edwards 2012 with alternatives. I added an access/retrieval date for Nicholson 2012. Majewski 2004 and Mishra 2016 don't have access dates because they have no links to a website. The overrepresentation of sources by Western publishers in the article reflects the general prevalence of Western publishers regarding high-quality English-language sources on the subject.

Phlsph7 (talk) 17:02, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Seems to me like we need some discussion somewhere about IAbot adding archives to Google Books. But not an issue for a FAC I figure. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 06:18, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Right, this has already come up several times. I started a discussion at Wikipedia_talk:Featured_article_candidates#Google_Books_web_archive_links_and_IABot. Phlsph7 (talk) 08:04, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Hi Jo-Jo, sorry to drag you back to this again. Would I be correct in understanding this to be a source review pass so far as FAC is concerned? Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 15:26, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Yes, but note the caveats "So I'll qualify that I am not reviewing [the thorough and representative survey] aspect of a source review." and "overrepresentation of Western sources." I am not sure that limiting oneself to English sources justifies incompleteness, although we can't expect editors to be polylingual. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 06:26, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

D.Lazard

I did not follow the changes of the article done by Phlsph7 since January 2023. My first impression is that the new vesion is much better. Nevertheless it is too much biased toward educational aspects of algebra. I'll discuss this in several items in order to makes improvements easier.

• Abstract algebra: Presently, this phrase is almost never used outside mathematical education. This must be said in the article, and in many occurences of this phrase the word "algebraabstract" must be removed.

  Hello D.Lazard and thanks for taking a look at the article! I found a source that talks about how the term "abstract algebra" is used in the educational context and added a sentence on it. I'm not sure if this is what you had in mind. If you know of a source that spells your point out in more detail, I would be happy to have a look at it. Most of the sources that I'm aware of define abstract algebra as a field of inquiry rather than a math course in undergraduate studies.

  Clearly, I have no source saying "I do not use abstract algebra because this is reserved to educational context", but, AFAIK, there is no recent sources (say, not older than 50 years) that use "abstract algebra" outside educational or historical context. D.Lazard (talk) 16:59, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  You seem to suggest the addition of a sentence like the following: "In the last 50 years, the term abstract algebra has only been used in educational and historical contexts." I'm not opposed in principle, but we would need to figure out how to source this sentence and how to deal with possible counterexamples like [29], [30] and [31]. Phlsph7 (talk) 08:26, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  I didn't get what you mean by in many occurences of this phrase the word "algebra" must be removed. Phlsph7 (talk) 16:18, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Of course, it was a typo, I meant "abstract". D.Lazard (talk) 16:59, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Ah, I see. Depending on the context, the term algebra is sometimes used to refer only to elementary algebra or only to abstract algebra, as explained in our section "Definition and etymology". I think it's in the best interest of the readers to use the more specific names to avoid confusing them. Phlsph7 (talk) 08:31, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Sorry, reading the article again, I do not find any improper use of "abstract algebra", except in the last paragraph of section "abstract algebra", which is controversial for other reasons, for example, by asserting implicitly that, say, the the study of groups of geometric transformations belong to abstract algebra. D.Lazard (talk) 10:21, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Done. Phlsph7 (talk) 15:39, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Major branches: Presently, this section has only 4 subsections: "Elementary algebra", "Linear algebra", "Abstract algebra", "Universal algebra".
  For defining branches of algebra, the most authoritative source is the Mathematics Subject Classification. The previous version of the article referred to this source by writing: Today algebra includes section 08-General algebraic systems, 12-Field theory and polynomials, 13-Commutative algebra, 15-Linear and multilinear algebra; matrix theory, 16-Associative rings and algebras, 17-Nonassociative rings and algebras, 18-Category theory; homological algebra, 19-K-theory and 20-Group theory. Algebra is also used extensively in 11-Number theory and 14-Algebraic geometry.
  Three of the four major areas belong to 08-General algebraic systems, and very little is said about the seven other major areas of algebra. So, without sections on other major branches of areas, this article fails the second criterion of featured articles: comprehensive: it neglects no major facts or details and places the subject in context

  As far as I'm aware, the Mathematics Subject Classification does not provide a general definition or subdivision of algebra. The sentences you cited from an older version of our article were unsourced. If you know of a source that supports this subdivision of algebra, I would be interested to read it. The sources that I'm aware of do not divide it this way, but there may be different ways of dividing it.

  Most of the categories you mention are covered in one form or another in our article. For example, polynomials are covered by the section "Linear algebra", algebraic geometry and algebraic number theory are mentioned in the subsection "Other branches of mathematics", and the different rings, fields, and algebras would be belong to the section "Abstract algebra". The last paragraph of the section "Abstract algebra" gives various examples of different algebraic structures. We could add more if you feel that this would help comprehensiveness, but we probably shouldn't overdo it. Phlsph7 (talk) 16:48, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  As Mathematics Subject Classification was elaborated by the whole mathematical community, this is a reliable source for subdivision of mathematics; it is undoubtly much more reliable than any text written by a single author. So, it is wrong to say that the old paragraph was unsourced. Per WP:BLUE, no source is needed for asserting that field theory, polynomial theory, commutative algebra, associative rings and algebras, nonassociative rings, homological algebra, and group theory are branches of algebra. Nevertheless it suffices to open any textbook having these subjects in their title to see that these subjects belong to algebra. So, the present state of the article breaks policy WP:NPOV by giving much less place to all these subjects together than to universal algebra, a subject that is not really used outside itself (it has been replaced by the much more powerful category theory). D.Lazard (talk) 21:31, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  I have my doubts that this is a WP:BLUE-statement. The Mathematics Subject Classification is a reliable source but does not support the claim about how algebra is divided into the main branches. Of the items you mentioned, our article provides a detailed explanation of the basics of groups, rings, fields, and polynomials. It also mentions some of the more specific algebras without going too much into detail. I think it's not the responsibility of this type of overview article to go into the more advanced details of these subjects.

  Universal algebra is usually given more weight in reliable sources than the other areas you mentioned so I don't think this violates WP:NPOV. For example, Pratt 2022 discusses it as one of the main branches, without characterizing any of the other areas you mentioned as main branches. Bronshtein's "Handbook of Mathematics" paints a similar picture: in its division "5 Algebra and Discrete Mathematics", universal algebra gets the main subdivision "5.3 Univeral algebra" but none of the other fields you mention get main subdivisions. But you are right that universal algebra is not as important as abstract algebra. I could try to reduce the length of the section "Univeral algebra" by boiling it down to 2 paragraphs. Would that address your main concern? I was thinking about adding a few sentences on homological algebra but this topic could be quite challenging to the average reader. Phlsph7 (talk) 15:30, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  The most influential graduate textbooks in algebra are probably Van der Waerden's Algebra and Lang's Algebra. They are probably the most reliable sources for this subjects. In particular, Lang has more than 10,000 citations. It is unbelievable that none of these books is cited in our article. Clearly, they do not contain everything that belongs to algebra, but they are certainly reliable sources for the important branches of algebra. I have not these books under hand, but the phrases abstract algebra and universal algebra do not appear in the table of content of Lang nor in the list of Van der Waerden's chapters. On the other hand, all the branches that are cited above appear, at least in Lang (which is more recent). So, the fact that the above cited branches belong to algebra is supported by reliable sources. They support also the fact that "abstact algebra" is not used outside educational level, and that universal algebra is not a major branch of algebra (Lang knew universal algebra, since he is an author of an article on this subject, and did not included the subkect in his book). D.Lazard (talk) 18:06, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Sections "Abstract algebra" and "Universal algebra" are both devoted to the general study of algebraic structures. So, there must be merged and shortened for making place to (presently lacking) other major branches that are much more active.
• Theorems: The article is misleading by suggesting wrongly that there are no important theorems in algebra. As an example, one thinks immediatly of Feit–Thompson theorem, which is the theorem of algebra with the longest proof (the complete proof of Wiles' proof of Fermat's Last Theorem is probably longer, and contains much algebra, but is not limited to this area of mathematics). Other examples are Hilbert's basis theorem, Hilbert's Nullstellensatz and Hilbert's syzygy theorem. Beside their historical importance, they are interesting here, since they predate "abstract algebra", and are therefore difficult to classify in this branch of algebra.

  I responded to this and the two preceding points on the article talk page, which is probably a better place for this type of discussion. Phlsph7 (talk) 07:55, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@D.Lazard It seems to me like your overarching concern is that the article Algebra should be about exactly the thing mathematicians call "algebra". I think it makes more sense for this particular article to be a middle ground between what most people call algebra and what mathematicians mean when they say algebra. For example, you want to remove the use of the word "abstract algebra". Indeed, mathematicians don't use this word to talk to each other about research-level mathematics. But I think it makes a lot of sense to use this word for contrast with elementary algebra. The way I interpret the current state of this article, everything under the mathematics subject classification for algebra falls under what this article calls "abstract algebra".

I probably support your view that this article should be closer to the viewpoint of a modern mathematician than it is now, but I want to be very careful to not transform the intended readership of this article away from the most lay audience possible by going into things like K-theory and nonassociative rings that are certainly not necessary for a comprehensive description of "Algebra" for the lay reader. Math Wikipedia already has a bad reputation for being too technical and obscure, and only a vanishing fraction of those who search for the article Algebra on Wikipedia will have much background. Mathwriter2718 (talk) 00:48, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The purpose of the Mathematics Subject Classification is to be used by journals to organize research. I don't we should expect that purpose to align very well with what subfields an expository article about "Algebra" should cover. Mathwriter2718 (talk) 00:54, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The purpose of an encyclopedic article is not to adhere to the conception of some readers ("what most people call algebra"); it is to inform the reader on the whole subject implied by the title. Here, this includes "abstract algebra", and also all the content of the most influencal books entitled Algebra (in particular, Serge Lang's and Van der Waerden's ones). Since no way is given to the reader to accede to information on most of the content of these books, the article is far to respect the policy WP:NPOV, and thus should never to have been labeled as a WP:GA.

I never asked to not speak of "abstract algebra", but it must be given its WP:due weight, which is the name of the part of algebra that is taught at some level of mathematical education. D.Lazard (talk) 10:52, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I tend to agree with Mathwriter2718 here. Writing an article that respects both the mathematicians' definition of algebra and the more vernacular meaning is an intrinsically difficult problem. Having no representation for the latter meaning would itself be a violation of NPOV, and would make the page far less useful for a large and important audience. Moreover, I agree that the Mathematics Subject Classification doesn't necessarily align very well with what subfields an expository article about "Algebra" should cover. The topics that it lists are important enough to include, but it doesn't dictate the organization of an encyclopedia article. XOR'easter (talk) 16:05, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have opened a related discussion at WT:WPM#Should Algebra be reverted to the version of 21 Decembre 2023?. D.Lazard (talk) 15:45, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

D. Eppstein

A drive-by comment: the claim in the universal algebra section that "Two algebraic structures that share all their identities are said to belong to the same variety." and the examples that follow this claim do not match my understanding of the subject. As I understand it, and as Variety (universal algebra) describes, a variety is defined by any set of identities, and an algebra belongs to a variety when it obeys all those identities (even when it might also obey others). So a single algebra might belong to many varieties, not merely the single variety defined by all its identities. Two algebras might belong to one variety, and differ in their membership of another variety. In this same section, "the ring of polynomials" is ambiguous: polynomials over what domain? Footnote [74] appears off-topic; neither linked reference page is about membership of integers, polynomial rings, or rationals in varieties. (One of the two pages uses "variety" in a different sense, from algebraic geometry rather than universal algebra.) The claim that the integers and ring of polynomials (over whatever domain) obey the same identities is unsourced, and may be false depending on the domain of the polynomials. For instance polynomials over GF(2) obey the identity x+x=0 that the integers do not.

Hello David Eppstein and thanks for your comments! I had a look at a few sources and I think your interpretation of varieties is correct. I reformulated the passage to avoid the misleading formulation used earlier. I added the sources I consulted and replaced the example with another. It's a simplified version of the one found in Rosen 2012. If this is still controversial, we could either use the full example from Rosen 2012 or leave it out. Phlsph7 (talk) 11:45, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There another issue in this section: it is not said explicitely that not all algebraic structure belong to a variety. For example, fields do not form a variety since division by zero is not defined. D.Lazard (talk) 14:08, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I added a footnote to mention this. Phlsph7 (talk) 08:10, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

XOR'easter

A drive-by comment: this article is well on its way to being very nice indeed. I am somewhat dissatisfied by the "Applications" section. Despite a recent reorganization for the better, it still suffers from the problem that the applications of algebra are so staggeringly vast that any selection of examples will look weird and arbitrary. Right now, it reads rather like, "Linear algebra is useful in optimizing the yield of pumpkin patches." It needs both to be augmented with further examples and to be phrased in a way that makes clear the choice of examples is illustrative, not exhaustive. The "Education" section is also a bit shallow. It makes sense to focus on "elementary" or "school" algebra, as the text currently does, but we should say at least a little about the teaching of "higher"/"modern"/"abstract" algebra at the university level.

The references need to be combed through for cruft. I have removed a couple that looked like someone just pulled the first item in a Google Books search that wasn't obvious crankery [32][33]. XOR'easter (talk) 22:28, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@XOR'easter: Thanks for your comments. I added a short paragraph on tertiary education to the "Education" sections. I think it's a good idea to mention it but I don't want to delve too much into it given that most of the literature on algebra education focuses on secondary education. I reformulated some parts of the "Applications" section to make sure that the examples are not presented as an exhaustive account. I also expanded it by adding several new examples. If you have specific examples in mind that are not yet mentioned, I can also try to include them. I also replaced some sources with better alternatives. Phlsph7 (talk) 12:49, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Battle of Saipan

Nominator(s): Wtfiv (talk) 18:21, 4 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about the Battle of Saipan in June 1944. Because it was underway at the same time as the Normandy landings in France, it is less well known. It was the first invasion of the Mariana and Palau Islands campaign. The invasion triggered the Battle of the Philippine Sea, which effectively destroyed the Japanese navy's airpower. The island's capture pierced the Japanese defense perimeter and provided the American forces with an island base that put the Japanese home islands in range of the B-29 bombers. The fall of the island led to the collapse of the Japanese cabinet with the resignation of Hideki Tōjō, the prime minister of Japan.

The article has passed an A-class review and the images have been reviewed by Hawkeye7. Wtfiv (talk) 18:21, 4 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

• Suggest scaling up the maps

• Updated three maps of campaign progress to upright =1.2

• Some images are missing alt text

• Alt text added to 27th infantry moving inland, troops moving through Garapan in flames

• File:Garapan_Fire,_Saipan,_3_July_1944.jpg: the licensing here is contradictory - is this PD or CC? Nikkimaria (talk) 05:23, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Updated licensing to PD; it is part of the Marine archives.Wtfiv (talk) 16:28, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Matarisvan

I was one of the reviewers at A class and found this article to be a comprehensive review of the battle. I can happily support for promotion to A class on the general text quality. On source formatting, I would suggest adding archive URLs for the National Park Service source in the Online sources section, and also for Trefalt 2018, the only two sources we don't have archive URLs for. I will be doing a source review tomorrow. Cheers Matarisvan (talk) 17:53, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you Matarisvan,

I added the archive link for the National Park Service. I couldn't archive the convenience link for Trefalt as it is behind academia.edu's server, but the doi is available for readers, who have access to the journal. Wtfiv (talk) 21:42, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The source formatting review is a pass then. Here goes the source review:

• All sources are from reliable publishers.
• #3, #8, #21, #68, #81, #172, #267, #287: all ok.
• #124: ok but only Shaw, Nalty and Turbladh 1989 has the required supporting text, I could not find any in Harmsen 2021. Perhaps you should remove the latter.
• #153: For this text, "Less than a half hour after the start of the amphibious invasion", p. 63 would be the correct one, not p. 64. For the other use of this ref number, p. 64 is correct. You will have to separate the two.

Matarisvan (talk) 07:58, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

For #124, The Harmsen citation and its associated convenience link were corrected to p. 62, which discusses the first night's assault; #153 was corrected to p. 63. Wtfiv (talk) 15:58, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The source review is a pass then. Also I'd really appreciate it if you could check out a PR I opened recently, linked here. Cheers Matarisvan (talk) 16:06, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hawkeye 7

I reviewed this at A-class and looks good to me. But to prove I read it:

• "Nagumo" is misspelt as "Nagamo"

Hawkeye7 (discuss) 08:37, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, Hawkeye7! I fixed it. Wtfiv (talk) 14:48, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Hurricanehink

I figured I should review it since I have an FAC open too.

• "Organized resistance ended when at least 3,000 Japanese soldiers died in the final gyokusai attack" - eesh I had to look up what gyokusai was. I'm not sure what I expected, but I think a brief description here, either wave or swarming. I also noticed that gyokusai redirects to Banzai charge. Any reason for this particular wording here? I'm not familiar with the subject matter, just the first thing I've noticed.
• " and left Japan vulnerable to strategic bombing" - you mention this in the third lead paragraph, but it's also in the first. I'm not sure if the material in the first paragraph should be moved to the third, since that all kind of lumps together the aftermath of the battle.

• removed repeat of strategic bombing in lead, taking out mention of strategic bombing from the fourth paragraph, but left it in the first since it is important.

• Is it worth mentioning the brief history of Saipan being taken by Japan/Germany/US as part of the background? The US was kind of taking the island back, and it never gave it up after the war. Or furthermore, there isn't even much of a background to the Pacific campaign, just starting the narrative in 1944. I see you mention more history under "geography", but that kind of feels like "background" to me.

• Changed section name to "History and Geography". The US occupied Guam before the war, but not Saipan. The Saipan became a Japanese possession, part of the mandates, immediately after World War I.

• I notice that two times you use "nmi", without ever using the term "nautical mile". I was only familiar with the abbreviation because tropical cyclone articles (which I usually focus on) often have their units listed in nautical miles/knots, which we always convert since the average reader probably doesn't know what they are. Considering you mostly use imperial with metric units in parenthesis, I don't think you need the nmi, unless you think otherwise.
• " 81 and 91 inches" - convert to metric please. Ditto "seven miles"

• nmi removed, rainfall has cm conversions, seven miles now has kilometers.

• "The largest towns on the island–the administrative center of Garapan with its population of 10,000, Charan Kanoa, and Tanapag–were on the western coast of the island, which was where the best landing beaches for an invasion were. " clunky wording here

• reworded, breaking it into two sentences.

• "Nimitz assigned Admiral Raymond Spruance, " - I had to scroll up to remember who Nimitz was. Maybe remind the reader his significance, since it's the start of a section (Opposing forces). Kinda similarly when you say "the amphibious landings of Forager". I had to look up what Forager was again. Not a huge deal, but to a non-military expert, it might be helpful to have a few more reminders.

• added that Nimitz was commander of the Pacific Fleet. Replaced "Forager" with "Mariana Islands"

• Over 60,000 troops were assigned to the assault:[b] Approximately 22,000 were in each Marine division and 16,500 in the 27th Infantry Division. - I'm not sure the use of the colon after assault:

• Colon deleted

• "6 June 1944" - this stood out to me that your date format is European. Saipan is a US territory now, and most of the US uses Month and Day, not Day then Month. Is there a reason you chose this date format?

• I wanted to keep the format consistent with this article's companion article, Battle of Tinian. Tinian was the next island invaded a month after Saipan. (It's about three miles from Saipan.) I kept the format of that article because it passed both the A-class review and is a featured article using the DD Month Year format.

• "This made the defenses brittle." - is "brittle" the best word here? I'm not familiar with military terms here, and I'm not sure if "weak" is better, but maybe there's a better word out there than a word that makes me think of brittle candy.

• "brittle" changed to "weak"

Battle

• "On 11 June, over 200 F6F Hellcats from the Fast Carrier Task Force launched a surprise attack on Japanese airfields in Saipan and Tinian..." - we don't have an exact number?
• "which began around 08:40" - timezone? Is this local time? Washington time? Coordinated Universal Time?

  Here I followed MOS:TIMEZONE which states that event times should be given in the time zone in which the event occurred.

  That's fair, but anytime I deal with anything time specific, it's helpful to clarify with a note. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 17:47, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hurricanehink, I assume that for the American sources, time would be based on the WWII version of Military time zone (Zulu time) Saipan's military time zone falls within K time (or Kilo time), GMT+10. But none of the sources clarify this. Wtfiv (talk) 19:31, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Is there a reason "8000 men" doesn't have a comma for 8,000? Also, is this exact or about?

• Added "around" before 8000. Followed MOS:DIGITS, which states that commas are optional for four digit numbers.(Added comma)

• I see "pillbox" is linked in the pic farther down in the article than when it's mentioned for the first time in prose.

• Linked first occurrence of pillbox in main text.

• "He proposed to indefinitely postpone the 18 June invasion of Guam." - I'm guessing that happened? There's nothing else of this

• Added footnote that the Invasion of Guam took place on 21 July.

• "Intelligence had estimated that there were no more than 300 Japanese soldiers in the area" - do we know what intelligence? It might be better saying "Advanced reconnaissance" or "Spies" or however they estimated that, than starting with "Intelligence", which is odd to me as a civilian.

• Replaced "Intelligence" with "Smith". This follow's Lacey's wording.

• Why does the "American firepower" section appear under "25-30 June: Central Saipan, breakthrough"? I noticed that the Sherman tanks were already mentioned previously, just not in as much detail. I wonder if the "American firepower" should appear under "Opposing forces" under the American section? I think I see the logic having it where it is now: the American firepower allowed for this turning point. Right now parts of the section feels like it disrupts the narrative, considering what came before it. All of that said, the tanks with flamethrowers sounds fucking badass, which is partly why I think that needs to be highlighted better in the article than where it is. This section is what caught my eye:

• "The Americans had other assets as well. Over 150 tanks–over 100 of which were M4 Sherman tanks–had been committed to the invasion.[204] The M4 Sherman tank was superior to the Japanese Type 97 tank.[205] It was primarily used to support infantry and was considered one of the most effective weapons for destroying enemy emplacements.[206] Flame throwers were extensively used. Smith had seen the need for motorized flamethrowers and had requested that the Army's Chemical Warfare Service (CWS) in Hawaii install them in M3 Stuart tanks. Seabees with the CWS had 24 tanks, nicknamed "Satans", converted to flamethrowing in time for the invasion. They were very effective for destroying pillboxes, cave defenses, buildings, canefields, and brush."

• Moved the section on the tanks to "Opposing Forces". Kept the sections on artillery and portable flame-throwers in this section, as this is when they were actively deployed.

• "But his army's cohesion was disintegrating. Some of the remaining forces moved north, others holed up in whatever caves they could find and put up sporadic, disorganized resistance." - I noticed a few times earlier where a sentence started with "But", which felt clunky. And then the second part felt like it was missing a word, or a semicolon. Maybe "while others holed up"?

• Reworded sentences. Removed initial "But". Removed some of the other lead "But's" too.

• "On 4 July, the 27th Infantry Division and 4th Marine Division headed northwest. The 27th division reached the east coast at Flores Point, south of Tanapag" - wait is the 27th the same for both sentences here? How did it go northwest and end up east? Going around the tip of the island, I'm guessing? If so, maybe clarify that?

• That should have read "west coast at Flores Point". Fixed

• "and inflicting 80% casualties" - the rest of the article used exact number of casualties, not percentages, so I suggest using an exact number if you can.

  Added "about 900 casualties". I left 80% as a clause to illustrate the magnitude of the loss.

• "who survived the last banzai charge" - see my earlier comment about gyokusai or banzai, as long as it's consistent.

• Changed to gyokusai.

• "Eventually 1700" - why no comma?

• Added comma. (MOS:DIGITS states that commas are optional for four digit numbers.)

• " It was the Americans' most costly battle in the Pacific up to that time." - seems to have been deadly, not costly, unless I'm mistaken

• Changed to "deadly"

• What is "ordnance "?

• replaced with "shells during the battle".

• "Hirohito only accepted Saipan's eventual fall on 25 June when his advisors told him all was lost" - in 1944 or 1945? The last year mentioned was 1945, so I have to ask

• added 1944

All in all an interesting read about a battle I knew nothing about! Well done all around. Most of my notes should be pretty easy to fix/address (I hope). Lemme know if you have any questions. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 01:53, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your comments, Hurricanehink. I've responded. Do these address the issues you pointed out? Wtfiv (talk) 18:30, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Absolutely, thanks so much for the quick responses! Happy to support now. Good work on this. I don't usually read military articles, but I found this fairly easy to follow. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 19:08, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Source review

Source formatting seems consistent. Are "free Press" and "Metro books" really lowercase? Is Samuel Eliot Morison a reliable source? Some of what it says raises questions. Is http://www.historytoday.com/ a high-quality reliable source? In terms of reliability, it seems like we are working with good sources ... but even with WP:NONENG the fact that English and US-affiliated sources are almost the entire source body raises some WP:UNDUE concerns. Are there really no Japanese sources on the battle? Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:40, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Capitalization: "Free Press" and "Metro Books" have been fixed.
• Morison as a source: "New Guinea and the Marianas, March 1944–August 1944." is part of the History of United States Naval Operations in World War II. It is not a perfect source, as that article points out. Unlike the United States Marines and the United States Army, the United States Navy never published an official history. Morison's is the closest it comes. The Navy stated that Morison's history was not its official history. His advantage however, is that the navy gave him access to its records, gave him an office office in the Navy Department under the Director of Naval Records and History while writing the book, and a staff of assistance. See the Naval Command and Heritage site for a review of Morison. Morison's strength is clearly one of the reference sources for later histories of the Pacific War, including Ian Toll's Pacific War Trilogy and Hornfischer. (see Hornfischer's review of Morison here.) In using Morison as a source, I did not use his analyses or assumptions of motivations. I used what he had access to, (e.g., ship number, troops, information about plans, and the like.)

• Just to add here, Morison continues to be widely used by professional historians so is clearly a reliable source. He shouldn't be used in isolation as the books can be dated at times (and sometimes can be slightly eccentric), but that's not the case here. I've referenced Morrison in several FAs that passed with no concerns being raised over the source. The series remains the most detailed account of the US Navy in World War II. Nick-D (talk) 10:35, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Japanese sources: My contributions tend to aim to a close adherence WP:NONENG when possible, though I will provide foreign language sources with a quote and translation when they make a critical point (see Frederick the Great or Joan of Arc). One of the major problems in most writing about the island warfare in the Pacific is that almost all the Japanese witnesses died. Testimony from Japanese survivors interrogated by the military is included in the article. I did include English-language works from Japanese-speaking scholars studying the Pacific War. These include Tanaka, Irokawa, Kawamura, and Hiroyuki. The former three have author links with their sources. They mainly focus on how the battle impacted Japanese decision making at the grand strategic level.

• Ironically, one of the major sources for the Japanese military perspective on the island-as cited in the English-language sources- was Takashi Hirakushi. Almost all contemporary histories still cite him as a source, but as a footnote in the article suggests, his first-person testimony may not be reliable. Much of his testimony was initially shared under the name of an officer who had actually died in the fighting, and his story changed over time (cf., Hoffman's version written in the 1950s and Toland's summary based his interviews with Hirakushi in World War II), and some statements are contradicted by interrogations of other survivors. Problems with the details can be found in footnote h in the article. The sources in the footnote provide more information. I've provided convenience links to the sources wherever possible so English-speaking readers can verify the information themselves.

Wtfiv (talk) 15:51, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• oops, forgot about the Hughes. Removed it and replaced with Atroth.
• Also,with respect to Japanese sources: Trefalt is an English-speaking source, but her article gives a critical treatment of civilians in Saipan in her analysis of civilian survivor's diaries. Wtfiv (talk) 16:34, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• I've replaced the Hughes from history today with the peer-reviewed article by him in the Journal of Military History. It's more in-depth and fully cited.
• Interestingly, Hughes on pg 102 (with a footnote with specific references) also points out that the Japanese sources remain thin, though they would be useful. Very little of the Senshi Sōsho, the Japanese multivolume official history of the war has been translated, and it doesn't include the sections on Saipan Most personal memoirs by Japanese people who were at Saipan have not been translated either. Hughes mentions two untranslated memoirs about Saipan.

Wtfiv (talk) 23:13, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Hughes also mentions Saburō Ienaga's work, which was translated into English, The Pacific War: World War II and the Japanese, 1931–45 (1968; New York: Pantheon, 1978). I had access to this book when writing the article. It gives an overview of a Japanese perspective, but Saipan is not discussed. The closest he comes is a passing mention of the Battle of the Philippine sea as part of the Japanese military being ground down by overwhelming American production. Wtfiv (talk) 23:18, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Hi Jo-Jo, how is this looking now? Gog the Mild (talk) 18:55, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Good but I wonder if there are other sources (non-military ones) here that could be used. I'll also stress that I am less adept at analyzing military sources than academic ones, so if there is some subtle bias I won't necessarily spot it. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 10:04, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Jo-Jo, I am moderately up to speed with the Pacific Campaign, so I will reread the article with this in mind. Gog the Mild (talk) 11:25, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Gog, did you get a chance to do this yet? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 21:10, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Apologies for missing this Ian. There didn't seem to be any bias to me, nor any clearly relevant and unused sources. In brief, I am happy - in the light of my checks and Jo-Jo and Wtfiv's comments with the sourcing. Gog the Mild (talk) 12:16, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry for the late response, I missed this until now. When working on the article, I looked for relevant articles in journals without a military focus when researching the article in the academic search engines of had access to, including Google Scholar. They were few. I used Trefalt (2018) in The Journal of Pacific History analyses Japanese civilian's experience using Japanese diaries and memoirs, Plung (2021) in the Asia-Pacific Journal: Japan Focus discusses Saipan in the context of evacuation policies in Japan, Giangreco (2003) in the Pacific Historical Review discusses American casualties in terms of policy decisions in the war. The Tanaka (2023) chapter in the edited volume The Modern Japanese Nation and Empire c. 1868 to the Twenty-First Century described where Saipan fit into Japanese defense strategy at the governmental level. Though Astroth (2019), Mass Suicides on Saipan and Tinian, 1944: An Examination of the Civilian Deaths in Historical Context. is a book, not a journal, its is an in-depth about civilian casualties in a larger historical context. Wtfiv (talk) 18:18, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support by Nick-D

I also reviewed this in its A-class review. I'd like to offer the following comments in regards to meeting the FA criteria:

• The article appears to have been considerably expanded and copy edited since the ACR. It is clearly of FA standard - I can't find much to comment on, though I've made a few minor tweaks to tidy up the article.
• The lead is excellent, and a model of how they should be structured.
• As a very minor suggestion, I'd suggest replacing "took out" with something more formal, liked "destroyed" Nick-D (talk) 10:28, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

done! Thank you for the review Nick-D! Wtfiv (talk) 21:35, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Coord note

Saipan's loss had a greater impact in Japan than all its previous defeats. Could be read as "all of its previous defeats put together" or "any of its previous defeats". Could we clarify in the text? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 22:10, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Tagging @Wtfiv who may not have seen this note. Matarisvan (talk) 16:23, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

¡Gracias! Matarisvan , ¡me perdí esto! Lo actualicé con cualquiera de sus derrotas anteriores según la sugerencia de Ian Rose . Wtfiv ( discusión ) 20:57 14 oct 2024 (UTC) [ responder ]