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Talk:The Americans

Requested move 18 June 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC criteria. WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT wouldn't work per WP:PRECISION. If the article enters into the predicted slow decline and later is no longer the primary topic, the articles can be rearranged then. -- JHunterJ (talk) 12:29, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

– WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Usage criteria by a huge margin based on page view counts[1]; all other uses of "The Americans" are totally obscure. You can see this in WP search box too if you type in "the americans" - you'll see this article about this series and its episode articles. And by long-term significance, critically acclaimed as one of the greatest TV series of all time, now six years old and still dominating page views, it "deserves" primary topic status. The very, very few users actually looking for one of the other uses of "The Americans" can get to the dab page via the hatnote link. And, no, anyone searching with "the americans" (plural and with the the) is very unlikely to be looking for American (singular with The), Americans (plural, without the The) or The American (singular with The), so those are not relevant here. Anyone going to the trouble of including the The and using the plural Americans in their search is almost certainly looking for this article. В²C ☎ 21:04, 18 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I do get your point, but that's not why I'm supporting the change. I have severe reservations about supporting it for that reason. If they do their searches off the site, then the name we give the article is irrelevant, and as previously stated, searches off site are outside of our remit. I think that using a standardised naming convention for ALL articles would be the way to go, and users can learn the standardisation; but since we don't have standardisation and there are no other really relevant searches for that specific string which get anything like the quantity of traffic, I'm supporting the change in this single instance. But I would not, under any circumstances, support the same change for all such articles.
Cadar (talk) 09:33, 20 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

How much hatnote is too much?

See discussion about hatnote lengths in particular, and the one currently on this page in particular, here:

Wikipedia_talk:Disambiguation#How_much_hatnote_is_too_much?

Ping:@Joeyconnick:

--В²C ☎ 18:33, 8 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

So vis-a-vis WP:STATUSQUO and WP:BRD, Born2cycle, please self-revert to the shorter version while we discuss here.
You keep saying your version is "one line". Here is the screenshot from my browser, the image being 2470 pixels off an iMac retina screen, so actually 1235 pixels wide, which is not a particularly narrow width for a browser (this is with zoom set to 100%, regular CSS, etc.). Your version is not one line. In fact, it doesn't become one line until I widen my browser to 1584 pixels, and it's quite a leap to be stating that most people would have a browser window this wide.
Beyond just the width, it's been decided via consensus that the TV series is primary. Listing even two potential alternate targets is excessive—using what criteria have you determined that the 1961 TV series and the Frank book are worthy of inclusion but the band, the Jakes novel and the gang are not? It's clear we should revert to simply pointing people to the disambiguation page via {{other uses}} as was previously the case before your recent edit. —Joeyconnick (talk) 19:36, 8 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Need help fixing links

Here is the list of articles with references to The Americans (2013 TV series). Each article on that list needs to be edited to change the link to The Americans (2013 TV series) to be direct to here at The Americans. I've been whittling away at that task (example diff), but could use some help... thanks! --В²C ☎ 18:38, 14 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Per WP:NOTBROKEN, they don't really need to be fixed as The Americans (2013 TV series) just redirects to this article. Of course, if you wish to continue, then good on you! Drovethrughosts (talk) 18:49, 14 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I disagree, removing these pipes removes the very helpful hovertext, and is a net backward step. Hovertext is very useful for readers who want more information on the ambiguous wikilink (the displayed wikilink is obviously ambiguous to any reader not familiar with DIFFCAPS). Please don't remove piping that provides the PRECISE hovertext. This WP:NOTBROKEN piped wikilink allows you to see where this shortcut takes you, without filling the page with a really long url. It is useful and has no reader-impacting downside. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 07:45, 20 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Over at User_talk:Andrewa/P_T_test_cases#It_is_already_a_problem, Andrewa argued that the unambiguous The Americans (2013 TV series) redirect was important since "hundreds of users per day were using that redirect". My contention is that this is only because of the hundreds of links through that redirect; that it's not important because they're only using it indirectly. So, it's something of a test case, which can only be tested by removing all the links through this redirect. After this link cleanup task is done and we give it some time, we'll see the effect on the view counts for this redirect. Plus, it's hard to compare page views prior to the move and after the move if the view counts remain distorted by all these links through a redirect after the move. As to the hovertext, all that tells you is that "The Americans" is a TV series which is already obvious in 99-100% of the references to it from context, and that it began in 2013, which is only there because there is another TV series with that name from 58 years ago which is so obscure it gets hardly any page views. While such hovertext may be useful in other cases, here I don't see how it is at all, so I'm not seeing any user impact from this. --В²C ☎ 18:41, 20 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Here's a particularly good example. At List of television programs: A we have:
*''[[The Americans (1961 TV series)|The Americans]]'' (1961)
*''[[The Americans (2013 TV series)|The Americans]]'' (2013)
which of course renders as:

:::*The Americans (1961)

So the point of adding "2013 TV series" to the hovertext when the article is about TV programs and the plain text already says 2013 is what, exactly? Here's how it is now:

:::*The Americans (1961)

--В²C ☎ 00:35, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Hovertext is a particular tool, a good one, for accessibility. Explicit text works too, but is not always best for the main layout, usually not good for mid-sentence. You should stop destroying things that you don't understand. In the above examples, I would not bother adding the piped PRECICE link, but there is no advnatage in you removing it, and your systematic removals are hitting other examples not like the above. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 02:37, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Born2cycle, thanks for the ping, but please stop this pointy exercise, for which there is no consensus support, immediately. Discuss here or at User talk:Andrewa/P T test cases#Actively damaging the product or User talk:Andrewa/P T test cases#It is still a problem. Andrewa (talk) 02:44, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
For those who favour [[The Americans (2013 TV series)|The Americans]], do you see it as a problem that we have 0 wikilinks of the form [[The Sopranos (1999 TV series)|The Sopranos]] or even [[The Sopranos (TV series)|The Sopranos]]? I mean, obviously all these piped links only exist because the article's title used to be "The Americans (2013 TV series)". I'm having a hard time believing anyone would intentionally construct such a piped link if they were writing about the series now, post-move. Colin M (talk) 05:53, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
No. The Sopanos is not ambiguous. While one could talk about “the sopranos” as that squeaky part of the choir, it is not done nearly as much as others write about the Americans, that modern people ascribed with a large number generalised characteristics. I didn’t participate in the recent move, but it looks like it was a mistake. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 06:31, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Wanna try that one again? The Sopranos IS as ambiguous as The Americans: The Sopranos (novel). —В²C ☎ 07:04, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, you got me there, I thought the novel was related, a source or a spinoff. Well, it’s not ambiguous with anything important. I try to avoid worrying about titling of topics on commercial popular culture, except where they encroach real topics. Commercial popular culture deliberately goes for common terms and double meanings, and are usually passing fads, if they succeed at all. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 07:55, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The close was arguably OK, but the result was unfortunate. Nobody's fault, but that's why I raised it at User talk:Andrewa/P T test cases#The Americans where much of this discussion also belongs. Warning, there's a lot of discussion there already! Andrewa (talk) 07:13, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
If you manage to squirm out of your Sopranos dilemma, SmokeyJoe, surely you agree Law & Order is ambiguous, right? Then do you and Andrewa think it is a problem that we don’t link to Law & Order with [[Law & Order (TV series)|Law & Order]]? Or with [[Law & Order (1990 TV series)|Law & Order]]? If so, then are you advocating we change the links accordingly? If not, how are you distinguishing with The Americans? —В²C ☎ 07:34, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
No, I don’t think LaO is ambiguous. The important topic is Law and order (politics), and even if not parenthetically disambiguated, very helpfully too, the DIFFCAPS is good enough. Not all SMALLDETAILS are good enough, but the O is. The other competing topics appear to all be spinouts of the same thing. The thing with “the Americans”, “The Americans” if at the start of a sentence, is that it is frequently the important topic of “the American people”, or alternatively the related “the American people’s government”. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 07:55, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I think this needs further discussion in view of the opinions expressed by Colin M and MapReader. It still seems to me that web users are advantaged by the link being to an unambiguous name, using the pipe trick. But mobile users may not be, if it means the wikilink goes via a redirect, which I think is what has been said elseswhere. If that is so, then the best solution all around is, again, to have the article at an unambiguous name. Which does not surprise me. Having ambiguous article names is just asking for trouble. Andrewa (talk) 11:20, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

 Done. Now it will be interesting to see what happens with the page view counts over the next week or so. —В²C ☎ 07:04, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The most interesting thing will be how you intend to interpret those statistics. Andrewa (talk) 07:17, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Explain, please. —В²C ☎ 07:34, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Let us just see where the exercise leads, as we've come this far. Andrewa (talk) 11:20, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Effect on page view counts

The page view counts are changing in the expected direction, but slowly. 2478 vs 336 on Aug 20; 2742 vs 196 on Aug 21. So I think the redirects don't matter very much after all. I'm guessing the page views the old (disambiguated) link continues to get are mostly from old external links, perhaps mostly from Bing and Yahoo which are still sending users to the old titles. --В²C ☎ 20:50, 22 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

22 Aug 2019: Bing and Yahoo still point to the old disambiguated title. Nevertheless, those counts continue to drop, though the main article counts dropped too[2]. 2526 vs 135 (down from 2742/196). --В²C ☎ 20:12, 23 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
None of that is surprising, surely? And some of it is of course the direct consequence of your own "fixing" links via those redirects. That's a bit like a politician opening and financing a heroin den and then producing statistics that show drug use increasing in that suburb.
I think we need to agree to disagree as to whether these redirects matter very much. I think that all readers matter. Andrewa (talk) 01:09, 24 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Yes it’s not surprising and it supports my point that such redirects don’t matter very much, except as a patch/workaround after a page move. All my link corrections did was set them to how they would be had the article been at the ambiguous base name in the first place. —В²C ☎ 04:53, 24 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It seems to me that your "corrections" have distorted the data, which was always going to be of questionable value anyway (see #Pageview reliability below of course), in order to prove a point that nobody was disputing in any case, and have left us with hundreds of wikilinks which will become mislinkings if ever the article is moved again, a possibility explicitly foreshadowed by the closer of your RM. Andrewa (talk) 04:36, 26 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Andrewa, please explain how the "corrections" have distorted the data. Presumably they've affected the data. Frankly, I'm not sure by how much. First of all, if a link goes through a redirect, and someone clicks on that link, does that redirect's page view count get incremented from that click? After all, the user never actually viewed the redirect, and is likely unaware they even went through it. In fact, whether the link goes through the redirect or not, the user experience is identical, unless they happened to hover over the link. So, anyway, assuming clicking a link to a redirect does count as a "view" of that redirect, how is no longer counting "nonviews" as views a distortion? --В²C ☎ 16:44, 26 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I'll try. You have now made this as experimental study rather than an observational study. There is no prospect of conducting a valid experiment here, or of now conducting the observational study that might have been fruitful. I guess it's that last sentence that you'd dispute? I also note the unless they happened to hover over the link above. This seems to rely on your belief that hovertext doesn't matter, which is of course disputed. Andrewa (talk) 19:00, 27 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
We have observational studies of page view counts before and after the title change, and against before and after the link-fixing. See the table below. I still don't understand what's distorted. Hovertext matters sometimes, I'm sure, just not in this case. At least I didn't find a context where it matters in the hundreds I examined as I fixed the links. In every case, the information from the hovertext, that it was a TV series that started in 2013, was either already obvious or not very useful or both. If you know of a situation I overlooked where it does matter, please show me. --В²C ☎ 20:21, 27 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Did any of the articles you fixed also link to The Americans (1961 TV series)? I know it's not likely to be many, in that they were connected only in name mainly, but in 300 articles more than possible. And your exercise has made them a lot harder to find, but that's the first place I'd like to look. Andrewa (talk) 12:42, 28 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
No. All linked to this page. —В²C ☎ 13:56, 28 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
And none of them also linked to The Americans (1961 TV series)? That was the question. Andrewa (talk) 20:57, 29 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
By the way, the 1961 series has 57 links from article space; the 2013 series has 621 (not counting transclusions and redirects), which is another indicator of primary topic not even mentioned in the RM. All the other uses of "The Americans" on the dab page each have less than 50 article space links to them. Americans has many more, but that's arguably not a target for "The Americans". In fact, I've been unable to find an example of "the Americans" which refers to Americans. For example, in United States at the 1896 Summer Olympics, the reference within "The Americans were the most successful athletes..." refers to the US Olympic team that year, not to the Americans. Even at Military history of the United States during World War II, where there are 25 separate references to "the Americans", none of them link to Americans, nor should they. Maybe there are some legit uses of "the Americans" which do or should link to Americans, but I can't find any, and I'm sure there are less than 50; no where near the 621 the 2013 series has. So, it's the clear primary topic for "The Americans" by the link count method, despite all the article space links to (The-less) Americans. --В²C ☎ 15:47, 28 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The main game of course is, will this continue? And we will need to wait some time to find that out. Andrewa (talk) 20:57, 29 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
25 Aug 2019: Bing and Yahoo still point to the old disambiguated title, almost two months after the move on 26 June. Daily averages for last five days are 147 for the disambiguated title, presumably mostly from external sources including Bing and Yahoo, and 2582 for the article at the base name. Note that in early July, a few days after the page move, the daily averages were already 2214 and 764[3]. So Google probably was already redirecting to the base name by then. Also, I started the corrections to the redirects on August 9. The averages for the five days prior to that are 2260 and 619[4]. So before I started fixing the links, the distribution was still continuing to favor the base name. I finished the link corrections on August 20. The averages for the five days after that are above: 2582 and 147. So now I think that did have a big effect on how the page view counts for the redirect, from above 600 to below 150, even though they were not viewed. But virtually no effect on users. I think probably close to 100% of the remaining 150ish daily "views" of the redirects are because of Bing and Yahoo, and maybe a few other external links. --В²C ☎ 16:44, 26 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

20 Jan 2021. Wow, almost two years after the move Bing and Yahoo still point to the old disambiguated title. The probably explains most of the "views" that page is still getting. --В²C ☎ 04:34, 20 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Yes В²C I think this is a good example of why we should be careful about doing PT swaps, obviously if a primary topic is wrong moving it sooner rather than later is better and this move was find since it wasn't a swap. Crouch, Swale (talk) 21:01, 8 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It’s odd because Google updates in days if not hours. — В²C ☎ 23:52, 8 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Finally! Not sure when they fixed it since January 2021, but today, more than three years after the page move, the link to WP in the Bing search results for “The Americans”, and on Yahoo too, leads to this article with undisambiguated title. This is reflected in the page view counts for the old disambiguated title finally dropping to about one per day. See table below. —В²C ☎ 14:07, 14 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Page view count table

This table helps see what the effects are. The numbers are the 5 day averages of the corresponding page counts - the five days preceding the date listed.

--В²C ☎ 18:39, 26 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Pageview reliability

Seeing you play with pageview counts and attempting to make decision algorithms makes me think you suffer the Dunning–Kruger effect. This sort of data is already massively harvested and processed by google, one example. Google uses the information dynamically, using artificial intelligent algorithms, with live feedback. They track hits, plus time to next search, plus the next hit where you linger. You appear to want to make Wikipedia function like a 1980s BASIC programmed google, and are blind to the purpose of Wikipedia as a scholarly repository of information, not facts. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 08:04, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The problem was well demonstrated by this edit, which very confidently and completely misinterpreted the data. There was no attempt at what my Math Stats lecturers called reasonableness, and the results were a bit sad... a critical typo was overlooked, which made the post pure rubbish, and the sarcastic comment cringeworthy. Andrewa (talk) 11:20, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, don't be such a drama queen. That was not completely misinterpreting anything. Yes, the difference was not as significant with s as with S (in [S/s]eries), but it's enough to make my point. Of course, discovering the page view counts for The Americans (2013 TV series) were more than a handful is what led to me removing all the links to that redirect, to see if the reason for that count was due to all those links. Early indications are that the counts are dropping but it's still too early to tell. I suspect there is also residual effect of the old title within external search engine results which are still being worked out (but that's just a reason to keep the redirect). --В²C ☎ 16:01, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Drama queen? If I said something like (rolls eyes). Dude, you need to find something with more impact to do with your life.. (diff above), now that would be drama. If I said something like don't be such a drama queen, now that would be more drama... no diff required. The point is that behind this drama on your part were statistics which were wrong (owing to your typo), but which you took at face value. And that is the problem with your whole approach, wanting to rely entirely on page stats. Even if they became popular enough for their page statistics to eclipse the traditional meaning, a band called Mathematics shouldn't be moved to the base name. We need reasonableness checks as well as statistics. And any competent student of statistics could tell you that if you would only listen.
(but that's just a reason to keep the redirect)... Exactly. In fact regardless of statistics, there are reasons to keep the redirect. It's both useful and harmless. Now, if you're finished rolling your eyes, (sorry, that's drama too isn't it, couldn't resist) and if we are agreed that the redirect should be kept regardless of any statistics, maybe we can consider that there might also be reasons for creating such redirects? This was the question. Andrewa (talk) 17:38, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Andrewa, I'm very curious to know what you think the reasons are to create redirects like The Sopranos (TV series). I agree they're harmless. I just don't see how they're useful. Feel free to address the below. --В²C ☎ 20:41, 26 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Andrewa (talk) 19:43, 27 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed, I just searched for "The Americans" at bing.com and the link to here is still to the old title at The Americans (2013 TV series). Google, however, already takes users to the new title at The Americans. Once Bing catches up, I suspect the page view counts for that redirect will evaporate almost completely, eliminating basis for the claim that if we are to have ambiguous titles for (primary topic) articles, that such articles should have unambiguous redirects, and not only when they were moved from such. --В²C ☎ 16:19, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
There's no doubt that they will. And that it will prove absolutely nothing. We have no way of producing the statistics needed to prove that the redirect from the unambiguous name is useless. Andrewa (talk) 17:23, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
If The Americans (2013 TV series) has some utility as a redirect (beyond being an artifact of the article's former title), what exactly is its nature? And wouldn't that be shared with, say, The Sopranos (TV series), which does not even exist? If the page view counts drop to nil in a few months, that will prove the redirect is practically useless, and we don't need it except as the previous title artifact, and we certainly don't need redirects like The Sopranos (TV series), which you seem to think we do (assuming we don't adopt your preference to move all articles to unambiguous titles like that). --В²C ☎ 17:51, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Agree that the redirect from The Sopranos (TV series) would be a good idea, by my logic. Not a high priority but useful for some, however few they may be, and completely harmless for the rest of us. So why not have it?
But my preference is not to move all articles to unambiguous titles like that. I really thought we had covered that, several times now in fact. Please, read the proposal. Andrewa (talk) 19:01, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I suggest a serious heart-to-heart session in front of the mirror, Andrew. "the best solution all around is, again, to have the article at an unambiguous name. Which does not surprise me. Having ambiguous article names is just asking for trouble." --В²C ☎ 20:08, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
A very good idea. But the more I have considered it, the more the answer seems to be simple and obvious... ambiguous article names are a bad idea. They seem to have net benefits only because we (self included) have long been unimaginative in assessing both the benefits and the drawbacks. In hindsight, they violate both the spirit of our article naming policy and the whole purpose of having article names. It's as clearcut as that. But it will take a while more to sell this, at best. Andrewa (talk) 02:21, 22 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Searching for The Americans at Yahoo also produces a link to the old title at WP: the disambiguated The Americans (2013 TV series). No surprise that Google updates better/faster than the others. I wonder how long it will take Bing and Yahoo to update. --В²C ☎ 16:23, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Which proves...? Andrewa (talk) 17:23, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It proves anyone searching for information about the series at Yahoo (or Bing, but not Google) will arrive at our article via the redirect, bumping/distorting its page view count with no benefit to anyone. --В²C ☎ 20:12, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
OK, suppose for the moment I accept the first part of that... anyone searching for information about the series at Yahoo (or Bing, but not Google) will arrive at our article via the redirect. Now, the question was, does this redirect help anyone? You seemed convinced it didn't. Don't these people count?
And they are not the only ones. The redirect helps anyone who sees, in any place and for any reason, a link they recognise as being the article they want.
And this has always been the spirit of WP:AT. Please, do not write or put an article on a page with an ambiguously-named title as though that title had no other meanings! (Larry Sanger, bold is my emphasis, his overall emphasis including the exclamation mark and the "please"). Andrewa (talk) 02:42, 22 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Andrewa, yes, of course users are helped by redirects that remain after a title is moved - no one, certainly not me, is arguing for not having such redirects. But I'm saying they - the ones accessing links that happen to still point to the old title - are the only ones who benefit from such redirects. If not for the move from the previous title which caused the creation of the links to the previous disambiguated title, there would be no benefit to having the redirect with a parenthetically disambiguated title pointing to the article at the base name. That's what I mean when I say such redirects don't have any intrinsic value. That's why The Sopranos (TV series) remains a redlink, and nobody cares: there is no benefit to anyone if it gets created, even though "The Sopranos" is ambiguous with The Sopranos (novel). The only way there would be a benefit to have The Sopranos (TV series) exist as a redirect to The Sopranos is if it had been the title of the article in the past, and there were links that still went through it. So, it, like all other such disambiguated redirects, has no intrinsic value. For anyone. --В²C ☎ 16:57, 26 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
One way it benefits readers is that a wikilink can be created via the unambiguous redirect, which creates helpful hovertext. But of course you don't like these either, perhaps for that very reason. Andrewa (talk) 19:38, 27 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
That's contrived and theoretical. I contend you'd be hard-pressed to find a single place where changing a link to The Sopranos to a redirect to it called The Sopranos (TV series) would actually be useful to anyone, for the hypertext "feature" or for any other reason. Prove me wrong. --В²C ☎ 20:26, 27 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Sticks and stones... No it's not contrived, please AGF. Theoretical, or hypothetical, yes. You are already proven wrong. Andrewa (talk) 12:06, 28 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Does WP:NOTBROKEN apply here?

A few editors have invoked WP:NOTBROKEN above, but I'm doubtful as to whether that policy actually applies to these edits. Copying from a comment left on B2C's talk page: NOTBROKEN says not to replace bare links to redirects with piped links (i.e. [[redirect]] → [[target|redirect]]). B2C's edits (at least the couple I looked at) are doing the opposite - replacing redundant piped links like [[The Americans (2013 TV series)|The Americans]] with the simpler [[The Americans]]. This seems like a desirable change according to the wording of WP:NOTBROKEN itself: Introducing unnecessary invisible text makes the article more difficult to read in page source form., and also Non-piped links make better use of the "what links here" tool, making it easier to track how articles are linked and helping with large-scale changes to links. See also WP:NOPIPE: First of all, keep links as simple as possible. Colin M (talk) 05:34, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Good questions!
This general issue should be discussed on a suitable policy or guideline talk page before any more edits to "correct" these piped links are made IMO. Andrewa (talk) 06:28, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with the OP. Whilst replacing a link to a redirect with a link directly to the relevant article isn't the most critical of changes, it does represent an improvement. When someone using the mobile site on a phone or tablet clicks through to an article via a redirect, a redirect box flashes up on the screen, which is avoided with a direct link. Our job is to improve the quality and usability of our articles, and I certainly don't see any justification for ever reverting such an edit. MapReader (talk) 07:42, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Interesting. So, the mobile user is advantaged by having a direct link? That seems to me to be a problem with the mobile version, if indeed it's a problem.
The web user, on the other hand, is disadvantaged by the loss of the unambiguous hovertext. The mobile user not so? Andrewa (talk) 11:02, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
On a mobile device, press and hold the wikilink and the full url will appear at the top of the option. That information is the same as the hovertext. I routinely do it to read what people are piping under their text. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 11:16, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
If the hovertext is needed to get a clear fix on what the article is about, then the title of the article is wrong. Build the disambiguation into the article title and you help everyone, mobile or PC. It makes no sense to have links pointing to places other than where they are supposed to go. MapReader (talk) 11:24, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Agree that the title of the article is wrong. Any ambiguous article title is in this sense wrong. But if we're stuck with ambiguous titles, as we are under current policy and guidelines, then a piped wikilink to the unambiguous redirect is a workaround.
But be careful not to assume that all readers have the same idea of what an ambiguous article title means. They don't. That's the whole reason Primary Topic fails us. For some readers, the unambiguous name will be needed to get a clear fix on what the article is about. Others will get lucky. Andrewa (talk) 12:24, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
This discussion is getting somewhat bizarre. The format for a wikilink is clearly spelled out in policy, and directs straight to the title (or section) of the relevant article. No sensible person would deliberately use the incorrect title (and if they have an issue with the title, take it up on that talk page). Where additional information is needed to make sense of the link in its embedded context, use piping and put the additional info after the break bar. What goes before the break bar is the destination article, exactly as it appears in WP. Really that should be it. MapReader (talk) 04:57, 22 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This discussion is getting somewhat bizarre. It's convoluted, yes, and much of what we're discussing really belongs on project talk pages not article talk.

The format for a wikilink is clearly spelled out in policy, and directs straight to the title (or section) of the relevant article. No. Policy is not clear on that at all... or at least there seem several interpretations at the very least.

No sensible person would deliberately use the incorrect title (and if they have an issue with the title, take it up on that talk page). Begs the question I think, if by incorrect you mean piped through a redirect. Sensible people do want to do that. Maybe they should be told not to. Maybe policy already does. That's what we're discussing.

Where additional information is needed to make sense of the link in its embedded context, use piping and put the additional info after the break bar. No. The whole idea of piped links is to allow wikilinks that do not tamper with the flowing text.

What goes before the break bar is the destination article, exactly as it appears in WP. Again, I think you're begging the question. There is a view that policy can and/or should allow wikilinks to be piped through redirects.

Really that should be it. I respect your opinion. But there are other views. Andrewa (talk) 06:36, 22 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Is anyone else arguing that we should deliberately link articles via redirects rather than their titles? Or is it just you. MapReader (talk) 06:47, 22 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I am certainly of the opinion that there are circumstances in which it's helpful to pipe via an unambiguous redirect, and that at least some of the wikilinks now "fixed" in the campaign that is the topic of this whole section (not just this subsection) are probably cases in point.
All your longish post above [32] seems to say is that you disagree, and that you think that should settle the matter.
Others above do seem to agree with me. Do I need to ping them? Still others agree with you of course, notably the editor who started this section. Andrewa (talk) 07:03, 22 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Absolutely agree with that. But that's a matter for JHunterJ who made the decision. MapReader (talk) 07:54, 22 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I also agree "'The Americans' primarily refers to the people of America". However, the whole point of PRIMARYTOPIC is about arranging our articles to reduce the average number of clicks required by users to find the articles they seek. So what matters is not what "The Americans" "primarily refers to", but what people searching with "The Americans" are most likely looking for. That's a very different question to which the answer is clearly the 2013 TV series, and exactly why it was recognized as the primary topic for "The Americans". --В²C ☎ 16:15, 22 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Partly agree. the whole point of PRIMARYTOPIC is about arranging our articles to reduce the average number of clicks required by users to find the articles they seek... Our current article naming procedures do aid you in achieving this goal. I of course question whether it's the best way to structure Wikipedia's article naming, for several reasons both logical and practical. It does save many readers one mouse click. But it means we need to change names according to the flavour of the month, and more important (but partly as a result) IMO makes articles in general harder to find. But that last view is of course controversial.
I also agree "'The Americans' primarily refers to the people of America". And yet you deliberately and successfully moved a topic that's only distantly related to that meaning to the base name. Interesting. Andrewa (talk) 17:35, 22 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
IMO JHunterJ (pinged above so I won't repeat it) made a very good close (as you would expect from his experience and thoroughness etc in such matters), and otherwise I would have invoked Move Review. Not his fault at all, nor of the others who !voted to move. It's the system that is busted.
But do we have rough consensus here that, in hindsight at least, the move was a bad thing for Wikipedia? That's the important question, not whose fault it was.
I'm seeing views above from SmokeyJoe and MapReader that The Americans (2013 TV Series) should not be at the base name as currently, which is of course my view too. But is that a fair statement? I don't think there's much chance of agreement from B2C (who proposed the RM of course), but even without it we may have a rough consensus. Andrewa (talk) 18:51, 22 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
You can't establish even a rough consensus about any title without a formal RM discussion where views are evaluated on how well they are based in policy and guidelines. BTW, we agree the system is busted; it has been busted since the inclusion of the historical significance criteria in primary topic. As I've long argued, the historical significance factor is already accounted for within the usage criteria as much as it should be. The significance of historical significance varies based on how much it influences how often the topic in question is sought. But that's besides the point in this case since adding "the" in front of "americans" transforms the term here. Note that The Germans and The Swedes are TV episodes, and only the former even has a hatnote link to the corresponding people article. The Greek is about a fictional character. The Russians, The Polish, The Mexicans and The Norwegians are red links. The Canadians is a dab page to three obscure references, and a mention of "the people of Canada". The original use for The Americans, in 2005[33], was as a dab page for an obscure book and commentary. The argument that "The Americans" should primarily refer to Americans is generally inconsistent with usage on WP, notwithstanding The English, The Chinese, The Japanese, The Spanish and The French, which, AFAICT, are not ambiguous with any other uses, and do redirect to the respective people articles (with extremely low, near-zero, page view counts, relative to The Americans). --В²C ☎ 20:07, 22 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
True that I can't close it, as it's not a formal discussion of any sort, let alone an RM, and of course I'm involved. (The relevance of the rest escapes me. First things first.)
But if we three are in agreement that The Americans (2013 TV Series) should not be at the base name as currently, I think that's important, for many reasons, so I first wanted to confirm it with them.
I'm not proposing an RM at this stage. If we did move it back it would certainly make a point. How many wikilinks to the unambiguous name did you "fix"? They would then all point to whatever ended up at the base name. And the longer we wait, the more mislinkings (both internal and external) will be created. Lots to consider.
But maybe I'm misinterpreting quoting the others. So very interested to hear either way. And if it's in the wrong place (as I of course believe), should it be moved back? Why or why not? Andrewa (talk) 04:28, 23 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
MapReader, I made the close, not the decision. You've essentially accused me of WP:SUPERVOTE. Andrewa, thank you! -- JHunterJ (talk) 13:00, 23 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Spy thriller/drama category dispute

  1. TheUnbeholden added this article to the American Spy Thriller and Drama categories[34]
  2. MarnetteD reverted with edit summary "(rmv per WP:CATVER - there is no sourced info in the article to support the cat)" [35]
  3. TheUnbeholden reverted that with summary " I'm using the IMDB link as source" [36]
  4. Drmargi reverted that with no edit summary [37]
  5. Then I just reverted that (restoring the cats) with summary: "(Duh. The show IS a Spy Thriller/Drama. Read the lead.)" [38]

Seriously, if you read any one source on the series you'll know that it qualifies as an American spy thriller and drama. But here's the first reference in the article:

And a quick glance at the Accolades section shows that it earned numerous drama awards.

Folks, please don't be so quick to revert, especially in areas where you haven't done the 30 seconds of research to refute your own claim that "there is no sourced info in the article to support the cat".

--В²C ☎ 17:16, 22 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Before you start calling other editors out, read WP:CIVIL. The use of "duh", designed to make other editors feel stupid, is hardly civil. Then try thinking about the sequence of edits that lead to the reverts before you pass judgments. ----Dr.Margi ✉ 17:35, 22 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
All categories added are subject to WP:CATVER so there must be sourced info in the article to support the category. This must come with a verifiable reference rather than WP:OR and WP:SYNTH. The WP:BURDEN is on the person adding the genre info not on those that check their edits. MarnetteD|Talk 18:08, 22 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I apologize for the "duh" (you're right), but that's just venting frustration, not intended for anyone to feel bad. The very lead of the article, which itself must be based on sourced material, supports inclusion in these categories. It's like challenging someone adding Paris to the "Cities in France" category. --В²C ☎ 19:23, 22 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This is what WP:CATVER says: Categorization of articles must be verifiable. It should be clear from verifiable information in the article why it was placed in each of its categories. Use the {{Category unsourced}} template if you find an article in a category that is not shown by sources to be appropriate or if the article gives no clear indication for inclusion in a category.

Yes, the categorization must be verifiable. That means someone willing to verify it, can verify it from "information in the article". It doesn't mean someone unwilling to verify it can just remove the categorization. --В²C ☎ 19:34, 22 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Please read the info at WP:CATVER including "Categorization of articles must be verifiable. It should be clear from verifiable information in the article why it was placed in each of its categories." Your interpretation of verifiable is not there. MarnetteD|Talk 19:55, 22 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Excuse me? It is abundantly "clear from verifiable information in the article why it was placed in each of its categories", which I explained in my first comment in this section. Clear to anyone who bothers to read the information, that is. Of course it won't be clear to someone who doesn't read the article and is unfamiliar with the topic. --В²C ☎ 20:10, 22 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Are you saying it is not clear to you from verifiable information in the article that this series is both an American spy thriller and an American spy drama? What would make that clear to you?
By the way, your last revert was with this summary: "what part of sources in the article don't you get and no the ones on the talk page don't cover these". How does a source that explicitly refers to the series as SPY series not cover this? What do you think is missing? --В²C ☎ 20:20, 22 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The word "spy" is used 26 times in the article. The string "America" gets over 200 hits in the article. 46 hits for "drama". There are six hits for "thriller", including this SOURCED quote from a review: "The Americans is a spy thriller of the highest order, with evocative period touches and strong chemistry between its leads." Again, no one is obligated to point this out to you. That's on you as part of verifying that the claim about these cats is verifiable. --В²C ☎ 20:29, 22 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Or, let me put it this way, if that's easier. What at Homeland_(TV_series) satisfies you that that program fits in these categories? --В²C ☎ 22:55, 22 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The genres need sources. Currently there are none so even the two that are in the current lede shouldn't have categories but that is as may be. Just find verifiable sources and proceed from there. WP:OTHERSTUFF is why what is in other articles is not an argument for what is n this onw. MarnetteD|Talk 23:14, 22 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
But B2C did cite sources above. If you don't think they support the categorization, you should explain why. It seems highly intuitive to me that a review that says "The Americans is a spy thriller" would support placement in a "Spy thriller" category... Colin M (talk) 23:43, 22 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you, Colin M. I honestly can't figure out if MarnetteD is messing around or is just not being clear about what they believe is needed here. But in the spirit of AGF I can only say that saying stuff like "genres need sources; currently there are none" without explaining why the dozens of verifiable sources referenced in the article supporting "American spy thriller" and "American spy drama" don't qualify is not helpful. --В²C ☎ 23:59, 22 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
MarnetteD, I wasn't using Homeland as part of my argument. I was hoping you could point to something in it, or in any article that you believe meets whatever you think is required for this categorization, to help others understand what that is. That's what I meant by "if that's easier"... If that's easier for you to help us understand what you're looking for. --В²C ☎ 00:15, 23 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Reference 26 in the article is a NY Times article entitled The Spy Who Married Me: Keri Russell and Matthew Rhys on ‘The Americans’ which literally describes the show as "a spy thriller/domestic drama". That's a verifiable reference in the article. --В²C ☎ 00:11, 23 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

For the record, under The_Americans#Season_1 is the following referenced/verifiable quote:
  • "The Americans is a spy thriller of the highest order, with evocative period touches and strong chemistry between its leads."[1]
The lead has a referenced/verifiable citation about the series winning awards in the drama category:
Surely these are enough to justify categorization in the spy thriller and spy drama categories. It's inappropriate to revert such categorization without even a cursory check of the article which would verify they were appropriate. --В²C ☎ 17:44, 23 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
You might try adding them to the lede as it only mentions two of the three genres in the hybrid cat. Though if they are in places that you like having them in the body of the article then feel free to restore things to the version you prefer. MarnetteD|Talk 01:22, 23 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

While not explicitly related to this dispute...and I'm not sure I want to wade into this beyond to say that I don't believe IMDb should have been used to source genres per WP:RS/IMDb, which may be why that edit was reverted (it also originated with an editor who had so many issues with proper categorization that they were blocked for a time)...it may be worth noting that the verifiability of genres and the best way of handling it is currently under discussion at the Talk page for MOS:FILM, and that discussions like this push me more in the direction of "don't even list a genre without a citation supporting it". DonIago (talk) 15:57, 23 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

But where must that citation be? In this case the article is riddled with citations supporting each of these three genres (American spy, thriller, drama). I mean, surely a citation for a "best drama" award qualifies the drama, right? Quotes from multiple reviews referring to the main characters as spies qualifies it for "spy", I would think. Same with "thriller" (which almost always goes with "spy drama" anyway - can you even have a "spy drama" which is not a "thriller"?) That's where I was perplexed in this case. --В²C ☎ 16:45, 23 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think there's a clear consensus on this currently (hence the discussion at MOS), but for myself, if I see "foo" listed as a genre for the film, and I doubt that the film really is a "foo" film, and I'm inclined to argue the point, I would look through the article to see whether "foo" appears anywhere in the article in the context of describing the film thusly, and if so, whether such text is followed by a reasonable citation. If I couldn't find "foo", I would then most likely delete it, though I might CN-tag it instead depending on the circumstances. This could get more complicated if if the article text genre doesn't exactly match the lead genre, but if the two aren't explicitly related then that may be when it's time to start a discussion. If nothing else, you'll at least be able to build a precedent going forward.
Given the way this whole subject has been going though, my personal preference is swerving in the direction that each genre in the lead should be immediately followed by a citation, because there's far too much focus on fewer than five words going on here. DonIago (talk) 17:05, 23 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
What do you mean by "each genre in the lead", and how does that relate to each genre the film is categorized in? Are you saying to put a film in a genre cat, that genre has to be mentioned in the lead, and cited appropriately right there? If so, that's a much bigger hurdle than what WP:CATVER requires. --В²C ☎ 17:31, 23 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I mean that, hypothetically, if you called a film a "gothic tech-noir thriller" in the lead, then you would need citations in the lead to support each of those classifications. Categories must be supported by an article's verifiable content, so citing them in the lead would satisfy any appropriate categorizations. And I wasn't speaking to what the situation currently is, I was speaking to my personal feelings on the matter given the way genre debates seem to be popping up with distressing regularity these days. DonIago (talk) 19:47, 23 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
No, citing in the lead is generally frowned upon per WP:CITELEAD, unless the info is likely to be disputed. Film genres (certainly the one or two major ones that apply) should not be contentious. Now if someone insists on laundry-listing 4 or more of them, well, beyond the issue of "should they be cited?" is the whole problem of "the lead is a summary", not a place to list every possible category the film may fall into. —Joeyconnick (talk) 05:12, 26 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
WP:CITELEAD is a guideline, and in my experience film genres are frequently being revised, which I would consider a form of dispute. If including a cite immediately after the genre reduces the amount of editing and bickering over the genres, I'm all for it. DonIago (talk) 17:31, 26 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
But in a case like this, where you'd be hard pressed to find a cited source that does not immediately verify the categories in question are appropriate, how is the editor supposed to respond to reverts of the category inclusions? --В²C ☎ 18:14, 26 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Per WP:BURDEN, if they're being removed due to verifiability concerns, I would re-add them with citations. If they are still removed, then it's time to ask the removing editor directly to explain their rationale. DonIago (talk) 19:06, 26 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

While I have little opinion on the most appropriate categorisation, WP:SYNTH is clear that sources should not be combined to make up your own genre names. In addition, MOS:SEAOFBLUE indicates we should avoid successive blue links which give the appearance of a single link; it was the presence of the odd blue-linked term "period spy thriller", which doesn't seem to appear in RS, that drew my attention. Cambial foliage❧ 21:48, 1 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ "The Americans: Season 1 (2013)". Rotten Tomatoes. Retrieved February 26, 2015.
  2. ^ VanDerWerff, Emily (May 31, 2018). "The Americans series finale's greatest secrets, explained by its showrunners". Vox. Retrieved June 1, 2018.