- This review is transcluded from Talk:Helen Parsons Smith/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Nominator: Skyerise (talk · contribs) 14:03, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Reviewer: Mike Christie (talk · contribs) 15:23, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'll review this. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 15:23, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Images are appropriately tagged.
- Geni.com is crowd-sourced so is not a reliable source.
- Is Rivers (1967) a masters or PhD thesis? Doctoral theses are fine, but masters theses are usually not widely reviewed or cited so that wouldn't be a good source. I see you only use it in one place, where you're also citing other sources -- can it be eliminated?
- What makes billheidrick.com a reliable source?
- I have doubts about College of Thelema Publishing as a reliable source, but it seems to be being used for non-controversial material so I think it's OK.
- weiserantiquarian.com is being treated as a source for comments about the biographies of people mentioned in this article -- what would make this bookseller a reliable source for biographical data?
I'll hold off on doing the spotchecks in case any of these sources have to be removed from the article. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 15:47, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- Hi @Mike Christie:
- I've removed the Geni.com source.
- I've removed Rivers (1967) as well as it is a Master's thesis. It had been used for some bibliographic detail about one of Crowley's limited editions which Parsons Smith owned and which ended up in the Harry Ransom Center's collection; that detail was subsequently removed but the citation accidentally left behind. I'm not even sure the text was in the vicinity of where that citation ended up, so it may have just been a bad paste. Thanks for calling that to my attention.
- Well, there are two parts to billheidrick.com - part is his personal self-published material, which wouldn't be usable; but the site also hosts the Thelema Lodge Calendar, a long-standing serial publication of Thelema Lodge of Ordo Templi Orientis, Inc. As a corporate publication, I would think it would be reliable for an obituary of one of its senior members. Heidrick died in August 2023 and the site is I believe maintained as a digital archive by the Order in his honor. He was the editor of TLC for many years.
- College of Thelema's In the Continuum is used as a source in several of the books cited, including One Truth and One Spirit, Strange Angel and The Unknown God. As you rightly point out, it's only been used for minor non-controversial details that didn't happen to make it into one of cthose biographies.
- weiserantiquarian.com is only being used for bibliographic details about Parsons Smith's publications. Samuel Weiser published an edition of Crowley's Equinox; Weiser Antiquarian is a well-respected rare occult book dealer and their descriptions of books tend to provide little details other sources omit. In the place where this citation is used, there is also a citation to Readdy (2018). Readdy covers the biographical details; Weiser is used only to verify that the publications were intended as and are considered additional volumes of Crowley's Equinox. The biographies tended to leave out details that are only of interest to publishers, booksellers, and collectors. (I moved the Readdy citation a bit earlier in the sentence: it covers all the biographical information in the paragraph, while Weiser covers the bibliographic details about the books mentioned in the paragraph, i.e. that they are indeed considered part of the serial publication of the Equinox.)
- Skyerise (talk) 02:19, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- Your answers look good to me; I went through the sentences cited to billheidrick.com and I agree those are fine. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:38, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks! Skyerise (talk) 02:11, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Spotcheck. Footnote numbers refer to this version.
- FN 20 cites "However, a number of prominent members left, among them Regina Kahl and Phyllis Seckler." I don't have access to this; can you quote the supporting material?
- FN 16 cites "In June 1942, the dynamics within the Parsons household evolved as they, along with Smith and other Thelemites, established a communal living arrangement at 1003 South Orange Grove Boulevard in Pasadena. The Lodge had subdivided the house, a rambling mansion next door to the estate of Adolphus Busch,[a] into 19 apartments which were populated with a mixture of artists, writers, scientists and occultists." I don't see "1003" or "June" in the source.
- The first paragraph of "Life at Agape Lodge" is unsourced.
- FN 2 cites "During this time, Helen Smith, as she was known after her marriage to Wilfred Smith, played a pivotal role in the dissemination of Thelemic teachings and practices within the O.T.O. community. She became deeply involved in the editorial process of The Equinox, a seminal serial publication associated with O.T.O. Under her imprint, Thelema Publications, Helen oversaw the publication of several issues of "The Equinox," which served as a platform for the transmission of esoteric knowledge, rituals, and philosophical treatises central to Thelema." I don't see where the source says Helen was known as Helen Smith. More relevant is that I'm not sure the language you use here is really supported -- for example, "pivotal role in the dissemination ... within the O.T.O. community": the source says she furthered the cause during the O.T.O.'s quiescence, and then when the O.T.O. became active again she "continued to play a role in its guidance", but the language seems stronger than the source supports. I also don't see mention of more than one issue of The Equinox under her hand.
- FN 32 cites "In late April 1976, Parsons Smith and Seckler heard that Germer's widow Sascha had died. They drove to Germer's house in West Point and discovered that Sascha had died on April 1 a year earlier and that the house had been vandalized since her death, as it was almost impossible to lock properly." I don't have access to this; can you quote the supporting text?
-- Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:54, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- Sure, I think I can provide those fairly soon. I may just remove the 1003 and June details from that one paragraph. They are correct details and I surely had a source, but if I forgot to cite it there it may be hard to find those details again. Also, if you will look at the bibliography, you see that the volumes dated 1971, 1976, and 1991 are III (7), III (8) and III (3) respectively, though the later is a republication with a new introduction; but she did extend the series by two issues. Skyerise (talk) 02:11, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
